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    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

What does the Bible mean by "Predestination"?

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Re: It is written...

You asked me a direct question..

have you read much about Jacob? How did he serve God more so than Esau?

That has nothing to do with predestination and I am trying to stay on topic. You asked if I read much about Jacob and how he served God. Let's stay on topic here and not ask for my opinions.

Again I think it clearly relates to how God Conforms man to His purpose! And I think God might even wrestle with a man to bring him into "His Will" :)
 
Re: It is written...

Again I think it clearly relates to how God Conforms man to His purpose! And I think God might even wrestle with a man to bring him into "His Will" :)


I addressed this in post 195
 
Re: It is written...

This is NOT correct... the verse does NOT say that God hated Esau before he was born.. it says that it is written...

AND where or when was it written..?

In the book of Malachi.. and that was written centuries AFTER Esau lived his life.

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

What part of not being born yet you don't understand???Also you failed to address the below verse

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

How did He know him?????

And please don't give me that,because He know's everything...................
 
Re: It is written...

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

What part of not being born yet you don't understand???Also you failed to address the below verse

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

How did He know him?????

And please don't give me that,because He know's everything...................
Here is a clue! He is not the Great "I Was" nor The Great "I will be" He is the Great" I Am"! The Alpha and Omega, A day is as a 1000 years and a 1000 years as a day! If you think God to be in this "temporal" realm, You are very mistaken!:chin
 
Re: It is written...

Here is a clue! He is not the Great "I Was" nor The Great "I will be" He is the Great" I Am"! The Alpha and Omega, A day is as a 1000 years and a 1000 years as a day! If you think God to be in this "temporal" realm, You are very mistaken!:chin

I'm aware of all that,however you still didn't answer the question...................
 
Re: It is written...

I'm aware of all that,however you still didn't answer the question...................
Well if He (God) knows the end from the beginning, your question has been answered! maybe you dont understand or like the answer but I would ask you how could He (God), not know? instead of how does or did He know him?
 
Re: It is written...

Well if He (God) knows the end from the beginning, your question has been answered! maybe you dont understand or like the answer but I would ask you how could He (God), not know? instead of how does or did He know him?

My answer is as I said from the beginning,He knew him because he was there with him before being born of the flesh!!!!!
 
Re: It is written...

My answer is as I said from the beginning,He knew him because he was there with him before being born of the flesh!!!!!

I kinda knew that was what you wanted to say:sad
I kinda like you, so having read your early post, I know that what you are trying to claim cannot be shown in the accepted scriptures. So tell me what "prophet" or extra-biblical books did you get this from? :chin
 
Re: It is written...

I kinda knew that was what you wanted to say:sad
I kinda like you, so having read your early post, I know that what you are trying to claim cannot be shown in the accepted scriptures. So tell me what "prophet" or extra-biblical books did you get this from? :chin

I gave you the scriptures,and your answer was , God knows everything.....
 
What do you think it's meant by ye must be born again???

Let's look at the verse


John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

This is a very interesting statement, and in most King James Bibles the margin reads "again" as being "from above". In Strong's Greek dictionary, # 509, the word is "Anothen", "from above". You will never understand this statement that Jesus made unless you understand what it means to be "born from above." In a later verse, it is documented that you must be "born from above", or your soul will be lost for eternity.

The church world has their sayings and songs that "Ye must be born again", and yet these verses they sin miss the mark, because they do not understand what it means to be "born from above" [born again]. This is part of God's plan that everyone [every soul] be born of woman, from above. For documentation we find in the Book of Jude whereby the penalty of the fallen angels is given, in as much as they left their place of habitation. Angels are to inhabit heaven, or paradise at this time, in the flesh age.
Jude 6; "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Angels are not to be on the earth in the flesh age, except on special mission by God Himself. These angels that are in chains and bound for destruction, left the heavens without the permission of God, and as it is written in Genesis 6, were not born from above, but came from above.

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

"Verily, verily" is "truly, truly". Jesus is telling him that there must be two births necessary; the birth of the water and of the spirit. Many people teach that this "born of the water", means to be baptized, and this is not what is being talked about. To be born from above is to be born of the womb of your mother. Every child is born in a bag of water, in fact the normal birth is announced by the breaking of the waters with in the birthing bag. So we see in this that one must be born of woman, in innocence, and then "be born of the spirit".Born of the spirit means to accept the Spirit of Christ. That soul choosing by free will the Spirit of Christ into their spirit. That is what the marriage of Christ is all about; to become one in Christ.

This is why most people simply do not know what being "born from above means", when they disregard what happened in the book of Genesis, and in that first earth age. They overlook all of Satan's attempts to destroy the womb of woman, and God's plan to send us His Son that we might have redemption. God intervened in Satan attempt, as He always will do. This is why the book of Jude is so important.


John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven."

Here now is the second witness to those things given, as to how you must be born from above. There is no way that you can make baptism out of this verse. It sums up the whole matter of being born from above.

No man, no one goes to heaven, but that he first was born from above. That soul must first be born of women, where the soul entered the womb at conception, and when the flesh body dies, it is returned to the father. There is not a living being on this earth, that did not come down from the Father first, and at death shall return to the Father. That is just plain common sense.

This doesn't mean that they are all going to have eternal life, but heaven is where the Father is, and that is where the judgment takes place. But what is meant here is in reference to obtaining salvation for their soul, or eternal life. All souls return to the Father, and many of those that do return will be condemned to destruction. The judgment takes place at the time of the great white throne judgment. Until that time, those sinning souls will stay right there in paradise where there is a great gulf between God and the sinning soul This is stated in the parable of the rich man, in Luke 16. There has been no soul destroyed to this date, that has passed on after death.

So what this thirteenth verse is saying, is about being born again. It means that you must be born from above. You can't be as those fallen angels, and take short-cuts, but it must be done according to God's plan of salvation.

The same way that Christ was with the Father and came down,so it is also with us........
 
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Re: It is written...

I gave you the scriptures,and your answer was , God knows everything.....
Thats not exactly what I said, Was it?:sad
But do you have a problem that He knows the end from the beginning? Are you saying that He does not?



Psa 139:12

Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Psa 139:13

For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
Psa 139:15

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
Psa 139:16

Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Psa 139:17

How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
Psa 139:18


If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

Are you sure of your views?:chin
 
Re: It is written...

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

What part of not being born yet you don't understand???

There is plenty in the living and powerful word of God which I do not fully understand. Although with respect to this verse we can go back to Genesis and read the story to glean some interesting things.. and there we find that there were two NATIONS in her womb..

And because the word of God is living and powerful we need to be careful and prayerful of its context because it's all part of the grand story itself.. we can't simply isolate a few verses and then think that it's saying that WE preexisted in another earth age..

IMO that's centering the grand theme of the story on people and not the LORD.. and yet we know that in the volume of the book it is written of HIM..

WE also know from Romans 5 that condemnation has come upon ALL MEN and that DEATH has passed upon all men.. and that ALL MEN can be justified in Christ Jesus, the Last Adam..

See how important it is to keep the grand theme in mind.. ?

And once again, I could be completely wrong.. all I can do is look at the mountains of evidence (as can you) and try to put some stakes in the ground so to speak.

Also you failed to address the below verse

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

How did He know him?????

And please don't give me that,because He know's everything...................

That's what the LORD does.. He actually works through His own creation to accomplish His purposes.. and it's ALL centered upon His only begotten and beloved Son.
 

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
"Verily, verily" is "truly, truly". Jesus is telling him that there must be two births necessary; the birth of the water and of the spirit. Many people teach that this "born of the water", means to be baptized, and this is not what is being talked about. To be born from above is to be born of the womb of your mother. Every child is born in a bag of water, in fact the normal birth is announced by the breaking of the waters with in the birthing bag. So we see in this that one must be born of woman, in innocence, and then "be born of the spirit".Born of the spirit means to accept the Spirit of Christ. That soul choosing by free will the Spirit of Christ into their spirit. That is what the marriage of Christ is all about; to become one in Christ.


Totally false by logic and disregard for the scripture,

We have Jesus announcing TWO requirements of salvation:

  1. "born of water"
  2. "born of Spirit"
Each one explicitly denoting something that must be done to gain salvation.
Certainly our Lord would not be telling us we are half way there the moment our mothers water breaks, and if it were so he would not have even mentioned it.


The word "γεννηθη" "give birth to" is used first in John 3:3 Nicodemus states "a second time" denoting he understood it to be a second birth, and Jesus used "γεννηθη" in John 3:5 adding the word "ανωθεν" "again" meaning literally a second birth. (obviously Nicodemus "who was fluent in the language" rightfully asked the question "how")

Being it was a fact then as it is now that we cannot be "born again of our mother" Jesus says: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit".

So unless a man is "Baptized by Water and by doing so receive the Holy Spirit, he cannot be saved, this is affirmed here:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
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Totally false by logic and disregard for the scripture,

We have Jesus announcing TWO requirements of salvation:

  1. "born of water"
  2. "born of Spirit"
Each one explicitly denoting something that must be done to gain salvation.
Certainly our Lord would not be telling us we are half way there the moment our mothers water breaks, and if it were so he would not have even mentioned it.


The word "γεννηθη" is used first in John 3:2 adding the word "ανωθεν" "again" meaning literally a second birth. (obviously Nicodemus "who was fluent in the language" rightfully asked the question "how")

Being it was a fact then as it is now that we cannot be "born again of our mother" Jesus says: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit".

So unless a man is "Baptized by Water and by doing so receive the Holy Spirit, he cannot be saved, this is affirmed here:

Acts 2:38 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

They that worship Him must worship in "spirit" and "truth" ...My Word is Spirit and Truth! We are born-again by the "Word of God" which is the water that washes the conscience. The baptism in water is the answer of our conscience toward God! It is an "act of Righteousness" seeing we have been "made right" with God!
 
They that worship Him must worship in "spirit" and "truth" ...My Word is Spirit and Truth! We are born-again by the "Word of God" which is the water that washes the conscience. The baptism in water is the answer of our conscience toward God! It is an "act of Righteousness" seeing we have been "made right" with God!

Ahh, the good old "outward sign of an inward grace"

Jesus said:

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Therefore one is NOT saved until baptized, and by lack of bringing it up in the later half of the sentence it is clear that "belief" is a prerequisite to baptism as without belief there is no need to be baptized.
 
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Ahh, the good old "outward sign of an inward grace"

Jesus said:

Mark 16:16 (KJV)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Therefore one is NOT saved until baptized, and by lack of bringing it up in the later half of the sentence it is clear that "faith" is a prerequisite to baptism as without faith there is no need to be baptized.

Yea the truth seems to stick around for a while?
1Co 1:14

I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15

Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16

And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If only the Apostle Paul had your understanding? He would not have wasted his time with the Word of God!

1Pe 1:22

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Pe 1:23

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Pe 3:21

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I think we may be off topic? so to stay out of trouble, I will read your reply and leave it at that!:)
 
1Pe 3:21

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I think we may be off topic? so to stay out of trouble, I will read your reply and leave it at that!:)

Lets back up one verse and include it.

1 Peter 3:20-21 (KJV)
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


One is NOT saved until baptized by water.

You are correct, in response to a segment of n2thelight, we have drifted off topic...
 
:bounceballLet's make sure we are keeping the subject matter in line with the threads subject of Predestination.
 

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