Was Paul always correct?

[Cornelius]

You should study the work of Ivan Panin if you really want to know if the Bible is the true Word of God.
If we think it is just about morality, we are not understanding the Bible. The Bible is so much more. It is the way to eternal life. It is the very words of Life.(Zoe) If we change of leave out, we loose out.

Please read these links prayerfully and allow the Lord to establish your feet on the Rock, so that you will be unmoved by anything that is not from Him.

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... umericskjv

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... whollyholy

 

[Sound Silence]

You should study the work of Ivan Panin if you really want to know if the Bible is the true Word of God.
If we think it is just about morality, we are not understanding the Bible. The Bible is so much more. It is the way to eternal life. It is the very words of Life.(Zoe) If we change of leave out, we loose out.

Please read these links prayerfully and allow the Lord to establish your feet on the Rock, so that you will be unmoved by anything that is not from Him.

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... umericskjv

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... whollyholy

Okay, you are obviously misunderstanding everything I said.
I seriously don't know what kind of jump you made to get from my comment, to your response.

And by the way, if I want to know more about the Bible, I will read the Bible, not some guy's thoughts on the Bible.

 

[Panin]

"Sound Silence

Did I say that?

You implied it. I don't know why else you'd bring that up

I didn't imply that at all. You implied it in your question to me.

 

[Panin]

If Paul isn't correct, I need to rip out over half of my New Testament.

I think Paul has some marvelous advice—I would read his letters carefully. That doesn’t mean I believe he was right about everything. My pastor isn’t right about everything, I don’t think. That doesn’t mean I don’t learn things from him.

Lol, your pastor wasnt inspired by God to write the bible either.

 

[Panin]

When God said stone a woman to death for adultry was God wrong?

"when that which is perfect has come", means the finished word of God the finished 66 books, after that no more prophecy will come, or is required. So everyhing that Paul says in the inpsired word of God, is God speaking through Him, so no, Paul was never wrong.

Does that mean you have to agree with Him? No. But you are disagreeing with God, not Paul.

Why do you believe that disagreeing with Paul is the same as disagreeing with God?

Because Pauls words, the ones recorded in the books of the bible, where given to Him by God, IE Inspired by God, all scripture is God breathed, meaning they are all Gods words.

Thats why.


A christian disagreeing with scripture is a christian disgreeing with God. It's another story if you are a not a Christian of course and it's also another story if it's a lack of understanding as opposed to a flat out disagreement, which is most often the case. IE a lack of understanding.

Are we to understand that PAul was a male chauvanist pig? I think you would find us all in disagreement with him, if that where truly the case.

 

[Sound Silence]

"Sound Silence

Did I say that?

You implied it. I don't know why else you'd bring that up

I didn't imply that at all. You implied it in your question to me.

Then why did you even bring that up?

A christian disagreeing with scripture is a christian disgreeing with God. It's another story if you are a not a Christian of course and it's also another story if it's a lack of understanding as opposed to a flat out disagreement, which is most often the case. IE a lack of understanding.

And how about a Christian disagreeing with other Christian on their views of Scripture?

Unless you think you absolutely know God's intentions.

 

[Panin]

"Sound Silence

Did I say that?

You implied it. I don't know why else you'd bring that up

I didn't imply that at all. You implied it in your question to me.

Then why did you even bring that up?

A christian disagreeing with scripture is a christian disgreeing with God. It's another story if you are a not a Christian of course and it's also another story if it's a lack of understanding as opposed to a flat out disagreement, which is most often the case. IE a lack of understanding.

And how about a Christian disagreeing with other Christian on their views of Scripture?

Unless you think you absolutely know God's intentions.

I brought it up because of the implication by some that Paul and God are some how anti women and therefore woman need to be feminists to somehow fight against God for their rights.

In answer to your second question. If I had a problem with Christians disgreeing with other Christians, I wouldn't be here discussing differences with other Christians.

However for a Christian to flat out disagree with the word of God and try to validate a reason for their disgreement, well, that doesn't even warrant discussion.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Do you accept that women must be in subjection to their own husbands?

No.

Do you know that you do not only disagree with Paul but also with Peter than? because they both agree on this issue and both have written it.Now it is true you may not always agree with your pastor- however, that can be that either you do not know yet what He does, or that he is wrong BUT your pastor is not an aposlte, chosen by Jesus Christ from the beginning entrusted to raise Him His church and write His word for the teaching of the rest of all beleivers who would ever live.-It is distrubing that you do not have any deep rooted love and affection and respect for the word of God yet but i pray that God deliver that to you- Either that OR you did have it, and some false teachers came and ground it out of you with their heresies.

Anyways Peter says: 1Pe 3:1 ¶ Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1Pe 3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.
1Pe 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
1Pe 3:4 But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
1Pe 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
1Pe 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Now maybe you disagree with paul AND peter, do you disagree with the torah which gives the holy testimony of sarah who obeyed her husband?

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I disagree. Read the following Scripture from Psalms:

Happy shall he be who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rock! Psalms 137:9 RSV

I think we would be a sorry lot if we went over to Afghanistan and started throwing children against the rocks.

afghanastan is NOT the daughter of babylon- Psa 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy [shall he be], that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
Psa 137:9 Happy [shall he be], that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

This is not about countries or individuals just doing this- it is about the righteous judgement of babylon by God.


I am however beginning to understand what is going on here: You have a problem with women submitting themselves to their heads(husbands) and you likewise who are called to be the wife of the Lord are to submit to Him as your head, but you have the same problem submitting to the Lord because when you read His word to you as His bride, you do not believe what it says but are in rebellion against Him.

If a wife is to submit, that means you are likewise to submit but you read the word and judge the Lord and therefore it cannot put your flesh under subjection and renew your mind.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

I struggle with statements like...

You do not have the Word of God , because you do not know what it is.

...mainly because when you are dealing with issues of interpretation it is not as simple as it is the Word of God so it is true. That may be the case but it is true in context and through thought and deliberation on exactly what the author meant to convey. This cannot be avoided. We must also understand that scholars debate these things still today after thousands of years. There is not one clear cut answer for some portions of the bible as far as we understand it. It was clear cut for the author but we can't reach out and ask the author what was meant. We can however pray about it and discuss the issues and understand that some will have different interpretations.

Take 2 Corinthians 6:14 for example...

14Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

What exactly does this mean? The word yoke means " a clamp or similar piece that embraces two parts to hold or unite them in position". In other words, do not unite, bond or come together with unbelievers. One might read this literally without understanding the context of which it was written that all believers should avoid unbelievers. That is not what Paul was writing about. Let's take a look at some additional text in chapter 6 for the whole context.

15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."[c]
17"Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you."[d]
18"I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."

Paul is referring to a specific set of individuals that at the time were following a set of Gnostic principles regarding Jesus. They felt he was not of flesh and blood and was never a real man. This contradicted the core of Christianity and was starting to take hold in the city. Paul was directly combatting this and warning believers to not be swayed by their rhetoric and as a result to not "bond" with them. Paul is not saying that in today's world we should not converse or interact with unbelievers.

I think this is a great example of where discernment, context and interpretation is needed prior to jumping to conclusions that the literal translation and that the Word of God is telling us to stay away from unbelievers. As believers we have to come together and discuss scripture to better understand it and know what God is trying to tell us. Telling someone they don't have it and they should get it doesn't really help us.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[elijah23]

Happy shall he be who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rock! Psalms 137:9 RSV

Nor is the Psalmist suggesting that we do such a thing, nor is God saying that we should.

Rather, the Psalmist is crying out in anger because of the captivity.

This is being intellectually dishonest with the Scriptures to pluck out a verse here or there and attempt to use it without understanding the context and the type of speech (in this case poetry, and a psalm of lament - if I remember correctly).

I disagree. I think that is exactly what the psalmist is suggesting.

 

[elijah23]

The simple answer is that my God is able to pass His Word throughout History through men inspired by the Holy Spirit so that the truth is available from one generation to the next. Is your God able to do the same?

Yes. The Lord will kick us in the shins if he needs to, not because he hates us, but because he loves us.

 

[elijah23]

You are spreading destruction regarding the Word of God.


Jesus and Paul was not kind in all situations .

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn from you. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

When you touch the Word of God like you are doing, you are touching the very rock on which Christians stand.Plus, to leave you , would not be love, because you are not standing on or in the truth.If I hated you, I would just leave you where you are.

If I told everybody what they wanted to hear, I would be popular. I do not seek to be popular. I seek only to be a witness to what the Lord has taught me.

 

[elijah23]

Lol, your pastor wasnt inspired by God to write the bible either.

Might a pastor be inspired to interpret the Bible?

 

[elijah23]

Because Pauls words, the ones recorded in the books of the bible, where given to Him by God, IE Inspired by God, all scripture is God breathed, meaning they are all Gods words.

Thats why.


A christian disagreeing with scripture is a christian disgreeing with God. It's another story if you are a not a Christian of course and it's also another story if it's a lack of understanding as opposed to a flat out disagreement, which is most often the case. IE a lack of understanding.

Are we to understand that PAul was a male chauvanist pig? I think you would find us all in disagreement with him, if that where truly the case.

Do you have a personal relationship with the Lord?

 

[Menno]

Elijah,

Who get's to decide what we should pick and choose to follow in Scripture?

It is perhaps that you do not like what Paul wrote, because you do not fully understand what Paul wrote? Is it possible that cultural understandings NOW are clouding what Scripture says?

Which influences which? Scripture influence culture, or culture influence Scripture?

Lastly, if you are suggesting that we can ignore some of Paul's writings - then what do you say to a non-believer that says, "well, I do not like it when Jesus said 'I'm the way the truth and the life, you can only come to the father through me.', I think I will ignore it like you ignore what Paul wrote."?

 

[Benoni]

I agree. God is not so sexist.

I have trouble believing Paul was correct when he told women not to speak in church and that wives should submit to the wills of their husbands. What do you think?

 

[elijah23]

Do you know that you do not only disagree with Paul but also with Peter than? because they both agree on this issue and both have written it.Now it is true you may not always agree with your pastor- however, that can be that either you do not know yet what He does, or that he is wrong BUT your pastor is not an aposlte, chosen by Jesus Christ from the beginning entrusted to raise Him His church and write His word for the teaching of the rest of all beleivers who would ever live.-It is distrubing that you do not have any deep rooted love and affection and respect for the word of God yet but i pray that God deliver that to you- Either that OR you did have it, and some false teachers came and ground it out of you with their heresies.

Anyways Peter says: 1Pe 3:1 ¶ Likewise, ye wives, [be] in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1Pe 3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation [coupled] with fear.
1Pe 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
1Pe 3:4 But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
1Pe 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
1Pe 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Now maybe you disagree with paul AND peter, do you disagree with the torah which gives the holy testimony of sarah who obeyed her husband?

I could come up with hypothetical cases such as:

If a man orders his wife to help him rob a bank, should she comply?

Perhaps it would be best if, within reason, a husband and wife be submissive to each other.

 

[Benoni]

Perhaps the clouded understanding of the culture of Paul's time clouded His Words. In this case culture influnce scripture.

God is not a sexist He is a spirit….

The letter killeth, and God purposely pleased those divine words in the Bible to say something to us deep and profound; but we have a tendency to hear and see what some man made system believes and ignore the fact that God’s spirit always has a deep and profound message it we (singular) have an ear to hear.

Like I just said God is a spirit; neither male nor female; just like Adam before God took the rib from Adam and created Eve.

When God speaks to us He uses what I will call spiritual language, symbolisms, examples, parables to show us something beyond the letter that killeth.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)

For this reason so many literalize God’s Word, because their minds are earthy, carnal or religious; but look a little closer; I like the word see: (Gk) with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable See: Strong’s NT:3700

Masculine is always spirit or spiritual (man child) God is always referred in the masculine with the exception of one of his names (El Shaddai) which is feminine (sorry to break some wineskins)? It has been said there are over two hundred different names for God is scripture; a name speaks of name, nature, character and authority. God is one but has many different natures.

But look at the feminine side of scripture we have the soul, the church, Baby lon. My point a man can have a soulish type ministry spiritually speaking.

But I have meet women who were masculine for their ministries were spirit.

Elijah,

Who get's to decide what we should pick and choose to follow in Scripture?

It is perhaps that you do not like what Paul wrote, because you do not fully understand what Paul wrote? Is it possible that cultural understandings NOW are clouding what Scripture says?

Which influences which? Scripture influence culture, or culture influence Scripture?

Lastly, if you are suggesting that we can ignore some of Paul's writings - then what do you say to a non-believer that says, "well, I do not like it when Jesus said 'I'm the way the truth and the life, you can only come to the father through me.', I think I will ignore it like you ignore what Paul wrote."?

 

[elijah23]

afghanastan is NOT the daughter of babylon- Psa 137:8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy [shall he be], that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
Psa 137:9 Happy [shall he be], that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

This is not about countries or individuals just doing this- it is about the righteous judgement of babylon by God.


I am however beginning to understand what is going on here: You have a problem with women submitting themselves to their heads(husbands) and you likewise who are called to be the wife of the Lord are to submit to Him as your head, but you have the same problem submitting to the Lord because when you read His word to you as His bride, you do not believe what it says but are in rebellion against Him.

If a wife is to submit, that means you are likewise to submit but you read the word and judge the Lord and therefore it cannot put your flesh under subjection and renew your mind.

My point was that the Bible is sometimes in error, in my opinion. I think it would be an evil thing to throw an innocent child against the rocks.