WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[Rajesh Sahu]

I wonder if we Christians have a clear idea of what it means to fulfill the law.

Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.
Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "

But we know that we no longer keep the Civil Law or the Ceremonial Law...
We keep only the Moral Law,,,,the 10 Commandments.

So:
1. What are the Ceremonial Laws?
2. What are the Civil Laws?

Did Jesus come to abolish? And what would that mean?
Or did Jesus come to fulfill? And what would that mean?

And, to help along and begin...I'll post the following:


It is especially important to note how the word is used in Matthew 5:17. In this context, “abolish” is set in opposition to “fulfill.” Christ came “…not to abolish, but to fulfill.” Jesus did not come to this earth for the purpose of acting as an opponent of the law. His goal was not to prevent its fulfillment. Rather, He revered it, loved it, obeyed it, and brought it to fruition. He fulfilled the law’s prophetic utterances regarding Himself (Luke 24:44). Christ fulfilled the demands of the Mosaic law, which called for perfect obedience under threat of a “curse” (see Galatians 3:10,13). In this sense, the law’s divine design will ever have an abiding effect. It will always accomplish the purpose for which it was given.



If, however, the law of Moses bears the same relationship to men today, in terms of its binding status, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what He came to do. On the other hand, if the Lord did accomplish His goal, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal institution today. Further, if the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Christ—and thus remains as a binding legal system for today—then it is not just partially binding. Rather, it is a totally compelling system.

source: https://ekklesiaburundi.wordpress.c...-it-mean-to-fulfill-the-law-by-lois-tverberg/


I hope we can understand this more deeply through discussion.....I'm always eager to learn.



WIP

Sister Wondering, Brothers and sisters,

I write this post to express and voice my thoughts on why obedience is crucial and vital to Christian salvation.

This will be a longish post ( possibly broken into three or four consecutive posts to accommodate the word / character restrictions).

I would sincerely implore you brethren to bear with it. Please read it thoroughly before responding. Because unless you read the whole post ( all combined) you won't be able to truly get what I'm trying to say . So I pray for your patience and forbearance in the matter--- and even more fervently since I believe the last times are upon mankind /\

Secondly, before I'm judged for my views, please take into consideration whatever I write, points to Christ our Savior who is the Word Himself, the architect and author of our salvation . I live of , for, and by Jesus Christ. I'm the German Shephard of the Lord, the one-man dog , who gets very disturbed, when the Lord's thunder is taken away or His teachings watered down and twisted to craft a new doctrine - far different than what the Messiah taught.

And unfortunately I see that has happened, albeit it went largely unnoticed, ignored if you will, by the Churches in the past 500 years. A much watered down gospel , largely based on what Paul taught , the Solafide doctrine of Saved by Grace, alone through Faith alone in Christ alone, took shape and is being rampantly taught in Churches across the globe . The doctrine sounds really cool huh , but it's not what Christ the author of human salvation, taught . In fact it richly contradicts the Messiah’s rules for salvation.

Before I explain how , I wish to say something. I’m pouring my heart out—its my take--- what I get, upon reading Bible again and again over last 15 years – much like many of you have also.



I do not expect everyone to agree with me, but if it strikes a chord in you then I’m glad /\ If it does not I respect your views/ choice, and gracefully accept it as a personal failure of not being able to successfully communicate what I wanted to. I also wish to profusely thank this website and all its members moderators owners and adminsitartors for providing me/ us a chance to share our views( backed with scripture) so that there may be an all-round edification



Secondly everything I’m saying here, I’m backing up with scriptures mostly of the Lord, and several other NT writers. None of it is “my feelings” or “I feel”. It’s backed by sound scripture--- every word I have put here. And hence merits attention and research. If I am in error please correct me, I’m a student of the Word and like/ appreciate edification. However would appreciate more of Non pauline scripture
What I discovered did not happen out of some research or someone teaching me or I reading it somewhere. It happened here. On this very website in or around the month of October 2017. Inadvertently and spontaneously.
In those days I was confined to bed with a rare ailment called SIBO ( I still suffer from it , it's with me for life, and will likely take my life some day but symptoms have slightly reduced over 3 years, praise the Lord . The doctors could not help. They couldn’t even diagnose . I had to finally tell them it’s SIBO after all tests were done . They saw nothing in blood X-RAYS colonoscopy and endoscopy
Yet I was suffering to death . All mysterious . Anyway long story short, I couldn’t go to my regular church for months and that's how I came to our website. Lord's grace .

End of Part one-- post continued in next part 2)

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Sister Wondering, Brothers and sisters,

I write this post to express and voice my thoughts on why obedience is crucial and vital to Christian salvation.

This will be a longish post ( possibly broken into three or four consecutive posts to accommodate the word / character restrictions).

I would sincerely implore you brethren to bear with it. Please read it thoroughly before responding. Because unless you read the whole post ( all combined) you won't be able to truly get what I'm trying to say . So I pray for your patience and forbearance in the matter--- and even more fervently since I believe the last times are upon mankind /\

Secondly, before I'm judged for my views, please take into consideration whatever I write, points to Christ our Savior who is the Word Himself, the architect and author of our salvation . I live of , for, and by Jesus Christ. I'm the German Shephard of the Lord, the one-man dog , who gets very disturbed, when the Lord's thunder is taken away or His teachings watered down and twisted to craft a new doctrine - far different than what the Messiah taught.

And unfortunately I see that has happened, albeit it went largely unnoticed, ignored if you will, by the Churches in the past 500 years. A much watered down gospel , largely based on what Paul taught , the Solafide doctrine of Saved by Grace, alone through Faith alone in Christ alone, took shape and is being rampantly taught in Churches across the globe . The doctrine sounds really cool huh , but it's not what Christ the author of human salvation, taught . In fact it richly contradicts the Messiah’s rules for salvation.

Before I explain how , I wish to say something. I’m pouring my heart out—its my take--- what I get, upon reading Bible again and again over last 15 years – much like many of you have also.



I do not expect everyone to agree with me, but if it strikes a chord in you then I’m glad /\ If it does not I respect your views/ choice, and gracefully accept it as a personal failure of not being able to successfully communicate what I wanted to. I also wish to profusely thank this website and all its members moderators owners and adminsitartors for providing me/ us a chance to share our views( backed with scripture) so that there may be an all-round edification



Secondly everything I’m saying here, I’m backing up with scriptures mostly of the Lord, and several other NT writers. None of it is “my feelings” or “I feel”. It’s backed by sound scripture--- every word I have put here. And hence merits attention and research. If I am in error please correct me, I’m a student of the Word and like/ appreciate edification. However would appreciate more of Non pauline scripture
What I discovered did not happen out of some research or someone teaching me or I reading it somewhere. It happened here. On this very website in or around the month of October 2017. Inadvertently and spontaneously.
In those days I was confined to bed with a rare ailment called SIBO ( I still suffer from it , it's with me for life, and will likely take my life some day but symptoms have slightly reduced over 3 years, praise the Lord . The doctors could not help. They couldn’t even diagnose . I had to finally tell them it’s SIBO after all tests were done . They saw nothing in blood X-RAYS colonoscopy and endoscopy
Yet I was suffering to death . All mysterious . Anyway long story short, I couldn’t go to my regular church for months and that's how I came to our website. Lord's grace .

End of Part one-- post continued in next part 2)

--------------------PART 2------------------
Because I was amazed by the amount of Biblical knowledge brothers and sisters had here ( which includes members, moderators and administrators) and how passionately they shared and debated. I learned, I learned, and I absorbed more n more . I realized how dangerous it is to go to Churches where one man teaches and others (churchgoers—like me) just nod our heads whether we agree or not--- not being able to participate. And it becomes lethal if the pastor / teacher is not getting it right, we are all uniting in error! The early church was like our website where believers met and shared and praised the Lord together. I'm sure they debated as well, at times.



I became part of the family here in 2017 and I thank every one from the administrative staff to the owners , and the moderators and everyone who contributed . I also contributed 300+ posts. It all led to mutual edification and also to a shocking revelation, from my point of view.



Before I go into that I would like to present an analogy which will help you understand what I'm trying to say. Trust me it'll make good sense at the end of the post . So please bear with me



One Mr Charlie Jones visits his doctor with an array of symptoms . Mr Jones has been sick for a while. But the doctor goes immediately into treating the symptoms of headache, weakness giddiness etc that Mr Jones has. In his zeal for treating and alleviating Mr Jones's distressing symptoms , the doctor misses out going to the root cause of Mr. Jones's illness . Mr Jones had cancer. But he ended up getting treated for the SYMPTOMS that the cancer was causing , and not the illness ( cancer) itself . The doctor had failed to go to the root of Mr Jones distressing symptoms and therefore didn't succeed in diagnosing his ailment , thereby placing Mr Jones's life in peril. It was only much later that the doctor discovered that all symptoms of Mr. Jones were caused by the underlying and undetected cancer. Once the doctor learned that, he knew he would have to get rid of the cancer for the symptoms to vanish and the healing of Jones to take place. Unless the cancer goes the symptoms will not go…



This analogy demonstrates unless we go to root of the concern/ issue, we are unable to resolve it. Even in 2017, I, JLB , Wondering , Tessa , some other members, vehemently argued about obedience being a central part of Christ's doctrine of Salvation . We were met with a fierce resistance by some brothers and sisters who believed in the Solafide doctrine of saved by Faith alone. There were many back and forth verses between us and them as we debated passionately, but mostly respectfully. At that time it didn't occur to me this long and protracted debate was occurring only due to the writings of one writer in Bible ...the New Testament if you will. The source of Solafide doctrine was Paul. Some other verses of other writers were taken to prove its validity. For example John 3:16 is one of the favorites of the Churches, however the same teachers seldom point at John 3: 36 where John the Baptist scuttles the Solafide doctrine of saved by faith alone, with the following words



John 3:36 (NASB)►



"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."



What the Baptist says pretty much summarizes the message of Christ. No obedience , no salvation .



This is endorsed by the Lord's earthly brother James in His epistle James 2:20 “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?”

And by Christ Himself in Matthew 7:21, Matthew 10:38 , John 14:15 and several other verses.

Coming back to the time JLB Sister wondering, I and some others were contending for OBEDIENCE , in the heat of the arguments with other brothers one fine day , it suddenly dawned on me it was Paul's doctrine/ teaching which was the root cause of all the confusion about whether Obedience plays a vital role in human salvation or not. In the Soulful orchestra of Bible every writer was singing / playing in harmony except ONE . Paul. He was the only one in the entire Bible who was saying fervently it was Faith alone which can save a man. Nobody else did , not even Christ. ( check parable of the Rich man and Jesus , or the Teacher of the Law and Christ ( which immediately precedes the Good Samaritan parable)

(Message continued -- end of Part 1--- Look for the next part please/\)

The entire cause of human race to have fallen, cursed by God and the planet itself condemned is SIN. And sin comes in the ABSENCE of obedience. In one line when we do not obey, we sin. And we know God has no tolerance at all for sin ( reading Jeremiah—its shocking The Lord God’s hatred for sin). If His only begotten son , our Lord Jesus Christ was not spared ( because He became Sin to save us), will God spare us , if we choose to live in sin and disobedience? Hebrews 6:4-6 says there is no hope for a chronic / habitual sinner even if he/ she is a professing Christian.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

PART #3
So when even Christ was not talking about being saved by faith alone, WHY was paul teaching this doctrine. This piqued my curiosity to learn more about this man – Paul aka Saul the Pharisee who came into the church as the thirteenth apostle under dramatic circumstances. If you guys will see from almost November 2017 until May or June of 2020 , I have almost contributed nothing on our website while in 2017 itself I have written more than 300 posts. The reason being I spent years researching this mystery Apostle Paul. Who was he , where did he come from. How did the conversion happen. Who were the witnesses at the time of his claimed conversion. And finally, was his taevchings aligned with those of the Christ?
Long story short I found lots of things about Paul which stunned and astonished me. It made me wonder could this 13th Apostle ever be from Christ. Who was the Jesus of Damascus who appeared to this Pharisee Saul and changed his life , and the salvation doctrine of Christ ? Remember friends Christ taught all three are necessary for Slavation Faith( John 3:16) – Baptism ( John 3:5) – Obedience (John 3:36 -NASB, Matthew 10:38) –in fact all about salvation needed is coincidentally found in one chapter of the entire Bible –in the 3rd Chapter of the Gospel of John. All three-- Faith, Baptism, Obedience-- are needed declares the Messiah—followed by a judgment ( Sheep and Goats Vision Jesus provided Matthew 25:31-46)
We must remember that it was Paul who taught that we are saved by grace which comes through faith alone and not by works, lest no many may boast ( Ephesians 2:8-9) . This is a far cry from what Jesus warns in the Parable of the vine and the branches “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, so that it will be even more fruitful.
God wants to see Good fruit/ Works from us else he will not hesitate to chop us off the Vine of the Lord. And as if this is not scary enough Jesus promises us it gets worse for the fruitless believer ---in verse 6
“If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.”
Yup, if we do not bear good fruit as believers , we will be chopped off the Vine and finally cast into Fire and burned. Much as John the baptist says in John 3:36 or James in 2:20 or the Lord in Matthew 7:21 and in fact Jesus closes his legendary Sermon ( on the mount) with the words Matthew 7:26-27

“But anyone who hears these words of mine and does not obey them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain poured down, the rivers flooded over, the wind blew hard against that house, and it fell. And what a terrible fall that was!"

Good fruit is the consequence of obedience. Obedience is vital to salvation if we rely on the words of the Messiah, John the baptist , James, John, and ALL the old testament, writers , the Prophets of OT and of course the King of them all our Lord almighty God who made the sinning Israelis eat the flesh of their own children --- so great and devastating is the backlash of sin and so fierce is father God’s anger on Sinfulness of His own people --Deuteronomy 28:53
During the siege and hardship that your enemy will impose on you, you will eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters whom the LORD your God has given you.

2 Kings 6:29
So we boiled my son and ate him, and the next day I said to her, 'Give up your son, and we will eat him.' But she has hidden her son."
Jeremiah 19:9
( God says) :I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh in the siege and distress inflicted on them by their enemies who seek their lives.'
Lamentations 4:10
The hands of compassionate women have cooked their own children, who became their food in the destruction of the daughter of my people.

Ezekiel 5:10
“Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I myself am against you, Jerusalem, and I will inflict punishment on you in the sight of the nations. 9 Because of all your detestable idols, I will do to you what I have never done before and will never do again. 10 Therefore in your midst parents will eat their children, and children will eat their parents. I will inflict punishment on you and will scatter all your survivors to the winds. 11 Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your vile images and detestable practices, I myself will shave you; I will not look on you with pity or spare you. 12 A third of your people will die of the plague or perish by famine inside you; a third will fall by the sword outside your walls; and a third I will scatter to the winds and pursue with drawn sword.

13 “Then my anger will cease and my wrath against them will subside, and I will be avenged. And when I have spent my wrath on them, they will know that I the Lord have spoken in my zeal.

14 “I will make you a ruin and a reproach among the nations around you, in the sight of all who pass by. 15 You will be a reproach and a taunt, a warning and an object of horror to the nations around you when I inflict punishment on you in anger and in wrath and with stinging rebuke. I the Lord have spoken. 16 When I shoot at you with my deadly and destructive arrows of famine, I will shoot to destroy you. I will bring more and more famine upon you and cut off your supply of food. 17 I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the Lord have spoken.”
We see Lord God’s fierce anger, even to the point of driving disobedient/ sinful People of His to cannibalism.
And it was Paul who says ( in Romans 10:9) If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved
Then again Paul says in Romans 10:13 “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” So on and so forth.
It got me thinking why was Paul teaching something God or Christ didn’t teach as did none of the NT writers taught and none of the Prophets either ? It dawned on me in my research that Paul DID NOT want believers of Christ to obey by making them secure in their salvation by spouting these verses which contradicted the theme of Bible – of obedience to God --- from genesis to revelation. And Paul was the ONLY NT writer or writer in entire Bible who kept talking about Christian is dead to the Law , when Christ says clearly it is not
You HAVE DIED TO THE LAW
Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the Law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
YOU HAVE BEEN RELEASED FROM THE LAW

Romans 7:6
But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
YOU HAVE BEEN SET FREE FROM LAW

Romans 8:2

For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death.



YOU ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW if you are led by the Spirit

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

YOU ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW BUT GRACE

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.

YOU DIED TO THE LAW THROUGH THE BODY OF CHRIST

Romans 7:4-11

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God…

WE ARE NOT UNDER LAW

Romans 6:15

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

----Part 4----

Question is why was Paul teaching this when Jesus had made it amply clear that point in Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
He repeats that LAW is HERE and will ALWAYS stay that way . Nobody dare suggest anybody ( Christian or otherwise) is dead to the Law – for it was the Law given by the Living God Himself . Nobody dare say its gone or dead—not even the Son had the authority to take away the Law. Even as I speak/ wrote these words its ALIVE and CONVICTING

Jesus in Matthew 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Jesus is echoing what Father God says ( Hebrews 10:16 ) "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

So friends I wondered why Paul repeatedly said Christian is dead ( nobody else uttered these blasphemous words in the Bible) to the Law when it is INSCRIBED ON OUR MINDS AND HEARTS.

But yes its true that our Good Lord made it possible to OBEY the Lord… and its NOT by Faith alone as Paul suggests. Its something else and here it is – I repeat again I learned all these when I STOPPED reading Paul’s words in the Bible and started studying again and again the Red lettered words of Jesus, and they gave me a different Gospel than what paul and most Churches did .I will highly exhort you to deeply examine every word of the Lord Jesus Christ --- and you will see a different picture emerge right in front of your eyes ( as did mine). Cling TO CHRIST! There is safety in his words and there is salvation in HIS teaching

Coming back to point Jesus taught us the following way we could keep the entire Law and the teachings of the prophet ( words of Christ, not mine)

Matthew 22:37-40
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

In case we may have any doubts about this let us see how Jesus REPEATED the same message in different words

Matthew 7:12



In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you.

For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

Do to others – would mean LOVE them if we want to be loved by others.

Well on personal level I want to be loved and not rejected---- for I thrive on love and wither on rejection

So Jesus is repeating the same message LEARN TO LOVE GOD AND OTHER HUMAN BEINGS—and when we do this WE FULFILL THE DEMAND OF THE LAW AND OF THE PROPHETS. That’s what Jesus did ---He fulfilled the demands of the Law and the Prophets by teaching us and exhorting us to love all ( hate and judge none)
If there is yet a bit of doubt friends, consider His words ( caveat really) in
Matthew 5: 43 & 45

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. For, If you love only those who love you, what reward have you?

So Christ was not only exhorting us to love God and neighbor BUT also love the enemy ( and bless them as well), as well as LOVE EACH OTHER ( John 13:34 ) "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another”

Let us summarize then what Jesus taught us and exhorted / commanded us to do --- and trust me friends on the last day it will be terrible for those of us who failed to obey/ keep his commands , as was for the “goats” in the FUTURE VISION ( it’s not a parable) of Goats and Sheep—when Jesus gives us a preview of what is happening at a future time and WILL happen on the judgment day --- on that day my brothers and sisters , Jesus will be sitting on His throne of judgment and He will reject all those who failed to obey Him and practice Loving Compassion .
Yes indeed on that day unfortunately many brethren will not find a place in His heaven. I call these believers “Paulians” who merely believed but did NOT OBEY – failed to practice Loving compassion ( as God-less and Christ-less, good Samaritan did, and yet he captured the heart of Christ) .

The Sheep in the message were those who not only believed but IMPLEMENTED Christs call for Loving compassion. Friends I would exhort you to read this story repeatedly – For one day we will be standing ALONE in front of the JUDGE ( jesus) and he WILL bring to consideration everything we did and we did NOT do—remember the brethren rejected on that day had committed NOT sins of commission but sins of OMISSION ( failing to implement ) How bad then it will be for those who lived out a life serving the world and flesh and not the Lord… yes guys its going to be a sad n scary day for many …. For every deed of ours will be placed under the scanner by the Lord Himself

Matthew 16:27 “For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.”

I see a connection between Allegory of Sheep and the Goats and the parable of the Good Samaritan . Jesus wants us to be good Samaritans not just believers who merely believed but did NOT practice loving compassion, as the good Samaritan, who was not a believer but it was his acts of loving kindness that captured the heart of the Lord. Let us then be doers of the word , not just hearers as James chides in James 1:22 “Be doers of the word, and not hearers only”

Didn’t the Lord warn the Church in Matthew 16:6 “Watch out and beware of the yeast ( the doctrine) of the Pharisees and Sadducees." And yet many of us ended up doing exactly what He had warned us NOT to do. I had also provided the Church with the deadly consequence of that fatal mistake--- of believing the Yeast of the Pharisee ( Pahrisee Saul in this case) through the future event on day of judgment day when The Sheep and the Goats will be separated , and the Goats – the Christians who merely believed but did not obey ---will be banished from His presence

In short the Lord warned us in Matthew 16:6 to beware of the “Yeast” of the Pharisee, and if we did not heed, the consequence is here for us --- the vision of Sheep and the Goats --Matthew 25:31-46
If we didn’t pay heed and elected to believe the Solafide Doctrine( the yeast!) of the Saul the Pharisee ( saved by faith alone) and did not keep the commands -----the end result is recorded for us in the Vision of Sheep and Goats on the judgment day.

I’m sure the “ believers only” –the Paulians ( the Goats) must have been stunned why they were rejected since they had the faith needed for salvation, per teaching of Paul, but yet it was not good enough for The Lord for them to be saved.

The Solafide doctrine expounded by Paul had NOT worked for them, for their works did NOT reflect their Christian Faith (James 2:2) and hence was rejected ( John 3:36 NASB)

My question is when Jesus had condensed the entire implementation of obedience in one single word --- LOVE ---- what excuse do we have when we stand in front of Him on the last day, stark and alone—if we could not even learn to LOVE?

Friends im NOT here to denigrate Paul , but to get your attention to the salvation doctrine of Christ , the author of our salvation, one who died for us on the Cross.

Because pauline doctrine took over the NT doctrine of Christ and it is paul’s doctrine rather than Christ’s which has become the milestone for Christian salvation --- solafide doctrine , something which neither Jesus nor Father God or any other writer of NT or any Prophet taught. Only one man taught this who was singing off key and out of tune in the Orchestra of God—His word, His Bible— was apostle Paul. Unless we determine the genuineness of his apostleship, there will be ENDLESS discussions among us brothers and sisters.
If I quote a verse for Christ , somebody will quote Paul and the debate becomes endless.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Part 5

BUT if Paul’s apostleship itself is unproven/ rejected, who will then quote Paul? Will we not rush to study what the messiah taught? What were HIS rules for salvation?
Personally I learned everything from the words of Christ—always consistent always in sync with the theme of OT – the entire flow.
In my study of Christs words, and investigation of paul I realized that paul who had not walked a day with the Lord ended up writing thirteen books of the Bibe. The THIRTEENTH apostle ended up writing THIRTEEN books of the NT.
In my research on paul I found WHY this thirteenth apostle could never have been from Christ – that reminds me have you thought how were there thirteen apostles in operation after Christ ascended – eleven handpicked apostles of Christ who in HIS Spirit’s presence appointed Matthias to replace the betraying Judas. Peter and the other 10 apostles did exactly as they had been commanded to in appointing Matthias – If Jesus was going to appoint a thirteenth one, shouldn’t He have stalled that appointment by telling peter and the rest “ look guys I am appointing the 12th apostle myself , so don’t appoint anyone now” But Jesus didn’t. He expected us to ponder and ask How can there be THIRTEEN APOSTLES when there are twelve TRIBES of Israel. Revelations 21:14 tells us that – “The wall of the city had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
TWELVE apostles of the Lamb … one is conspicuous by its absence – one apostle did not find favor and approval of God the Father and Christ Jesus ,the Son.
Please do not reject Matthias just to accommodate paul – Matthias was chosen by the handpicked eleven apostle of Christ in the presence of Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit ( Acts 1:12-26) I added Holy Spirit because this is what Christ says in Matthew 18:20 “For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
So Jesus was present when Matthias was chosen the twelfth apostle to replace the betraying, and now dead, apostle Judas.
Even the robust defender of Christian faith Gotquestions.org could not defend Paul as the twelfth apostle—they accept it was Matthias…
https://www.gotquestions.org/Matthias-Judas-Paul.html

While the Apostles of Christ chose Matthias in the presence of Christ himself, as the twelfth apostle to replace Judas, Paul chose himself and the two or three credible witnesses to his conversion story were a bunch of lynch mob murderers ( at time of his alleged “conversion”) . Nobody else witnessed that conversion / event

Anyway I place these findings of my research on paul on the table here—my sole and soul intention being for all reading this post to please, please read and study and soak up the teachings of the Lord and obey his commands – and don’t crave salvation because Jesus repeatedly warned that all those who love their lives will lose it. Think WHO wants to be saved? All those who loved their lives! Does a man who hates his (miserable) life (like me) want to be saved? No way, Jose! I don’t crave salvation. I just don’t want anything but to – do – the – will – of – the – Lord.
I want salvation ONLY if its His will. And if His will is rejection or annihilation of my very sould Ley His Will be done. Even that! Yup guys I want His will to be done at all costs even if it goes severely against me, and im condemned or extinguished. I’m obsessed with that message/ warning/ command of the Lord “DO THE WILL OF GOD!”

The Bible tells us that the entire cause of human grief (n death) the curses of God upon mankind and the condemnation and destruction of this planet itself and unfortunate condemnation of billions of souls lays captured in one line “ We chose to do our will versus the will of God” starting with Adam and all the way to us with exception of few who chose to do God’s will versus their own ( like king Josiah, Hezekiah) apart from Lord Jesus who ALWAYS chose to do God’s will versus His own. While writing these lines the Spirit of the Lord tells me Paul was lying– to drive home his dirty doctrine of saved by faith alone --- when he wrote “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23)

Following is a brief account of Josiah

2 Kings 22 (1-2)
“Josiah was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem thirty-one years. His mother’s name was Jedidah daughter of Adaiah; she was from Bozkath. And Josiah did what was right in the eyes of the LORD and walked in all the ways of David his forefather; he did not turn aside to the right or to the left.
Following is what Father God says about Josiah . Let us compare Paul’s words in Romans 3:23 to Words of Father God Himself in Jeremiah 22:15-16
God: “But a beautiful cedar palace does not make a great king! Your father, Josiah, also had plenty to eat and drink. But he was just and right in all his dealings. That is why God blessed him. He gave justice and help to the poor and needy, and everything went well for him. Isn’t that what it means to know me?” says the LORD.”
Jesus also says the same thing in different words---- Jesus always was consistent with Father God’s teachings

Luke 5:31-32 “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Then again in Matthew 13:17 , Jesus says:

“For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Part 6
(good Samaritan was one of those who didn’t have a relationship with the Lord, but his acts of loving Compassion captured the heart of our savior)



We all need Savior, our Lord Jesus, but it was most unfair of Paul to bracket the Hitlers, the Stalins, the Mao’s, the Bin Ladens, with the likes of King Josiah, hezekia, the Good Samaritan(s) in one bracket, to sell his doctrine of salvation.

Let’s read and heed the warning/ caveats of Christ about those who come to Him to seek salvation :

John 12: 5



Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.



Matthew 10:39



Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.



Matthew 16:25



For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.



Mark 8:35



For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and for the gospel will save it.



Luke 9:24



For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it.







Luke 14:26



"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be My disciple.



Luke 17:33



Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it.



This is Something Paul never/ sledom taught – Instead he kept harping on “just believe and it’s a done deal—you’re saved ” Ephesians 2:8, Romans 6:23 etc. .



It's an irony—paul was teaching OPPOSITE of what Christ taught—Christ did not want believers making a beeline to him to get “saved” rather he was wanting those who were willing to do the will of God versus their own will ( Matthew 7:21) even at the expense of LOSING their lives-- wonder why didn’t Paul teach that repeatedly – for that is the message of the Bible DO GOD’S WILL AGAINST OUR OWN ( WRETCHED) WILL much as the Messiah always did --- he always did God’s will even to the point of death ( Matthew 6:10, Matthew 22:39) Same in ( Hebrews 10:9) “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.”



So here before I conclude I would like to share my findings of paul the thirteenth apostle of Christ



Summarizing the mystery of Pauline apostleship:

• Jesus curses the Pharisees and Sadducees with seven woes, Matthew 23:13-39 , as Jesus had never cursed anyone
• He then WARNS His disciples with the caveat “BEWARE OF THE YEAST (DOCTRINE) OF THE PHARISEES! (Matthew 16:6)
• Jesus then proceeds to appoint Saul, the vicious Church persecuting Pharisee, as His apostle, as per Paul’s story (Acts 9:1-19)
• Paul provides three different, and inconsistent accounts about his conversion experience
• There is not a single credible witness who witnessed Paul’s conversion
• Pharisee Saul aka Paul leaves for ARABIA instead of Jerusalem for 3 long years after conversion, without meeting or sharing his experience with any of Christ’s apostles. What was he doing in Arabia alone? What was “Christ” teaching him there, secluded from all?
• The apostles are NOT informed by Christ that He wants to appoint a thirteenth apostle
• Neither does Christ prevent the eleven handpicked apostle in choosing a twelfth apostle, Matthias, to replace the betraying apostle Judas Acts 1:12-26
• Christ commends the Church of Ephesus for exposing false apostles (Revelations 2:2) which had previously rejected apostle Paul , at least on one occasion
• Christ goes on to honor twelve of the now thirteen apostles in Revelation 21: 14 where only twelve apostles’ names are mentioned. Only one of the two --- Matthias(hand-picked by the apostles of Christ) or Paul ----will find a place / name in the new Jerusalem
• Finally against the warning of Christ in Matthew 23:9 ► “Do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven” Paul goes on to say in 1 Corinthians 4:15 ► Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel
• By saying All scripture is God breathed ( 2Timothy 3:16) Paul committed a double blasphemy ----not only did he place his words at par with the words of Almighty God in the Bible and His one begotten son Christ Jesus, but he also included the words of the devil recorded for us in the scripture ( Christ testing in wilderness, God and devil dialogue in Job, and the serpent’s word at Genesis 3—the Fall of mankind—the first sin of man – words which tempted Man to rebel/ sin against God
• Paul says ( a favorite of several churches ) in Romans 6:23
• “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.”
• If that is the case – that Salvation is a free gift, how is it that Jesus RUBBISHES that claim in in Luke 14:25-34 (The COST of Being a Disciple)
• 25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
• 28 “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? 29 For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, 30 saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’ 31 “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33 In the same way, those of you who DO NOT GIVE UP EVERYTHING YOU HAVE cannot be my disciples.
• Far from being a free gift, even to become disciple of Christ requires us to give up ALL – including our LIVES if needed (Luke 14:26). Most definitely NOT a free Gift by aby stretch of imagination, as paul taught/ touted.
• Christ gave up his all for us and now wants OUR ALL in case we wish to become His disciple. The Churches will NOT teach that—else WHO will tithe? Not all of them are PRACTICING believers like Stove Bolt who declined to take tithes because he thought he didn’t need anymore. THIS ( Stove’s) is an act of willful obedience.
• In most Churches I have been, trays and baskets came BEFORE and AFTER the service to collect Tithes.
• We HAVE to make conscious choices of obedience friends. It’s up to us whether we choose to obey and implement or not. No free gifts or lunches there. It was ALWAYS a Covenantal relationship between God and Man --- from genesis to revelation ---and a covenant ALWAYS involves bilateral responsibilities and obligations/commitments ( not just faith alone—but acts as well
• Conclusion of the matter
• Dear friends I apologize for writing all this. BUT if I do not I’m NOT able to express WHY its absolutely vital to OBEY and study the red lettered words of the Christ--- even if you choose to read and believe the words of the thirteenth apostle --- Paul
• Because when I stopped reading paul and focused squarely on WHAT was the savior of Mankind saying , a radically different picture emerged. Paul’s Solafide doctrine contradicts Christ’s doctrine Of Faith, baptism, and Lifelong obedience , followed by judgement, where every work of ours will be scrutinized by the Lord. I wish to say with a heavy heart had Paul’s doctrine not been there, millions today would have likely OBEYED, and obeyed enthusiastically, wholeheartedly , because there would be no obscurement and the Pristine Salvation of Christ would have shone unhindered, unobscured ----brilliantly and unabatedly, and there would be a greater Fear of God. I believe the Christ said the following words for this very reason “For many are invited but few are chosen”
• Cherry-picking of verses took place and a fake doctrine of salvation was crafted—mostly using the verses of Paul – especially what is now come to be known as the ROMAN ROAD.
• Hopefully since I have written enough, I will just put the remaining in points/ bullets forms. I also know that I’m singing to a choir – you guys are so well read and knowledgeable But anyway, as Iron sharpens iron…
• 
  
• Accept Christ as savior( john 3 :16) and Lord and DO as he says

(Luke 6:46)—not just believe. Nothing without obedience

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Part 7 -- the Final part-- whew! it took a lot to be able to post the whole thing! -- raj

• Make sure we get baptized – no salvation without being born of the water and spirit says the Lord in (John 3:5 )—and note the Lord says “Truly, truly” ( twice) and which therefore merits extra attention / caution from us ( while Paul says 1 Corinthians 1:17 ► “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel…” ---Christ teaching a different doctrine through you eh, Mr. Paul?)
• Do the WILL OF GOD versus our own will – this is PARAMOUNT and of extreme importance to do the will of god versus our wretched will ( cause of all human grief and pain)… and it takes a lifetime of obedient walk to fight our will and do God’s will and therefore Jesus said in Matthew 10:38 “Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”
• Remember friends, Whoever does not do the will of God is NOT in sync with Him and will ultimately be destroyed ( Matthew 7:21, Mark 3:33-35)
• This begs the question WHAT IS THE WILL OF GOD?

After much sifting this is ( just) my take on what God’s will is:

The will of God Is for us to Fear God ( Ecclesiastes 12:13), Turn AWAY from all sinfulness and turn TO truth (Jesus) and righteousness (doing the right thing right away) , practicing LOVING COMPASSION as we go through the journey of life –Loving God and loving all humans ---Judging and hating none,
and it is when we practice Loving-Compassion that we Obey the Entire law and the teachings of the Prophets and of Christ Jesus Himself.
So friends, in my humble opinion, it all starts (God’s creation) and concludes in one word ------- LOVE.
It had to be that way, for God is love – He ( and the Son who are one) couldn’t have taught anything else – pure and unconditional love ---- not for just our near and dear ones but for ALL – no exceptions.
If I am asked by a person to summarize the entire message of bible, it would be one word….. LOVE

Before signing off I would like to draw your attention to what the resurrected (and consistent!) Christ taught / commanded in Matthew 28:18-20
“All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
( if we ourselves are not obeying, should we teach others to do it? Wont that be hypocritical? And therefore I feel we must start our walk of obedience asap – in case we are not obeying -- before we teach others to do what Jesus is asking of us in the great commission)

So friends thank you very much for the patience to read this long letter of LOVE
I submit all this in Love and utmost respect. Since I believe the end times are here and the judgment of the Lord has begun ( Corona virus means Crown Virus--- corona is crown in Spanish)



I’m willing to beg you brethren, to OBEY (apart from believing) because I’m not hear to fight Paul BUT to share what Jesus taught. He taught no different than what the prophets and Father God taught. And the much-hyped saving GRACE is imputed only to those who are willing to RACE--- obey. Race against sin and fight our own will and do God’s will. Else the grace does not apply ( Christ’s words – Matthew 7:21, Matthew 10:38)

I would like to quote something – something I learned from one of our members here, sister WONDERING – and which aptly describes how much obedience is required by us (followers) to be saved?
“Do our BEST and leave to Christ the rest”
Yes its impossible to obey the entire law and every commandment-- even of Christ and therefore the good Lord Jesus made it doable/ possible by teaching us to Love God, love neighbor, love each other, and love even the enemy . If we cannot even learn to love, what excuse do we have (of not being able to obey?) on the last day?
On the other hand if we are ABLE to overcome our ego and LOVE unconditionally, and Forgive all and exist and operate from the premise and place of love ( rather than hate and judgment) -- turning willfully away from sin ( at least fight it hard!) we are doing the will of God and the GRACE emanating from the Cross of Christ is imputed to us and will likely find a place in his sanctuary—though I do not wish to hazard a guess or give guarantees who will be saved and who will not. That’s all upto the Lord and father God on the last day. All I can say is that IF we do the Will of God, repeatedly until it becomes a second nature, a habit if we you will, we have an excellent chance (Matthew 7:21)

I close this with the following words of sadhu Sundar Singh , an eminent evangelist of India in 1900s, these words resonate with my heart and soul:

“Should I worship Christ from fear of hell, may I be cast into it. Should I serve Him from desire of gaining heaven, may He keep me out.
But should I worship Him from love alone, He reveals Himself to me,
that my whole heart may be filled with His love and presence.”

--------------------Sadhu Sundar Singh



God bless everyone /\ /\ /\

In humility, love, and respect I submit,

--- Raj Sahu, a servant of our Lord Jesus Christ



John 4:8 ►
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 John 3:10

By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1 John 4:7

Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

1 John 4:16

And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love; whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

 

[GodsGrace]

--------------------PART 2------------------
Because I was amazed by the amount of Biblical knowledge brothers and sisters had here ( which includes members, moderators and administrators) and how passionately they shared and debated. I learned, I learned, and I absorbed more n more . I realized how dangerous it is to go to Churches where one man teaches and others (churchgoers—like me) just nod our heads whether we agree or not--- not being able to participate. And it becomes lethal if the pastor / teacher is not getting it right, we are all uniting in error! The early church was like our website where believers met and shared and praised the Lord together. I'm sure they debated as well, at times.



I became part of the family here in 2017 and I thank every one from the administrative staff to the owners , and the moderators and everyone who contributed . I also contributed 300+ posts. It all led to mutual edification and also to a shocking revelation, from my point of view.



Before I go into that I would like to present an analogy which will help you understand what I'm trying to say. Trust me it'll make good sense at the end of the post . So please bear with me



One Mr Charlie Jones visits his doctor with an array of symptoms . Mr Jones has been sick for a while. But the doctor goes immediately into treating the symptoms of headache, weakness giddiness etc that Mr Jones has. In his zeal for treating and alleviating Mr Jones's distressing symptoms , the doctor misses out going to the root cause of Mr. Jones's illness . Mr Jones had cancer. But he ended up getting treated for the SYMPTOMS that the cancer was causing , and not the illness ( cancer) itself . The doctor had failed to go to the root of Mr Jones distressing symptoms and therefore didn't succeed in diagnosing his ailment , thereby placing Mr Jones's life in peril. It was only much later that the doctor discovered that all symptoms of Mr. Jones were caused by the underlying and undetected cancer. Once the doctor learned that, he knew he would have to get rid of the cancer for the symptoms to vanish and the healing of Jones to take place. Unless the cancer goes the symptoms will not go…



This analogy demonstrates unless we go to root of the concern/ issue, we are unable to resolve it. Even in 2017, I, JLB , Wondering , Tessa , some other members, vehemently argued about obedience being a central part of Christ's doctrine of Salvation . We were met with a fierce resistance by some brothers and sisters who believed in the Solafide doctrine of saved by Faith alone. There were many back and forth verses between us and them as we debated passionately, but mostly respectfully. At that time it didn't occur to me this long and protracted debate was occurring only due to the writings of one writer in Bible ...the New Testament if you will. The source of Solafide doctrine was Paul. Some other verses of other writers were taken to prove its validity. For example John 3:16 is one of the favorites of the Churches, however the same teachers seldom point at John 3: 36 where John the Baptist scuttles the Solafide doctrine of saved by faith alone, with the following words



John 3:36 (NASB)►



"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."



What the Baptist says pretty much summarizes the message of Christ. No obedience , no salvation .



This is endorsed by the Lord's earthly brother James in His epistle James 2:20 “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?”

And by Christ Himself in Matthew 7:21, Matthew 10:38 , John 14:15 and several other verses.

Coming back to the time JLB Sister wondering, I and some others were contending for OBEDIENCE , in the heat of the arguments with other brothers one fine day , it suddenly dawned on me it was Paul's doctrine/ teaching which was the root cause of all the confusion about whether Obedience plays a vital role in human salvation or not. In the Soulful orchestra of Bible every writer was singing / playing in harmony except ONE . Paul. He was the only one in the entire Bible who was saying fervently it was Faith alone which can save a man. Nobody else did , not even Christ. ( check parable of the Rich man and Jesus , or the Teacher of the Law and Christ ( which immediately precedes the Good Samaritan parable)

(Message continued -- end of Part 1--- Look for the next part please/\)

The entire cause of human race to have fallen, cursed by God and the planet itself condemned is SIN. And sin comes in the ABSENCE of obedience. In one line when we do not obey, we sin. And we know God has no tolerance at all for sin ( reading Jeremiah—its shocking The Lord God’s hatred for sin). If His only begotten son , our Lord Jesus Christ was not spared ( because He became Sin to save us), will God spare us , if we choose to live in sin and disobedience? Hebrews 6:4-6 says there is no hope for a chronic / habitual sinner even if he/ she is a professing Christian.

Hi Rajesh...it's so nice to have you back.

You posted a lot and I doubt all will be answered,,,but here goes.

As to the above, I'd like to make this comment....I think that Paul was very much misunderstood.
Or, I should say, IS very much misunderstood.

The reason I say this is because the bible was put together by what we know today as the Early Church Fathers in about the 5th century (a little earlier).

These Fathers of the early church believed in OBEDIENCE. The did NOT deny it.
So why would they have included Paul in the N.T. if they felt he was not agreeing with the other writers? Paul would have been a heretic to them. They opposed gnosticism vehemently and some gnostics even taught that one could sin all he wants to and still be saved.

Sound familiar?

We have Christians today stating that we obey BECAUSE of our salvation. This is true!
But then they go on to state that the one and true gospel requires ONLY faith and obedience is a WORK. Work has become a dirty word when, in reality, this is all Jesus spoke of! He NEVER said to JUST BELIEVE and we would be saved. John 5:28-29 comes to mind and there are so many verses regarding this.

If we read carefully, we find that Paul is trying to explain that we are no longer under THE LAW OF MOSES...and in fact we cannot be. Jesus was the last sacrifice for us and there are no longer sacrifices even in Israel. The temple is gone so there is no worship in the temple, but we worship from every hilltop. God is not in a place but He is in our heart. We worship in Spirit.

We could speak more on Paul, and I must say, there is a member here --- Blood Bought 1953 -- who goes so far as to call it Paul's Gospel instead of THE gospel.

Just want to say that Paul did agree with the others.
He stated many times that we are to live wholesome lives becoming of a Christian. He did this in every letter of his that I could think of....Romans, Corinthians, Galaatians.

What I think is happening is this hyper grace movement and sola fide movement which is very enticing and removes all responsibility.

I hope JLB sees this too.

More later....

 

[JLB]

Hi Rajesh...it's so nice to have you back.

You posted a lot and I doubt all will be answered,,,but here goes.

As to the above, I'd like to make this comment....I think that Paul was very much misunderstood.
Or, I should say, IS very much misunderstood.

The reason I say this is because the bible was put together by what we know today as the Early Church Fathers in about the 5th century (a little earlier).

These Fathers of the early church believed in OBEDIENCE. The did NOT deny it.
So why would they have included Paul in the N.T. if they felt he was not agreeing with the other writers? Paul would have been a heretic to them. They opposed gnosticism vehemently and some gnostics even taught that one could sin all he wants to and still be saved.

Sound familiar?

We have Christians today stating that we obey BECAUSE of our salvation. This is true!
But then they go on to state that the one and true gospel requires ONLY faith and obedience is a WORK. Work has become a dirty word when, in reality, this is all Jesus spoke of! He NEVER said to JUST BELIEVE and we would be saved. John 5:28-29 comes to mind and there are so many verses regarding this.

If we read carefully, we find that Paul is trying to explain that we are no longer under THE LAW OF MOSES...and in fact we cannot be. Jesus was the last sacrifice for us and there are no longer sacrifices even in Israel. The temple is gone so there is no worship in the temple, but we worship from every hilltop. God is not in a place but He is in our heart. We worship in Spirit.

We could speak more on Paul, and I must say, there is a member here --- Blood Bought 1953 -- who goes so far as to call it Paul's Gospel instead of THE gospel.

Just want to say that Paul did agree with the others.
He stated many times that we are to live wholesome lives becoming of a Christian. He did this in every letter of his that I could think of....Romans, Corinthians, Galaatians.

What I think is happening is this hyper grace movement and sola fide movement which is very enticing and removes all responsibility.

I hope JLB sees this too.

More later....

The scriptures teach us that obedience is the way of love.

If we love God them we obey His commandments to love our neighbor.


If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20


I think many people try to make it complicated.


For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Galatians 5:14



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

The scriptures teach us that obedience is the way of love.

If we love God them we obey His commandments to love our neighbor.


If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20


I think many people try to make it complicated.


For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Galatians 5:14



JLB

What does loving a brother entail?

Do you believe Paul's gospel is different from the gospel of Jesus (as Rajesh has pointed out)?.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Accept Christ as savior( john 3 :16) and Lord and DO as he says

AMEN BROTHER!
And WHAT does Jesus tell us to do ?
Jesus said that Paul was His “ Chosen Vessel” to reveal “The Mysteries Of God” —— Secrets That God kept hidden from EVERYBODY until He chose Paul to reveal them to the World . NOBODY knew these Secrets—- not the Disciples .....Not Satan .....NOBODY ! These Secrets that not even Jesus talked about in His Earthly Law-Based Ministry included The Church, The Rapture, The Age of Grace, The Total Forgiveness Of Sins by Simply Believing a Gospel Of Grace That was brought about by the Death, Burial and Resurrection Of Jesus Christ, the Revelation That the Esteemed Law That The Jews thought could “ make them Righteous” and “ Fit For Heaven” was in Fact “ weak and useless” because it lacked the “ Power to Save”—— all it could really do was Point out the Fact That Nobody could keep it and all it could do in the end was Condemn us poor, lost Sinners and almost unbelievably, actually cause Sin to INCREASE !
All of Scripture is “ God-Breathed”..... All of it is suitable for Instruction, correction, etc . This includes the Writings Of Paul, the wicked killer of woman and children, the aptly self-described “ Chief Of Sinners” That Even Peter , in the end, had to admit that even though he found many of the Writings Of Paul “ hard to understand”.....they were to be considered Scripture....
Paul was nothing but a Rotten Sinner until God got hold of him and straightened him out ( sound familiar, my sinful friends? ) Like us , he had nothing to boast about....
Paul teaches things that are the Flat-Out Opposite Of What Jesus taught. ( check out their opposite teachings in regard to things such as Tithing that was Commanded vs Free Will “ cheerful” Giving or the Forgiveness Of one’s Sins not being contingent on whether or not “ we” Forgive others ) How is this possible, one could reasonably ask? The Answer is quite simple . The Cross! It changed “ everything”. God never changes, but His Manner Of dealing with the World He So Loves does , and we should all get down on our knees and thank Him for that! God “ found fault” with the Old Covenant and thanks to what Jesus accomplished at Calvary , God was able to implement a “ NEW and BETTER” deal for Mankind—— a Deal no longer based on a System Of Laws That Even Paul had to admit was so far out of reach for sinful men that, “ Neither he nor his Fathers could keep them!
The Post-Cross , Ascended Jesus used Paul as His Mouth - Piece . There is evidence to suggest that Jesus took Paul out into the Sinai desert and actually spent 3 years with him one-on-one and spent much of that time Instilling in him the “ Good News” That is now God's Way to Save ANY person that will simply TRUST in it — and VERY Important— Trust In It ONLY! This New Way Of Salvation, revealed to Paul, is totally Opposite Of the Old Covenant ! It is NOT based on what “we” do for God ( the basis of Judaism and all other religions). Quite the Contrary, and as I suggested before ......THANK GOD for this New “ Deal”.....The Gospel is NOT what “ we” do for God —- The Gospel is what God has done for “ Us !”
God has Promised to Save us Forever if we Believe the Gospel That proclaims , “ Jesus died for our Sins and He Rose from the Grave.....” You will find this Promise that can Save you in 1Cor15:1-4.......It is a Gospel Of Pure Grace—- it’s all HIM and NOT You......not ONE OUNCE of You! Adding any type of Human Merit or Religion to Grace will CANCEL it ! Contrary to popular belief, one does not “ Fall From Grace” a la Jimmy Swaggert by getting caught in Sin .....one becomes “ Fallen From Grace” when they think they must add to the Gospel Of Grace with things like “ trying to keep the Ten Commandments ..... going to Church..... tithing.....doing the best that they can.....making certain that you Repent Of all sins before you die, etc...
Please let there be NO Misunderstanding at this point! ALL of the previous things are GREAT
things to do ! Obedience to God is ALWAY a GREAT thing to aim for! God will BLESS you for being Obedient! He will NOT save you for it! Your “ obedience” , should you decide to go down THAT Route for your Salvation has a Standard That you will never Meet. The Standard to become “ Fit For Heaven” is PERFECTION ! 24/7 .....the Bible talks about the “ Curse Of The Law! ....You just read it...... if you want to go to Heaven because you think you can keep the Laws ( there are 613 of them—- not just Ten ), just keep in mind , according to the Bible , if you break just ONE you have Broken them ALL ! PLUS if you neglect to do something that you knew that you SHOULD do.....that is a Sin also! ( need I ask how many poor, hungry Strangers you invited into your home today to feed and clothe? )
Do you get it yet? God has All Of us “ trapped like rats”, to put it crudely .Its Another way to say that God is trying to “ bring us to the END of OURSELVES” for Salvation......God literally gave His Law to you and I so we would “ SHUT UP” about it ! Nobody But Jesus could ever Keep it !
The famous Comedian , W.C.Fields, “ famous” for being a Drunk and a hater of Children in addition to being a brilliant Comedian and Movie Star was once caught doing something very uncharacteristic for him......he was caught reading a Bible! Not like Him at all ! When asked what he was doing with a Bible , Fields responded thusly—- “ Looking For Loop- Holes! “
Once again , I State it crudely , But God has provided us with a “ loop-hole “.......a “ Way Out” Of trying to make ourselves “ Worthy” Of Heaven, by trying to be “ Good Enough”. God will “ MAKE us Worthy and declare us “ Fit For Heaven! There is only ONE Catch. We MUST do it God’s Way.We Must Put ALL of our Faith in the Two things that Save us—- Christ’s Blood and our Faith .The Song had it Right all along. It really IS “Nothing But The Blood”——-That is the Crux Of The Gospel......Given to us by Paul, and given to Paul , “ not by man” , but by Jesus Himself.....
Ya ever wonder what God is going to ask you about come Judgement Day? According to Paul, God is going to ask you.... “What did you do with Paul’s Gospel?” You can find that in Romans 2:16.....
One is free to dismiss Paul if they choose to ......in light of all that has been mentioned about this “ Chosen Vessel” Of God in this post—- do you really Believe That it is a Wise thing to do?
Let me make one thing Crystal - Clear Before I End this post....... Jesus did EVERYTHING to obtain our Salvation ......HE made the Sacrifice .....He was the One that Shed His Blood.....NOT PAUL ! Paul was nothing but a Wretched Sinner That caught a BIG Break by the Grace Of God....Jesus did the WORK ..... Paul got to explain what it meant to us Lost Sinners.....REST in the Gospel Of Grace.....Don’t try to “ clean up the house” and invite God in—— Trust in the Gospel ....get God's Holy Spirit Inside Of you by doing that alone and let HIM do the “Cleaning”..... It’s all about that “Inside Of The Cup” Thing That Jesus talked about...... God bless.....

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Accept Christ as savior( john 3 :16) and Lord and DO as he says


Salutations brother and blessings of our Lord Jesus Christ on all.
As I read through your post, I realized you have stated very well what Paul was teaching. And I commend you for your study of Bible /\
That being said, your Quote itself has the answer in it :
You wrote: "All of Scripture is “ God-Breathed”..... All of it is suitable for Instruction, correction, etc . This includes the Writings Of Paul, the wicked killer of woman and children, the aptly self-described “ Chief Of Sinners” That Even Peter , in the end, had to admit that even though he found many of the Writings Of Paul “ hard to understand”.....they were to be considered Scripture.... “

While saying that all scripture is God-breathed in 2Timothy 3:16 Paul may have forgotten there are verses of the evil one also in the Bible. If ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD BREATHED, as Paul claims , then paul has included scripture mouthed by the devil as God-breathed as well.

Lets us see the following accounts recorded for us in the Word:

Matthew 4:1-11
Christ tempted by the devil in the wilderness
Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.”
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 (Devil said) “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test."
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

Let us now read the account of An Encounter between God and Satan recorded for us in
Job 1:6-12
An Encounter between God and Satan

6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord

Let us now read the account recorded for us in Genesis 3 ---The fall of man


Genesis 3: 1-3

The Fall
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

My question to you friend is: 2 Timothy 3:16 is a crucial verse that allowed Paul's words to be included as scripture. But if paul's words are included, shouldn't then, by the same reasoning and rules, devil's words quoted above in BLUE must also be considered God-breathed and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, lest us believers be held guilty of "cherry-picking" ( accepting those verses which we like, while rejecting those we don't)?

I also take the opportunity to quote Sherlock Holmes --- Beg pardon for doing it ----But I believe this is PRECISELY what happened and Conan Doyle's word accurately summarizes the gigantic mistake ( many) Churches made--- which also led to the condemnation of many believers as explained / forecast/ predicted by Christ Himself in the Future vision of the Sheep and the Goats story. Their Faith alone in Christ alone doctrine of paul was rejected by Christ on the judgment day and many Christians were condemned for failing to obey/implement what Christ taught
Here goes Sherlock Holmes ( Doyle's) words “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” ― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, (Sherlock Holmes)

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

I think we should have entire Books dedicated to the Evil and Stupidity Of Satan.....it would make for Fascinating reading......We are no match for Satan , but—- “Greater is He that is IN us than he that is in the World...”
Satan’s inclusions in the Word should be welcome, because all of those that have “ Rightly Divided the Word Of God” and have proven themselves to be “ Good Students Of The Word” Know their Bibles.They Know From other sections of the Bible That Satan is “ The Father Of Lies” and they know there is “NO TRUTH in him”...
Keeping in mind the Lying Nature Of Satan we can know what he says and just Believe the opposite Of it ......anybody who has the Indwelling Holy Spirit in Them has no reason to fear this greatest Sap that ever lived....Jesus was always “ on to him”.......with the help of the Holy Spirit , Perhaps we can be too..... “ Resist the Devil and He will flee from you....”

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I think we should have entire Books dedicated to the Evil and Stupidity Of Satan.....it would make for Fascinating reading......We are no match for Satan , but—- “Greater is He that is IN us than he that is in the World...”
Satan’s inclusions in the Word should be welcome, because all of those that have “ Rightly Divided the Word Of God” and have proven themselves to be “ Good Students Of The Word” Know their Bibles.They Know From other sections of the Bible That Satan is “ The Father Of Lies” and they know there is “NO TRUTH in him”...
Keeping in mind the Lying Nature Of Satan we can know what he says and just Believe the opposite Of it ......anybody who has the Indwelling Holy Spirit in Them has no reason to fear this greatest Sap that ever lived....Jesus was always “ on to him”.......with the help of the Holy Spirit , Perhaps we can be too..... “ Resist the Devil and He will flee from you....”
[/QUOT

Thank you for your reply. Unfortunately I didnt get a reply. Question was if we accept a stranger , Saul the Pharisee's verse that " All scripture is God breathed " I asked a simple question ." If ALL scripture is God breathed , as claimed by Paul, then Satan's words in Bible should be included as well ( by same logic )
However if there is a problem in that , here is a bigger problem here below. Satan words not included here .
If ALL scripture was God breathed as Paul said ( no other writer in Bible did ) let us examine this account ....it is the rape of David's daughter Tamar by his son ( his own sister). Is this scripture God breathed as well? ( to me this is blasphemy). Unfortunately I have to ask hard questions, friend, quoting the scripture, so we may understand the "thirteenth" apostle was not being entirely truthful , when he said what he said in 2 Timothy 3 :16
Let us read the account of rape of Tamar, the daughter of David .
The Rape of Tamar
13 Now David’s son Absalom had a beautiful sister named Tamar. And Amnon, her half brother, fell desperately in love with her. 2 Amnon became so obsessed with Tamar that he became ill. She was a virgin, and Amnon thought he could never have her.

3 But Amnon had a very crafty friend—his cousin Jonadab. He was the son of David’s brother Shimea.[a] 4 One day Jonadab said to Amnon, “What’s the trouble? Why should the son of a king look so dejected morning after morning?”

So Amnon told him, “I am in love with Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.”

5 “Well,” Jonadab said, “I’ll tell you what to do. Go back to bed and pretend you are ill. When your father comes to see you, ask him to let Tamar come and prepare some food for you. Tell him you’ll feel better if she prepares it as you watch and feeds you with her own hands.”

6 So Amnon lay down and pretended to be sick. And when the king came to see him, Amnon asked him, “Please let my sister Tamar come and cook my favorite dish[b] as I watch. Then I can eat it from her own hands.” 7 So David agreed and sent Tamar to Amnon’s house to prepare some food for him.

8 When Tamar arrived at Amnon’s house, she went to the place where he was lying down so he could watch her mix some dough. Then she baked his favorite dish for him. 9 But when she set the serving tray before him, he refused to eat. “Everyone get out of here,” Amnon told his servants. So they all left.

10 Then he said to Tamar, “Now bring the food into my bedroom and feed it to me here.” So Tamar took his favorite dish to him. 11 But as she was feeding him, he grabbed her and demanded, “Come to bed with me, my darling sister.”

12 “No, my brother!” she cried. “Don’t be foolish! Don’t do this to me! Such wicked things aren’t done in Israel. 13 Where could I go in my shame? And you would be called one of the greatest fools in Israel. Please, just speak to the king about it, and he will let you marry me.”

14 But Amnon wouldn’t listen to her, and since he was stronger than she was, he raped her. 15 Then suddenly Amnon’s love turned to hate, and he hated her even more than he had loved her. “Get out of here!” he snarled at her.

16 “No, no!” Tamar cried. “Sending me away now is worse than what you’ve already done to me.”

But Amnon wouldn’t listen to her. 17 He shouted for his servant and demanded, “Throw this woman out, and lock the door behind her!”

18 So the servant put her out and locked the door behind her. She was wearing a long, beautiful robe,[c] as was the custom in those days for the king’s virgin daughters. 19 But now Tamar tore her robe and put ashes on her head. And then, with her face in her hands, she went away crying.

20 Her brother Absalom saw her and asked, “Is it true that Amnon has been with you? Well, my sister, keep quiet for now, since he’s your brother. Don’t you worry about it.” So Tamar lived as a desolate woman in her brother Absalom’s house.

My question to you is : Is this God breathed or not ? ( Satan words not in the picture here )

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

I don’t understand you or where you are going with this stuff, and with no disrespect to you, I am not interested .....sorry, maybe somebody else will want to have this discussion .....thanks for understanding this and I hope your questions find answers.....God bless...

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

I don’t understand you or where you are going with this stuff, and with no disrespect to you, I am not interested .....sorry, maybe somebody else will want to have this discussion .....thanks for understanding this and I hope your questions find answers.....God bless...

All I said was not all scripture is God breathed as Paul says in 2Timothy 3 :16

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

BloodBought,
We can't choose only the verses we like.
The above is very nice, and, of course, Jesus was right.
It IS faith that saves us,,,just like it saved the woman.
Faith saved all the persons He cured,,,or they believed due to the healing.

However, Jesus gave many conditions for being saved and remaining saved.
I'm not going to post verses back and forth and play verse ping pong.

I addressed your verse...now you address mine.

Matthew 7:24-27 JESUS said:
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

ACT is an action word.
What did Jesus teach that we must act on?

Matthew 5:3-10

3“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4“Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5“Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

6“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

7“Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

8“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

10“Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.



Matthew 7:23 JESUS said:
"Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness".


Matthew 10:14-15 JESUS said:
14“Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15“Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city ..


Matthew 15:11 JESUS said:
11“It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”



Jesus instructed us to DO all the above.
This will suffice for now.

How would YOU explain all Jesus said TO DO?

The Old Testament that God later declared “ faulty” was chock-full Of things that man was required “ to do” to get the Blessings Of God...... The New Testament is all about what God HAS DONE FOR MAN .......the Cross Changed almost everything in the Relationship between God and Man......The Religion Of Judaism said “ Do” .......Christianity is the opposite of ALL religions ......everyone of them says “ Do”..... Christianity says “ Done”. Understanding that difference is the difference between Heaven and Hell.....Thanks to the Shed Blood Of Jesus at the Cross, God has a “ New and Better” Plan —— Many need to “ get with the plan”....

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Believing and obeying working together to complete the faith requirement of salvation that we receive when we hear the Gospel

The Gospel tells two Facts.....#1 Jesus died for your Sins. #2 Jesus rose from The Grave.
Believe these two facts to the point that you Rest In them Alone as the Basis Of your Salvation, never having a reason to doubt your Eternal Salvation again is being Obedient to the Gospel....
Let’s say that I tell you two facts: I am going to the Carry-Out to get us a fifth of Thunderbird and after that I will ride a red-tailed Rhino home .Two statements of facts . You can Believe me. You can chose NOT to believe me. After I tell you these facts , I could say “ obey me” . Huh? That makes no sense .
The Revelation Of Paul’s Gospel is like that.....Facts to be Believed or Rejected.....you don’t obey Facts....you obey commands, rules, etc...we can “obey” the Command to “ rest in the Gospel”..... it is impossible to obey what Somebody else did.....you can believe it, it’s silly to think you can obey it.....

 

[JLB]

The Gospel tells two Facts.....#1 Jesus died for your Sins. #2 Jesus rose from The Grave.
Believe these two facts to the point that you Rest In them Alone as the Basis Of your Salvation, never having a reason to doubt your Eternal Salvation again is being Obedient to the Gospel....
Let’s say that I tell you two facts: I am going to the Carry-Out to get us a fifth of Thunderbird and after that I will ride a red-tailed Rhino home .Two statements of facts . You can Believe me. You can chose NOT to believe me. After I tell you these facts , I could say “ obey me” . Huh? That makes no sense .
The Revelation Of Paul’s Gospel is like that.....Facts to be Believed or Rejected.....you don’t obey Facts....you obey commands, rules, etc...we can “obey” the Command to “ rest in the Gospel”..... it is impossible to obey what Somebody else did.....you can believe it, it’s silly to think you can obey it.....

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8

• those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

The Old Testament that God later declared “ faulty” was chock-full Of things that man was required “ to do” to get the Blessings Of God...... The New Testament is all about what God HAS DONE FOR MAN .......the Cross Changed almost everything in the Relationship between God and Man......The Religion Of Judaism said “ Do” .......Christianity is the opposite of ALL religions ......everyone of them says “ Do”..... Christianity says “ Done”. Understanding that difference is the difference between Heaven and Hell.....Thanks to the Shed Blood Of Jesus at the Cross, God has a “ New and Better” Plan —— Many need to “ get with the plan”....

You never quote scripture.
You keep telling me to watch some person on youtube.
I have some time today...
could you please post it again?
Thanks.