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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Please read the TOS
http://www.christianforums.net/announcement.php?f=15&a=6
You agreed to the TOS when you signed on, I am sure the Holy Spirit does not want you to go back on your word.
I am asking you to find different words to make your points.
Actually a temple need not be built...
1Ch 21:22 Then David said to Ornan, Grant me the place of this threshingfloor, that I may build an altar therein unto the LORD: thou shalt grant it me for the full price: that the plague may be stayed from the people.
1Ch 21:23 And Ornan said unto David, Take it to thee, and let my lord the king do that which is good in his eyes: lo, I give thee the oxen also for burnt offerings, and the threshing instruments for wood, and the wheat for the meat offering; I give it all.
1Ch 21:24 And king David said to Ornan, Nay; but I will verily buy it for the full price: for I will not take that which is thine for the LORD, nor offer burnt offerings without cost.
1Ch 21:25 So David gave to Ornan for the place six hundred shekels of gold by weight.
1Ch 21:26 And David built there an altar unto the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings, and called upon the LORD; and he answered him from heaven by fire upon the altar of burnt offering.
1Ch 21:27 And the LORD commanded the angel; and he put up his sword again into the sheath thereof.
1Ch 21:28 At that time when David saw that the LORD had answered him in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite, then he sacrificed there.
1Ch 21:29 For the tabernacle of the LORD, which Moses made in the wilderness, and the altar of the burnt offering, were at that season in the high place at Gibeon.
1Ch 21:30 But David could not go before it to enquire of God: for he was afraid because of the sword of the angel of the LORD.
1Ch 22:1 Then David said, This is the house of the LORD God, and this is the altar of the burnt offering for Israel.
He said this about the area that had just been used to thresh grain on, there was no temple, yet God answered and accepted that this was the House of the Eternal.
Ezr 3:6 From the first day of the seventh month began they to offer burnt offerings unto the LORD. But the foundation of the temple of the LORD was not yet laid.
There was no temple yet they offered the service of the Eternal there. There need not be a temple built.
truthrises
Member
I would just like to give my input on this subject...
It seems that many of you on have the opinion that the end of times or day of judgement, what ever you want to call it, is not near.
You may be right, but as far as I understand it, the time is not known, no body knows it except God but we should be acting everyday in such a manner which exhibits the notion the the day could come tomorrow.
By doing this, we eliminate the idea that the day is not coming now so we can go away and wander in sin, and rather it instills the idea that we could die any moment and surely we will be resurrected to meet our lord on the appointed day so we should haste to do good deeds now rather then later when we may not be alive to do so.
It seems that many of you on have the opinion that the end of times or day of judgement, what ever you want to call it, is not near.
You may be right, but as far as I understand it, the time is not known, no body knows it except God but we should be acting everyday in such a manner which exhibits the notion the the day could come tomorrow.
By doing this, we eliminate the idea that the day is not coming now so we can go away and wander in sin, and rather it instills the idea that we could die any moment and surely we will be resurrected to meet our lord on the appointed day so we should haste to do good deeds now rather then later when we may not be alive to do so.
theLords
Member
Christians are not getting into paradise on their good deeds. If a man worked for eternity doing good deeds, it would still not be enough to compare to the goodness and glory of the Sacred Almighty God. We, as Christians, will be entering the gates of heaven on the merit and good deed(s) [Sacrifice of Christ] of the Lord God Jesus Christ alone.
Other than that, very nice post.
jasoncran
Member
No, given historical context of wha the original aod was it must be a temple of that sort.
sorry the tabernacle of david refers to our messiah.
its a bad translation of house of david, that happen the LORD came.
jasoncran
Member
what?
i know what the temple is and who it is, we are the temple when we come to christ.
lol. uh christianity is an extension of the real judiasim.
the names we call god are from their culture. so can it.
If Christ is the temple, then why are you looking for another temple?
Christianity is the Christ. He is the new covenant manifested in the flesh. He is not an extension of the old. Do you put new wine in an old wineskin?
'Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump' 1 Cor. 5:7
I'm not sure what you mean by the 'real' Judaism.
Christ was manifested at the end of the age. He was the sign given to his generation. He was manifested in the flesh and seen by angels. He did mighty works. He was condemned by his own people and put to death. He went into the earth for three days and three nights, and then the Father raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand.
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained from the world. James 1:27
The Spirit of the Lord makes me look at my own generation and see the men of Nineveh condemning it. Is this to fulfill the saying, 'that which is to be, already has been' ? Ecc. 3:15 It could be. Still it makes me think the day of the LORD is at hand.
And I'm not talking about the hippies.
I'm talking about those who rebelled against all authority both in heaven and on earth; who said there is no God and who make people believe man is an animal: a beast.
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Stormcrow
Member
We are not in the "end times" because we are well past them.
The "end times" - as Christ and the apostles saw them - began and were signified by the events surrounding Christ's advent, earthly ministry, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension to the right hand of the Father, and ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple, thus bringing to an end forever the last vestiges of the Old Covenant (Law of Moses.)
And here is how those "end times" played out in the gospels and Revelation...
{3} As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, Mark 13:3 (NASB)
By this verse, we see that John is one of the four disciples sitting on the Mount of Olives for the Olivet Discourse, yet it appears nowhere in his gospel.
While the other gospels dedicate 1 or 2 full chapters to the Olivet Discourse, John wrote a whole book about it (Revelation), and here's just one of the clues for understanding that:
Look at Matthew 24:9
{9} "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. Matthew 24:9 (NASB)
This is the same tribulation He tells them they will face in Matthew 10:
{16} "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. {17} "But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; {18} and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. {19} "But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. {20} "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. {21} "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. {22} "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. {23} "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:16-23 (NASB)
Now, look what He tells the chief priests and scribes in Matthew 23:
{34} "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, {35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. {36} "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:34-36 (NASB)
He told the disciples they would be persecuted (face tribulation). He told the Sanhedrin they would persecute His messengers and would be held accountable for it.
Again, this is the persecution (tribulation) mentioned in Matthew 24:9.
But there is another tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24!
{21} "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:21 (NASB)
The tribulation of Matthew 24:9 is, therefore, both a cause and a sign of the "great tribulation" that would befall Jerusalem! (The language used in Matthew 24:21 is the same prophetic language used in the OT to describe the judgment of Jerusalem at the hands of the Babylonians.)
So now, with all this in mind, the next time you read the book of Revelation, think about this: the word tribulation (Greek: "thlipsis") is used only 5 times in the book of Revelation, and it's always used in association with believers (the tribulation of believers mentioned in Matthew 10 and 24).
After Revelation 7:14, however, that word is never used again in the book of Revelation! From chapter 8 until chapter 20, the focus shifts from the tribulation of believers to the outpouring of God's wrath. This is consistent with the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:15-28 and Luke 21:20-24.
In other words, what Matthew, Mark, and Luke discuss in a few verses, John discusses in 12 chapters: the (final) judgment of Jerusalem and Judea.
The evidence for this can be seen in great detail, especially in Revelation 17-19, but can be summarized in just a couple of verses (thanks for bearing with me):
{9} When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; {10} and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Revelation 6:9-10 (NASB)
(This is the same vengeance Christ has promised would befall the chief priests and scribes in Matthew 23.)
{6} And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly. Revelation 17:6 (NASB)
(The harlot is 1st century Jerusalem, which crucified Christ and slew His messengers beginning with Stephen. If you look at how she is dressed, you will see she is wearing the same vestments of the Levitical priesthood seen in Exodus.)
{24} "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." Revelation 18:24 (NASB)
(Seeing the connection yet?)
And finally:
{1} After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; {2} BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER." Revelation 19:1-2 (NASB)
There is only one city in history that slew both the OT prophets and NT witnesses of Christ: Jerusalem. This is how the gospels are inextricably linked to Revelation: through the Olivet Discourse.
Sorry for the long post.
The "end times" - as Christ and the apostles saw them - began and were signified by the events surrounding Christ's advent, earthly ministry, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension to the right hand of the Father, and ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple, thus bringing to an end forever the last vestiges of the Old Covenant (Law of Moses.)
And here is how those "end times" played out in the gospels and Revelation...
{3} As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, Mark 13:3 (NASB)
By this verse, we see that John is one of the four disciples sitting on the Mount of Olives for the Olivet Discourse, yet it appears nowhere in his gospel.
While the other gospels dedicate 1 or 2 full chapters to the Olivet Discourse, John wrote a whole book about it (Revelation), and here's just one of the clues for understanding that:
Look at Matthew 24:9
{9} "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. Matthew 24:9 (NASB)
This is the same tribulation He tells them they will face in Matthew 10:
{16} "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. {17} "But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; {18} and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. {19} "But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. {20} "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. {21} "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. {22} "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. {23} "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:16-23 (NASB)
Now, look what He tells the chief priests and scribes in Matthew 23:
{34} "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, {35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. {36} "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:34-36 (NASB)
He told the disciples they would be persecuted (face tribulation). He told the Sanhedrin they would persecute His messengers and would be held accountable for it.
Again, this is the persecution (tribulation) mentioned in Matthew 24:9.
But there is another tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24!
{21} "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:21 (NASB)
The tribulation of Matthew 24:9 is, therefore, both a cause and a sign of the "great tribulation" that would befall Jerusalem! (The language used in Matthew 24:21 is the same prophetic language used in the OT to describe the judgment of Jerusalem at the hands of the Babylonians.)
So now, with all this in mind, the next time you read the book of Revelation, think about this: the word tribulation (Greek: "thlipsis") is used only 5 times in the book of Revelation, and it's always used in association with believers (the tribulation of believers mentioned in Matthew 10 and 24).
After Revelation 7:14, however, that word is never used again in the book of Revelation! From chapter 8 until chapter 20, the focus shifts from the tribulation of believers to the outpouring of God's wrath. This is consistent with the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:15-28 and Luke 21:20-24.
In other words, what Matthew, Mark, and Luke discuss in a few verses, John discusses in 12 chapters: the (final) judgment of Jerusalem and Judea.
The evidence for this can be seen in great detail, especially in Revelation 17-19, but can be summarized in just a couple of verses (thanks for bearing with me):
{9} When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; {10} and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Revelation 6:9-10 (NASB)
(This is the same vengeance Christ has promised would befall the chief priests and scribes in Matthew 23.)
{6} And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly. Revelation 17:6 (NASB)
(The harlot is 1st century Jerusalem, which crucified Christ and slew His messengers beginning with Stephen. If you look at how she is dressed, you will see she is wearing the same vestments of the Levitical priesthood seen in Exodus.)
{24} "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth." Revelation 18:24 (NASB)
(Seeing the connection yet?)
And finally:
{1} After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; {2} BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER." Revelation 19:1-2 (NASB)
There is only one city in history that slew both the OT prophets and NT witnesses of Christ: Jerusalem. This is how the gospels are inextricably linked to Revelation: through the Olivet Discourse.
Sorry for the long post.
jasoncran
Member
atheism and that stuff isnt new. its believe by many a creationist that darwin borrowed from the egyptian idea of man coming from a goo.If Christ is the temple, then why are you looking for another temple?
Christianity is the Christ. He is the new covenant manifested in the flesh. He is not an extension of the old. Do you put new wine in an old wineskin?
'Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump' 1 Cor. 5:7
I'm not sure what you mean by the 'real' Judaism.
Christ was manifested at the end of the age. He was the sign given to his generation. He was manifested in the flesh and seen by angels. He did mighty works. He was condemned by his own people and put to death. He went into the earth for three days and three nights, and then the Father raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand.
Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained from the world. James 1:27
The Spirit of the Lord makes me look at my own generation and see the men of Nineveh condemning it. Is this to fulfill the saying, 'that which is to be, already has been' ? Ecc. 3:15 It could be. Still it makes me think the day of the LORD is at hand.
And I'm not talking about the hippies.
jasoncran
Member
on this note, the very creation order given to the ancient isrealites it was for them too see what god was not us. the bible isnt written to us but to them and we get it from them(all the writers were jews or isrealites).
now then that is real judiasm. we have been arguing over jewish concepts in prophecy!
when jesus spoke of a vineyard, the fig tree and so forth the jews knowing the prophets got what he meant.
at least look at the hebrew culture of then and try to understand that.
this is no wise to say that you gentiles cant learn from the bible just that when we ignore the initial culture of judiasm.
in fact what jesus did at communion is what jewish males to do declare their love for the their future wife when they pour the wine into the chalace.
jesus took that and made a new ritual for us.
we do church and leave god there, that isnt what the jews then did, god was taught to be in all and everwhere. to the jews of today and then its a culture heritage of god.
we dont do that nor even understand that. yes many a pastors say and some do take god everywhere with them.
that is what we are supposed to do!
and bam close to what i said. read it all from page one.
that is beautiful.
http://judaism.about.com/od/weddings/ss/wedding_how_5.htm
THERES MORE ON THIS if you take the time to read how isreal is often mentioned and god its amazing.
E
Elijah674
Guest
Interesting! Right out of Matt. 24!!
[48] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; (hey, this above is even posted up! See Eccl. 12:13-14!)
[49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
(not partipating except by associating! See Rev. 18:4 and smite his fellow servants?? calling them fanatics, huh;) See Matt. 10:25!:waving)
[50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
[51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Very Sad!)
Note Luke 12:47-48!
--Elijah
Me again:
Dan. 12:1-4 & Hosea 4:6 was not for today's ones??;)
[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
[3] And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
[4] But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Hosea 4
[6] 'My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:..'
Knowledge??? Some think that Christ does not know when He is 'physically' in the Cloud's COMING AGAIN even!
These are the times of the Gentiles, Jason. Don't reject me just because I don't sound Jewish. My understanding doesn't depend on your culture at all. Sorry. I don't mean to offend; but God is greater than your culture. And if I understand the Scriptures, it is God's will and not my own doing. Don't be jealous of your younger brother.
Everything is given its own time. There are things the disciples heard that they did not understand that I understand. So some things were meant for this time, for us, and some things were meant for them, for their time. That's why I say what I say.
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Hitch
Guest
:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny
The Lord rebuke you!
jasoncran
Member
:bigfrown mark t, i assume that is an apology for that deleted statement.
for the record, i wasnt raised in the temple. i was on the opposite end of these debates. last year while in the church i was led to this line of thinking by god.
i was also told by god, the ot is your history, your roots. im learning alot from allowing this.
there are jews like me who do believe in dispy, oddly. i talk to one often.on judiasm and things of that sort he can run circles around me
hitch pm me. i need a good commentary on revalation from your perspective. vic suggest adam clarke. is there more then him?
for the record, i wasnt raised in the temple. i was on the opposite end of these debates. last year while in the church i was led to this line of thinking by god.
i was also told by god, the ot is your history, your roots. im learning alot from allowing this.
there are jews like me who do believe in dispy, oddly. i talk to one often.on judiasm and things of that sort he can run circles around me
hitch pm me. i need a good commentary on revalation from your perspective. vic suggest adam clarke. is there more then him?
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H
Hitch
Guest
Now if you meant the Lord, the Second Person of the Trinity...
H
Hitch
Guest
This passage is part of the description of the Destruction and it is very likely the 'times of the Gentiles' came and went with judgment against Israel.
dbhoward20
Member
No one knows when Jesus will return. But prophecies are being fulfilled as we speak and they do not have to happen in a certain order for him to return. In my opinion I think he will return when we are in our most desperate times. What happens when your children are suffering? You save them. So when we are at the point when us his children are suffering then the command will be given for him to return but these are just my viewpoints.