What do you think constitutes a marriage?

[Nicole L. Sattler]

Just because something isn't specifically described in the Bible (such as a wedding ceremony performed by a pastor in a church with lots of people present) doesn't mean we shouldn't do it or that it is a bad idea. But if there are compelling reasons not to do it, it is not sinful to avoid it.

Same with the civil marriage (Let's not forget, Nicole is in Mexico where these things are done a bit differently than in the U.S., where a church wedding usually constitutes a civil wedding at the same time). There are benefits to the civil marriage, but if it the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, I see nothing in scripture to say that God will not honor a marriage just because a secular government doesn't recognize it.

Compared to the U.S., Mexico has a very corrupt government that is all about extorting money from people wherever possible. $30.00 for a marriage lic in a country where the equivalent of $100 U.S. dollars per week is considered an OK wage, and prices of many things are no longer any cheaper, and in fact more expensive than in the U.S. (if you want to by the same quality) is outrageous. I can understand why many people will choose to forgo the civil marriage even though it means loosing some possible benefits.

Oh, there is A LOT of corruption here...

I have to agree... as long is the couple is honest and is truely committed, I believe they can be together as man and wife.

I will go a little into detail about our situation again... Like I said, getting married in the U.S. is not an option for us sadly. In one week we get about 75 dollars, which is enough for everything we need plus internet (which is my connection to my family). We have to pay about 500 dollars to get married, which is horrible! Just because I am not Mexican.

I thought about going to the U.S. to work, but my family told me it would be too hard for me to find a job right now... I also don't have the money I need to go. A new friend from the states that I know hinted a bit that she would borrow money, but I would feel bad taking it because we have no way to pay her back.

--EDIT

Right now we only have number 1 (the commitment) after talking with our pastor and my mom. We are trying to get everything else done as soon as we can.

 

[Igor]

...We have to pay about 500 dollars to get married, which is horrible! Just because I am not Mexican.

Ah yes, I remember the "sliding scale" of prices depending on what nationality you appear to be. The old "Pelo do Gato" attitude toward anyone appearing to be North American! (Or was it "pelo de pero"? It was "pelo de" something with a lot of pelos, I remember that much!) Of course, importing your boyfriend to the US on a fiancé visa (probably the only practical way you could legally do this) will cost a lot more than $500 and you will probably need to hire a lawyer (maybe adding another $5000 to the cost!) to get you through the mess of U.S. immigration. Even then, and even if you do everything right, there is no guarantee. U.S. immigration is designed to make you give up and go away, not to facilitate legal entry to the U.S. for Mexican citizens that qualify. I've seen it firsthand. There are a lot of reasons normally law abiding Mexican citizens cross the border illegally other than that they are just criminals looking for the easy way out!

 

[handy]

Knowing the full story, Nicole, I think that if you and your man marry in the Christian church you have found, with your family and friends present...then that would constitute a godly marriage.

(Not knowing your entire history, I'm assuming that you are indeed free to marry...no husband here in the states...;))

As I mentioned in my post with the Ruth passage...there is no "Biblical" outline for marriage...just that it is to be a serious covenant before God and that covenants before God had witnesses within the community. Since it's not considered illegal in Mexico to be living together without a state licence...then, you are not violating any laws or even trying to defraud the government.

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

There are a lot of reasons normally law abiding Mexican citizens cross the border illegally other than that they are just criminals looking for the easy way out!

Oh, I cannot even begin to tell you how true that is.

A while ago, Luis (my "hubby") was in college for international business. He was in his 3rd year, and needed to take a class trip to Washington D.C. He was a top student in one of the best colleges in this state with a scholarship. He went to go apply for a visa with a letter of recommendation from the school. They said no because they thought he was just going to stay there in the U.S. They said he had nothing to make him come back to MX (money, property, a business... ect.)

I think that is just plain wrong. That was one of the reasons that he went to the U.S. illegally (and I am happy he did, because that is where I met him). He followed all of the laws in the U.S., but he decided that he didn't like the values. Family is very important here in MX, and everybody is helpful even if you don't know them.

Once our water was shut off and the neighbor let us fill our water tank on the top of the house with no questions asked.

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

Knowing the full story, Nicole, I think that if you and your man marry in the Christian church you have found, with your family and friends present...then that would constitute a godly marriage.

(Not knowing your entire history, I'm assuming that you are indeed free to marry...no husband here in the states...;))

As I mentioned in my post with the Ruth passage...there is no "Biblical" outline for marriage...just that it is to be a serious covenant before God and that covenants before God had witnesses within the community. Since it's not considered illegal in Mexico to be living together without a state licence...then, you are not violating any laws or even trying to defraud the government.

Well, the thing is I spoke to him about doing that, but the pastor said right now the vow is what matters. I am not sure if it is a law or if they just don't do it... but they only have church weddings after you have your marriage certificate.

--EDIT

So, do you would that be enough for God? I know that nobody can fully understand our commitment and vow we made... but since God can, do you think that when he saw we were honest and serious about it he approved?

 

[Igor]

...everybody is helpful even if you don't know them.

Once our water was shut off and the neighbor let us fill our water tank on the top of the house with no questions asked.

The memories you are bringing back! I remember travelling in Mexico (with a mexican girlfriend, I am American) to small villages where tourists never go, and being invited to spend the night in people's houses that we didn't even know just because we took the time to be freindly with them! She used to tell me that this is the way the real Mexico is, and I got to see it firsthand!

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

The memories you are bringing back! I remember travelling in Mexico (with a mexican girlfriend, I am American) to small villages where tourists never go, and being invited to spend the night in people's houses that we didn't even know just because we took the time to be freindly with them! She used to tell me that this is the way the real Mexico is, and I got to see it firsthand!

Oh, that must have been fun...

I never got invited to stay over at someone's house, but everybody has been very friendly.

Where did you go in MX?

 

[Igor]

Oh, that must have been fun...

I never got invited to stay over at someone's house, but everybody has been very friendly.

Where did you go in MX?

That's a hard one to remember. Traveled through most of the west coast states from Sonora as far south as Guerrero, including Baja Norte and Baja Sur. Some of the central and east cost states as well including Chihuahua, Coahuilla, Nuevo Leon,Tamaulipas, San Luis Potosi, VeraCruz, Aguascalientes. That's about all I remember right now. Of course, I was in some of the bigger towns, Acapulco, the infamous Ciudad Juarez (where I learned about U.S. immigration tactics)etc, but don't even remember most of the small town and village names anymore. Miquehana (spelling?) was one. El Ojo De Agua and Farias were a couple of others. Those are in Tamaulipas. Omatepic was in Guerrero, I think. There were so many.

We had a 4wheel drive truck with a slide in camper, prices were cheap then, and crime was very low (almost non-existent compared to most of the U.S.). Sometimes while talking to people in the little villages, we would find out that someone knew someone in a town where my girlfriend had relatives. That was about all it took to get an invitation to stay for the night. People would loan us horses to ride and share some of the secret places to go swimming, or to hike in the mountains, or get the best food or search for pre-revolution stashes of gold! Most places no one spoke any English (sometimes they spoke Mayan!) and most of the people seldom, if ever, saw or talked to an American. If we got sick or hurt there was always a local doctor or nurse that would take care of us for only a "donation" of a few dollars. For a mechanical breakdown, there were local mechanics that could work magic with almost no resources to fix the problem as a favor or for only a few dollars without just telling us we have to spend thousands of dollars for new parts as they do in the U.S. Those were good times!

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

That's a hard one to remember. Traveled through most of the west coast states from Sonora as far south as Guerrero, including Baja Norte and Baja Sur. Some of the central and east cost states as well including Chihuahua, Coahuilla, Nuevo Leon,Tamaulipas, San Luis Potosi, VeraCruz, Aguascalientes. That's about all I remember right now. Of course, I was in some of the bigger towns, Acapulco, the infamous Ciudad Juarez (where I learned about U.S. immigration tactics)etc, but don't even remember most of the small town and village names anymore. Miquehana (spelling?) was one. El Ojo De Agua and Farias were a couple of others. Those are in Tamaulipas. Omatepic was in Guerrero, I think. There were so many.

We had a 4wheel drive truck with a slide in camper, prices were cheap then, and crime was very low (almost non-existent compared to most of the U.S.). Sometimes while talking to people in the little villages, we would find out that someone knew someone in a town where my girlfriend had relatives. That was about all it took to get an invitation to stay for the night. People would loan us horses to ride and share some of the secret places to go swimming, or to hike in the mountains, or get the best food or search for pre-revolution stashes of gold! Most places no one spoke any English (sometimes they spoke Mayan!) and most of the people seldom, if ever, saw or talked to an American. If we got sick or hurt there was always a local doctor or nurse that would take care of us for only a "donation" of a few dollars. For a mechanical breakdown, there were local mechanics that could work magic with almost no resources to fix the problem as a favor or for only a few dollars without just telling us we have to spend thousands of dollars for new parts as they do in the U.S. Those were good times!

Wow, that sounds like a good time! I am in León... about an hour or so away from Aguascalientes. Do you ever plan to come back to Mexico?

You are right that everything is cheap here... even in the city. We went to a walk-in clinic and they only charged about 2 dollars to see the doctor! Did you ever go to any street markets? They are the best. We have one by our house that comes every Monday. That is were we buy all of our fruits and veggies.

What I like about this city is you get the best of both worlds. There are a few Wal-Marts, Home Depots, McDonalds, Burger Kings, Pizza Huts, KFCs, Little Ceasars, malls... everything that you can think of... haha... But then you have all of the authentic Mexican foods, markets and so on.

 

[Fire_inside21]

The only way I have ever seen it is as, when you get married, you are not only marrying each other but also God, who in turn calls us (as a Church) the bride of Christ.

 

[Igor]

Wow, that sounds like a good time! I am in León... about an hour or so away from Aguascalientes. Do you ever plan to come back to Mexico?

Not to hijack your thread any worse than I already have... But then it IS your thread;

You are close to Aguascalientes. Have you been there? That was one of the places we stayed with local people. Actually, if i remember right it was a little village a few miles from there called Rincon de Ramos. They took us to a wonderful swimming hole where there were warm waterfalls (Aguascalientes is a good name for the place!) falling into a pond for swimming that had a great sandy shoreline. We climbed to the top of the waterfalls too where the river was flowing through the jungle and there were several more small swimming holes. There was coffee growing wild, and it was the first time I ever ate raw, wild coffee. It was delicious!

I wish I could go back sometime, but probably wont be able too. This was back when I had investment income and fuel was cheap. Now fuel for my truck is over $4.00/gallon, the stock market crashed and I lost most everything, and the girlfriend (who was key to getting in the door) who I married walked out after becoming too Americanized. But I sure miss Mexico.

...Did you ever go to any street markets? They are the best. We have one by our house that comes every Monday. That is were we buy all of our fruits and veggies.

What I like about this city is you get the best of both worlds. There are a few Wal-Marts, Home Depots, McDonalds, Burger Kings, Pizza Huts, KFCs, Little Ceasars, malls... everything that you can think of... haha... But then you have all of the authentic Mexican foods, markets and so on.

Yeah, when I first started going there the street markets were about the only place to get most of your food. One time in, I think it was in Colima, I got to watch a pig get slaugtered and butchered right in front of me so I could buy pork. I guess you can't get fresher meat that that, but it really grossed me out. I still remember it when eating meat, and remember to say an extra thanks to God for the poor creature that gave up it's life for my dinner!

At first the bigger cites had Gigante or Soreana markets, but most places the majority of food came from the street market, then the local mom and pop tiendas filled in between market days. The wonderful fresh fruit and veggies spoiled me so bad, I still am dissapointed everytime I buy produce in American markets. In fact, I just finished making some salsa verde with tomatillos that I just bought yesterday, and they are already starting to go bad! McDonald's and KFC were there but all the other places got left behind at the northern frontera. But by the end of my last trip, all the ones you mentioned were already there.

While we are on the subject of life in Mexico, we here in the states keep hearing about all the new drug crimes that seem to be affecting everyone all over Mexico now. Have you seen much of that where you are? My ex-inlaws have told me that they have seen firsthand some serious problems (kidnappings for ransom, etc) right in their previously crime free neighborhood. I guess it's not all just American news media hype. How is it where you live? Have you seen any of it or is it still pretty safe there?

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

You are close to Aguascalientes. Have you been there? That was one of the places we stayed with local people. Actually, if i remember right it was a little village a few miles from there called Rincon de Ramos. They took us to a wonderful swimming hole where there were warm waterfalls (Aguascalientes is a good name for the place!) falling into a pond for swimming that had a great sandy shoreline. We climbed to the top of the waterfalls too where the river was flowing through the jungle and there were several more small swimming holes. There was coffee growing wild, and it was the first time I ever ate raw, wild coffee. It was delicious

I have only been there traveling through on a bus. I do want to go there for a day, though just to walk around and see the city. I also want to find that waterfall you are talking about! Have you ever heard of Lagos de Moreno? We used to go there every weekend to go fishing. It feels like it is in the middle of nowhere with all of the dirt roads, but is is fun.

I wish I could go back sometime, but probably wont be able too. This was back when I had investment income and fuel was cheap. Now fuel for my truck is over $4.00/gallon, the stock market crashed and I lost most everything, and the girlfriend (who was key to getting in the door) who I married walked out after becoming too Americanized. But I sure miss Mexico.

Sorry to hear that...
And about becoming "Americanized"... that is what Luis was always talking about to me. The little city where I am from (Fond du Lac, WI) was a nice little place, but the people had no values it seemed. All of our "friends" were running around crazy, drinking every weekend, cheating on their bf/gf or even their husband or wife. But is seems like that is pretty much everywhere now. It is sad, they say the average that a girl starts having "relations" is about 13 or 14.

Yeah, when I first started going there the street markets were about the only place to get most of your food. One time in, I think it was in Colima, I got to watch a pig get slaugtered and butchered right in front of me so I could buy pork. I guess you can't get fresher meat that that, but it really grossed me out. I still remember it when eating meat, and remember to say an extra thanks to God for the poor creature that gave up it's life for my dinner!

:o I don't think I could watch my food get slaughtered. I think that would ruin meat for me forever... haha. We get ours from the caniceria, but I never saw them actually slaughter any animals.

While we are on the subject of life in Mexico, we here in the states keep hearing about all the new drug crimes that seem to be affecting everyone all over Mexico now. Have you seen much of that where you are? My ex-inlaws have told me that they have seen firsthand some serious problems (kidnappings for ransom, etc) right in their previously crime free neighborhood. I guess it's not all just American news media hype. How is it where you live? Have you seen any of it or is it still pretty safe there?

Well, I haven't seen and drug crimes... but theft is a bit of a big thing here. Usually with small things, though, such as car stereos and equipment. I hear about kidnappings, but usually they only kidnap people that are rich or have rich families.

Luis works with a friend in an audio shop. The shop is owned by the friend and it seems to be doing well. His family also has money from what I am told. One day some guys came in and held them at gunpoint and took the friend's brother. I am not sure what all happened, but he ended up getting home safely. Another time, about a month or so ago, some guys came in with guns again and trying to rob the store. Thankfully, they could not close the sliding doors to close everybody in and keep people from seeing so they left. It seems unless you have money, you really don't have to worry about that stuff.

In my area where I live, it seems pretty nice and quite... except for all of the noisy kids... haha.

 

[Igor]

I also want to find that waterfall you are talking about!

I wish I could remember what the place was called, but it isn't coming to me. It was a park, not wilderness, but it wasn't close to town either. The local people took us there in their truck. The family running it saw me and wanted to charge us the "Norte Americano" price of NP$500/person to enter, but the driver convinced them I was really a Mexican in disguise, related to long time families in the area, so they let us in free!

It was at the end of a dirt road, but I couldn't tell you where the road was. Not much help, am I? In fact, now that I've slept on it I'm beginning to wonder if it was close to Rincon de Ramos, or to San Luis Potosi (city). It might have been SLPotosi. There were a lot of irrigation canals, even in town, lots of big shade trees with birds singing in them, cobblestone streets, and a lot of sugar cane growing nearby... Ah, the memories. I wish I was back there again!

Have you ever heard of Lagos de Moreno? We used to go there every weekend to go fishing. It feels like it is in the middle of nowhere with all of the dirt roads, but is is fun.

The name sounds vaguely familiar. It sounds like a great place, but I don't remember ever being there. There was a place in Tamaulipas called "La Presa" that was like that.

...they say the average that a girl starts having "relations" is about 13 or 14.

Scary, isn't it? I've seen that too. Is it any better where you are now? I know some of the kids where my ex-inlaws live seem to start pretty early too. Of course, in some cultures, if you aren't married and starting a family by 14, they think there must be something wrong with you!

...One day some guys came in and held them at gunpoint and took the friend's brother. I am not sure what all happened, but he ended up getting home safely. Another time, about a month or so ago, some guys came in with guns again and trying to rob the store. Thankfully, they could not close the sliding doors to close everybody in and keep people from seeing so they left. It seems unless you have money, you really don't have to worry about that stuff...

Yeah, that's the kind of stuff I've been hearing about. It wasn't that long ago that this kind of thing was almost unheard of outside of the drug running circles. (And maybe in some of the northern border towns, but most of that was committed by American gangsters that got deported to Mexico, not by real Mexicans!) Now it's affecting the common people. Used to be that petty theft was about the biggest thing you had to worry about. I'll take the noisy kids any day!

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

Thanks everyone.

We decided to wait and see if he can get a visa so we can go to TX. It should be a little bit cheaper without all of the paperwork.