Was 1948 when God restored Israel?

[daddd]

So isreal is a church of Jewish origins .

If you want to discuss here stop misrepresenting and making stuff up whole of cloth.

I don't see God removing a church to put a new church to then have a thousand years to have said centrally located church in Jerusalem to win souls.

Who asked what you 'see'? The believers that believe after the church goes in the air to meet Jesus are not called the church.

While there is a grey area on the city Satan attacks and also the length of a thousand years ,and the abyss .I don't see that .

No idea what you are blabbering about.

When you see Jerusalem surrounded by her enemies know that your redemption draweth nigh ,the same chapter says the Jews will be taken captive .

In case this is news to you that is before they get saved and Jesus returns.

Then the problem or the third temple since it mentions the random offerings ,a prince not a king offering for the sins of the land and people,circumcision is required ,and the only priests allowed in is the sons of zadok .

Source?

Levi ,most Jews with the last name Cohen,kohn,kohen have a possible genetic link to levi but no way of knowing what the zadok lineage is.

I should care less about that...why?

So I am skeptical of futurism .the fate of isreal and it's existence

Relax. All Israel gets saved one day.

I am tied to .but that is another thread and hard to explain .most Jews that are saved have said the same.i know a saved Orthodox jewess whose son in law and his family celebrate peshac each year.she recited the prayers for a church wife peshac

The way anyone including Jews are saved is by belief in Jesus.

 

[daddd]

Your jumping around like you couldn't comprehend the question.I said where are you in this verse?

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Are you found here or not?

We won't be far away since we also will be ruling.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

We won't be far away since we also will be ruling.

You say you will.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

 

[jasonc]

A Critique of Dispensational Premillennialism | Monergism

by Anthony HoekemaALTHOUGH THE MAIN BURDEN OF THIS CHAPTER WILL BE TO give a critique of dispensational premillennialism, we may begin by mentioning some

www.monergism.com

 

[daddd]

You say you will.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

I posted several verses about us ruling with Him. Not an issue. So, are you finished groping around without a relative point yet?

 

[Vinny37]

Right. Too late to change it now

So it becomes a game of defining Israel rather than just generally accepting that the Jews as the bible calls them are what we think of as Israel. You know, the guys who started a country over in the mid east?


OK, so your vote in the matter is that God did not restore them already. I guess you feel they restored their little selves, basically. I tend to agree, but of course God allowed it and knew it would happen.


Yes they woulda coulda shoulda. But God knows they are stubborn. So He arranged a special time in the end so that no matter how obstinate they are, they will say uncle. That does not include the Jews who get saved. They already said uncle the easy way.


Even before Jesus came to earth not all Israel was Israel. God still required belief and the heart to be right.

I do. That is the ones left alive! Since the vast majority of them will be killed by the evil king in the end that will only be a remnant. It will still be 'all Israel' though. I find it kind of sad. If Israel only knew that today before the night fell they could cry out to Jesus their Messiah and He would save them and destroy all their enemies in a literal sense, etc etc!! But He knows they will not. Imagine all the nukes and weapons they would not need, and armies, and wars etc.


Anyone of any race that accepts and believes Jesus is saved and part of the Bride. He is no respecter of persons. The thing is that there are special promises for Israel regarding the land. Those promises are not for me. I don't want that land, thank you very much. I am happy Jesus and us will rule from there along with the (saved) Jews who live there one day. I am also tickled pink that it seems likely we will live up in New Jerusalem and just commute down to the work of helping Him rule earth here.

I do not fully understood you, but see bits of agreement/disagreement. Without being sarky, here’s some response.

Mentioning multiple Israels it’s not a game, but a biblical insight. In fact, biblically, the Jews fought against Israel. The term Israel is a code-word for God’s root plan. Many clues exist. Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would be Israel. Jesus saw himself as summarising Israel: eg he was its temple; the crowd rightly greeted him as King David’s son; his ‘coronation’ (hupsos) would be to globally draw all peoples to himself (global mission), the light even to the gentiles. His followers were the true twelve-tribed Israel. Peter—and, once converted, the Pharisee Saul—saw the messianic community as twelve-tribed Israel, and their gentile historian Luke so noted it: adding Matthias made Israel public for the Day of Pentecost. The church became, as was messiah, the light to the gentiles (Ac.13:47). Wayne Grudem (Systematic Theology) covers it well the NT usage of Israel themes for the panethnic church.

One thing in my dispensationalist years that puzzled me, was the idea that multiple generations of ethnic Jews would apparently not be saved (by God’s design), but the lucky nth generation all would be (by God’s design). Would he only save when it suited him? Was that love? I felt like Luther: if the pope can liberate all from purgatory (if assuming purgatory to be bad), why liberate penny by penny, person by person?

Rethinking in term of salvation Levels, I can understand God hardening ethnic Jewry as a people, from Level 3 (Christian salvation), without hardening them from Level 4 (Ultimate salvation): apropos heaven (L4), they will be treated exactly like any other human beings, race irrelevant. As you rightly said, God is no respecter of persons. I’d add that he’s no respecter of races, though happily agree that he can make race plans, eg hardening/unhardening. My eschatology (no longer Historicism; never Futurism) also differs from yours.

Regarding the Promised Land, I’d recommend Elmer A Marten’s God’s Design. [Land] is a biblical motif, which carries a prophetic package far beyond mere geography. Christians are in the true (αληθινος) Promised Land/New Jerusalem (L3), and await the next Level (L4): maranatha.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

I posted several verses about us ruling with Him. Not an issue. So, are you finished groping around without a relative point yet?

If you say so Timothy.

Yet you have not suffered for his name.You didn't die for your testimony of Jesus.Have you even spent one day in prison because of your testimony of Jesus?


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years



Mathew 5:11
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Did they really persecute you as they did the prophets before you?Do you even know who Jesus is talking to in Mathew 5:11?



Somehow you believe Revelation is being addressed to you,when in actuality it was written by and addressed to those living in tribulation.


9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


But you insist the message contained in it addressing those in tribulation is for you.How did you come to the conclusion that you have suffered for Christs name and your in tribulation?

 

[miamited]

Verse?

I take it you mean the Jews? He can use the saved Jews. I haven't seen Him use Israel so much. You?

Yes! May 14,1948!!

Sound's like someone isn't aware of the purpose of God in all of this.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Prophetic Evidence For The Return Of Israel

You are about to read one of the most fascinating and remarkable prophecies in the Bible. What makes it even more remarkable is what it implies. For when we realize how precisely this prophecy has been fulfilled after 2,500 years, we must realize all the Bible prophecies concerning Israel and...

evidence-for-the-bible.com

Check it out! I actually read one teacher's take on it where he actually determined what day it would happen in 1948. He uses this same methodology, but figures out exactly what day the discipline started and comes to exactly! May 14, 1948.

It's really pretty awesome, but it takes one's understanding that God is still in control of His people, Israel.

Then we also have Daniel's account of the 70 sevens, which tells us exactly when Jesus would be here. All perfectly aligned with the days that Jesus walked among us.

God bless,
Ted

 

[daddd]

I do not fully understood you, but see bits of agreement/disagreement. Without being sarky, here’s some response.

Mentioning multiple Israels it’s not a game, but a biblical insight. In fact,

OK so I'll pick a few verses and you tell us what slot they needs to fit in.

Ezekiel 38:14
Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God ; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

Ezekiel 38:8
because in a few years, I will command you to invade Israel, a country that was ruined by war. It was deserted for a long time, but its people have returned from the foreign nations where they once lived. The Israelites now live in peace in the mountains of their own land.

biblically, the Jews fought against Israel. The term Israel is a code-word for God’s root plan. Many clues exist. Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would be Israel.

That was where He was born and lived.

Jesus saw himself as summarising Israel: eg he was its temple; the crowd rightly greeted him as King David’s son; his ‘coronation’ (hupsos) would be to globally draw all peoples to himself (global mission), the light even to the gentiles. His followers were the true twelve-tribed Israel. Peter—and, once converted, the Pharisee Saul—saw the messianic community as twelve-tribed Israel, and their gentile historian Luke so noted it: adding Matthias made Israel public for the Day of Pentecost. The church became, as was messiah, the light to the gentiles (Ac.13:47). Wayne Grudem (Systematic Theology) covers it well the NT usage of Israel themes for the panethnic church.

The tribes of Israel were a part of things. History. How would Hod not include that in the way He sees Israel? (such as in Revelation) Jesus came from the line of David so He was a son of David via Mary. He was also the son of God.

One thing in my dispensationalist years that puzzled me, was the idea that multiple generations of ethnic Jews would apparently not be saved (by God’s design), but the lucky nth generation all would be (by God’s design). Would he only save when it suited him?

That is not what the Bible says. All people can believe on Him. No luck involved. Many Jews do and did. All Israel will one day as well. (the ones left alive in the end)

Rethinking in term of salvation Levels, I can understand God hardening ethnic Jewry as a people, from Level 3 (Christian salvation), without hardening them from Level 4 (Ultimate salvation): apropos heaven (L4), they will be treated exactly like any other human beings, race irrelevant. As you rightly said, God is no respecter of persons. I’d add that he’s no respecter of races, though happily agree that he can make race plans, eg hardening/unhardening. My eschatology (no longer Historicism; never Futurism) also differs from yours.

I do not recall Jesus saying He came to save level one two or etc etc level people or Jews. That sounds like some theory invented in some seminary to try and sound intelligent or something.

Christians are in the true (αληθινος) Promised Land/New Jerusalem (L3), and await the next Level (L4): maranatha.

No. I am not the land of promise for the Jews. That land was well marked out and defined. God did not tell Abbraham to go up and camp in your back yard or mine, because we are the promised land. God did not say my cupboard was a land of milk and honey. God did not order ancient Israel to imagine where future Christians woulld live and invade that...etc.

 

[daddd]

If you say so Timothy.

Yet you have not suffered for his name.You didn't die for your testimony of Jesus.Have you even spent one day in prison because of your testimony of Jesus?


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years



Mathew 5:11
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Did they really persecute you as they did the prophets before you?Do you even know who Jesus is talking to in Mathew 5:11?

All that live godly suffer. You disagree? Sorry if I do not share your works trip and martyr complex.

Somehow you believe Revelation is being addressed to you,when in actuality it was written by and addressed to those living in tribulation.

It is also for us. Prophesy is profitable. This is news?

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.


But you insist the message contained in it addressing those in tribulation is for you.How did you come to the conclusion that you have suffered for Christs name and your in tribulation?

Some people cut out verses written in the past and applicable only to the past, and the future prophesy as applicable only to future generations. Others realize that God speaks to men of all ages through His living word.

 

[daddd]

Yes! May 14,1948!!

So did He use them to blow up the King David hotel and etc? Did God want them to make thousands of Christian believes leave the area? etc? Sorry. They are not holy now. They are children of promise so they one day will be saved, many of them.

Sound's like someone isn't aware of the purpose of God in all of this.

God bless,
Ted

Sounds like someone invents purposes and pins it on God. God's purpose is that they must believe in Jesus. He is working on that ans soon they will face the time of Jacob's trouble which will finish the process. After they repent and are saved, then Jesus rules them and protects them etc.

 

[miamited]

HI daddd

So did He use them to blow up the King David hotel and etc? Did God want them to make thousands of Christian believes leave the area? etc? Sorry. They are not holy now. They are children of promise so they one day will be saved, many of them.

I'm sorry, you lost me. Did He use them (who?) to blow up the hotel? And I honestly have no idea what you're referring to about 'thousands of Christian believes leave the area'.

All I'm saying is that God's word, through His prophets, has given us the timeline that matches exactly the day that Israel became a sovereign nation again. Now, all the rest of that kitchen sink's worth of stuff that you're throwing on the wall to see if it sticks really has no application to that statement.

Now, if this is your way of saying, "Well, they didn't deserve to be restored because they kicked a bunch of christians out of Israel and they blew up a hotel!", you can say that, but it would have absolutely no bearing on whether or not God's word does tell us when Israel would be restored, and has been pretty precise about it.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Shilohsfoal]

All that live godly suffer. You disagree? Sorry if I do not share your works trip and martyr complex.


It is also for us. Prophesy is profitable. This is news?


Some people cut out verses written in the past and applicable only to the past, and the future prophesy as applicable only to future generations. Others realize that God speaks to men of all ages through His living word.

It's not my works trip martyr complex.
It's Christs,it's called taking up a cross and bearing it.

Mathew 5:11
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.


well,your not going to be able to understand so I'm wasting time here.Time to move on.

 

[daddd]

HI daddd

I'm sorry, you lost me. Did He use them (who?) to blow up the hotel? And I honestly have no idea what you're referring to about 'thousands of Christian believes leave the area'.

Palestinian Christians. Apparently 700,000 people of whom a good percentage were Christian.
"In 1948 more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Palestine's Arab population – were expelled or fled from their homes,[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] during the 1948 Palestine war.[9] The exodus was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba,[10][11] in which between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed, village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme to prevent Palestinians returning,[12] and other sites subject to Hebraization of Palestinian place names,[13] and also refers to the wider period of war itself and the subsequent oppression up to the present day.[14]"

1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Many had to leave the area. As for the terrorism in the early days by the Irgun gang, how would you not know about that?

King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

All I'm saying is that God's word, through His prophets, has given us the timeline that matches exactly the day that Israel became a sovereign nation again.

No. That is not given. You read that in.

Now, if this is your way of saying, "Well, they didn't deserve to be restored because they kicked a bunch of christians out of Israel and they blew up a hotel!", you can say that, but it would have absolutely no bearing on whether or not God's word does tell us when Israel would be restored, and has been pretty precise about it.

God bless,
Ted

Hey no one deserves salvation, all nations have sins. Modern Israel is no exception. God is not sending seven years of trials to help them finally get saved because they are good or just or worthy.

 

[Vinny37]

OK so I'll pick a few verses and you tell us what slot they needs to fit in.

Ezekiel 38:14
Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God ; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

Ezekiel 38:8
because in a few years, I will command you to invade Israel, a country that was ruined by war. It was deserted for a long time, but its people have returned from the foreign nations where they once lived. The Israelites now live in peace in the mountains of their own land.


That was where He was born and lived.

The tribes of Israel were a part of things. History. How would Hod not include that in the way He sees Israel? (such as in Revelation) Jesus came from the line of David so He was a son of David via Mary. He was also the son of God.


That is not what the Bible says. All people can believe on Him. No luck involved. Many Jews do and did. All Israel will one day as well. (the ones left alive in the end)

I do not recall Jesus saying He came to save level one two or etc etc level people or Jews. That sounds like some theory invented in some seminary to try and sound intelligent or something.

No. I am not the land of promise for the Jews. That land was well marked out and defined. God did not tell Abbraham to go up and camp in your back yard or mine, because we are the promised land. God did not say my cupboard was a land of milk and honey. God did not order ancient Israel to imagine where future Christians woulld live and invade that...etc.

Revisiting our interaction, I fear lest I waste your time. I sought but to give my tuppence response to your initial post, and fear losing a pound. If you really wish to delve deeply into such matters, the books I have listed can, among many more—such as Johnston & Walker’ The Land of Promise—prove useful in that quest. I wish you all the best.

 

[miamited]

Palestinian Christians. Apparently 700,000 people of whom a good percentage were Christian.
"In 1948 more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Palestine's Arab population – were expelled or fled from their homes,[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] during the 1948 Palestine war.[9] The exodus was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba,[10][11] in which between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed, village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme to prevent Palestinians returning,[12] and other sites subject to Hebraization of Palestinian place names,[13] and also refers to the wider period of war itself and the subsequent oppression up to the present day.[14]"

1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Many had to leave the area. As for the terrorism in the early days by the Irgun gang, how would you not know about that?

King David Hotel bombing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No. That is not given. You read that in.

Hey no one deserves salvation, all nations have sins. Modern Israel is no exception. God is not sending seven years of trials to help them finally get saved because they are good or just or worthy.

Hi daddd

I still don't understand how you think that any of this has any bearing on the meaning and intent of God's word. BTW, if you work on your reading comprehension, you'll see where it says that the majority of those people, whoever they were, didn't leave because Israel became a nation, but because they were in fear of the consequences of the 'Palestine war' that led up to the nation's sovereignty.

"In 1948 more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Palestine's Arab population – were expelled or fled from their homes,[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] during the 1948 Palestine war.

Notice how your link ends that sentence, 'during the 1948 Palestine war. The war was over when, on May 14, 1948 Israel was granted it's sovereignty by agreement of nations in the . The Palestine war actually started in 1947 and is what led the nations to come up with the Balfour compact.

No. That is not given. You read that in.

I'm sorry, did I not the post the link with the math? It's actually a mathematical computation that comes from the words of God in His Scriptures. The prophecy starts out just like the prophecy of Jesus. This will be a sign TO THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. So, this is going to be a sign to Israel, not to the gentiles, although just as with the signs of Jesus, Gentiles can, if they study it, understand it.

Just as the prophecy of Daniel 9 turns into a mathematical computation to understand when Jesus was going to be here.

However, if you don't see it that way, as I said, I'm all ears to hear your explanation of that passage in Ezekiel.

God bless,
Ted

 

[daddd]

Revisiting our interaction, I fear lest I waste your time. I sought but to give my tuppence response to your initial post, and fear losing a pound. If you really wish to delve deeply into such matters, the books I have listed can, among many more—such as Johnston & Walker’ The Land of Promise—prove useful in that quest. I wish you all the best.

So nothing to post on topic then. Fine. Run along.

 

[daddd]

Hi daddd

I still don't understand how you think that any of this has any bearing on the meaning and intent of God's word. BTW, if you work on your reading comprehension, you'll see where it says that the majority of those people, whoever they were, didn't leave because Israel became a nation, but because they were in fear of the consequences of the 'Palestine war' that led up to the nation's sovereignty.

Whatever. They used to live there. They had to leave. Not like Israel welcomed the Christians back into their land and apologized or anything. Yes terrorism was involved in getting Israel started as well. All that to say that they are not perfect or presently saved and under the rule of Jesus. No sense denying it. They are another secular nation in this world.

"In 1948 more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Palestine's Arab population – were expelled or fled from their homes,[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] during the 1948 Palestine war.

Notice how your link ends that sentence, 'during the 1948 Palestine war. The war was over when, on May 14, 1948 Israel was granted it's sovereignty by agreement of nations in the . The Palestine war actually started in 1947 and is what led the nations to come up with the Balfour compact.

So? They had to leave because of the new country that was forming. Is that any way to treat God's people?

I'm sorry, did I not the post the link with the math? It's actually a mathematical computation that comes from the words of God in His Scriptures. The prophecy starts out just like the prophecy of Jesus. This will be a sign TO THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL. So, this is going to be a sign to Israel, not to the gentiles, although just as with the signs of Jesus, Gentiles can, if they study it, understand it.

Just as the prophecy of Daniel 9 turns into a mathematical computation to understand when Jesus was going to be here.

However, if you don't see it that way, as I said, I'm all ears to hear your explanation of that passage in Ezekiel.

God bless,
Ted

I don't think you posted it in this thread. I have seen someone make such a case before though. Basically they are on thin ice with it, and it depends on certain assumptions, if I recall.

 

[miamited]

Hi daddd

They had to leave.

Well, actually the article allows that a lot of them left voluntary because they didn't want to live in a war zone. Understandable certainly. But that doesn't support what you seem to be inferring, that Israel or the Jews kicked christians out of the area. That just is not a true statement, based on the evidence of your supporting article. And as far as I am aware, it just isn't a true statement at all.

All that to say that they are not perfect or presently saved and under the rule of Jesus. No sense denying it.

No sense in denying what? You're off in left field somewhere if you think that I've been claiming that the people of Israel are good. But what people do, how people are, has no bearing on what the word of God says. I have no idea how well you've been reading my posts, but I've never made the argument that you're claiming I'm making. All I said, in answer to the question about Israel becoming a nation in 1948, was that there were prophecies that worked that date out. I made no claim as to the goodness of any people or the righteousness before God of any people. I just said that God's word says that Israel will be restored and the two places of Scripture that I brought in to the discussion, that deal with the discipline of God towards His people, point to the date of May 14, 1948.

So, go. your way if you can't understand what I'm saying to you, but really, your thoughts on this seem to be already preconceived and you're just spouting off talking points, but they have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

So? They had to leave because of the new country that was forming. Is that any way to treat God's people?

What!?!?!?!? You just make these things up to support your position do you? What in the world does how christians are treated in the middle east have to do with a prophecy that God caused to be written about 2700 years before the event came to pass? You really need to work on your skills here in staying on point.

I don't think you posted it in this thread.

Or you could go back to post #189 and read it!!!!!!!

God bless,
Ted