What events in the Bible did not actually occur?

[for_his_glory]

Yes, that is true.

I do disagree with you concerning the resurrection. Jesus did ascend as a Man into Heaven. Flesh and bone, with the same physical Body He died in.

And we too will get our same physical body resurrected and glorified. If i'ts not the same body, it is not a resurrection.

I think we have had this discussion before.

Quantrill

Matthew Chapter 20

When Jesus died His physical body stopped functioning just like anyone's body when they die. We know He came back to life, Matthew 28:1-10. When Mary Magdalene arrived at the tomb that morning His body was not there, John 20:2. She did not recognize Jesus when He spoke to her as she thought Him to be the gardener as it took her a few minutes to discover that His new body was different as it had been transformed from a mortal to an immortal body, John 20:14-16.

When the disciples were gathered in the upper room behind locked doors in fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst of them and they knew not who He was until Jesus showed them His hands and His side.

This all shows that when Christ returns and we are given our new immortal, incorruptible Spiritual bodies we will no longer look like who we are now.

 

[Lilac]

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


On the 6th day, both male and female were created. Eve on the other hand, was taken from Adam and formed.

Adam was created a Son of God, just as Jesus was created a Son of God. The First man Adam, the Last man Adam.
The Church is symbolic of Eve. She is the Bride of Christ. She was created by Him, and She was taken from Him, as She is of Him.

The Church, the Bride of Christ, just like Eve, is still tempted by the fruit of the book (tree) of the knowledge of good and evil. In her innocence she still thinks it a fruit to make one wise. Adam fell to this temptation. Jesus overcame it.


And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground,
and thy speech shall be low out of the dust,
and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground,
and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

Hello Ezrider,
hope you are well.
trying to get the point of your post?
Thanks

 

[Quantrill]

Agreed, of course. Scripture plainly says so.


So are you of the reformed belief system?



Don't you believe all of humanity fell?


1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Isaiah 53:6
All of us like sheep have gone astray,

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men,




John 8:23
23And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.

Jesus was simply saying that He was the only person that came from heaven.
He was begotten,,,not made. Jesus was part of the Trinity even before He was born as a human person.

We, instead are born here on earth of our earthly mother and father.
God knew us but we were not created till our parents "created" us.

Quantrill,,,,
We had this conversation some time ago.
I seem to remember reading that you do NOT consider yourself of the reformed faith....a calvinist.

Therefore, you're presenting a new concept which does not seem to be correct to me.
Jesus DID say that those who believe in Him ARE His sheep.
John 3:16
WHOSOEVER believes will have eternal life.
Believes is a present tense word.
It does not say WHOEVER BELIEVED....which would necessarily have to be the past tense, if you were correct.

I hold to some things of the reformed faith. But not all.

Yes, all of humanity fell. But only those of God were lost, as I explained. My opinion.

I disagree with your statement concerning (John 8:23), as I explained.

I didn't say those who believe are not His sheep. (John 3:16) says whosoever believes receives eternal life. I agree. But Jesus is clear in (John 10:26) that one must be His sheep in order to believe. In other words, one must be lost. Must have been God's possession before.

And Jesus is clear that those who he is speaking to in (John 10:26) are not his sheep. And that is why they don't believe. They are not lost. They were never of God.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Likewise
I remember a physical bible study on Job quite some time ago, and would have to look for this again.

It is a great Book. Because it is the oldest, there is so much there for our learning. And of course I believe that the story of Job was real. He was a real person. The things he went through were real. All occurred just like the Book says.

Good luck finding those notes. I try to keep up with mind, but it is difficult.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Matthew Chapter 20

When Jesus died His physical body stopped functioning just like anyone's body when they die. We know He came back to life, Matthew 28:1-10. When Mary Magdalene arrived at the tomb that morning His body was not there, John 20:2. She did not recognize Jesus when He spoke to her as she thought Him to be the gardener as it took her a few minutes to discover that His new body was different as it had been transformed from a mortal to an immortal body, John 20:14-16.

When the disciples were gathered in the upper room behind locked doors in fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst of them and they knew not who He was until Jesus showed them His hands and His side.

This all shows that when Christ returns and we are given our new immortal, incorruptible Spiritual bodies we will no longer look like who we are now.

I disagree with you strongly in this.

Quantrill

 

[ezrider]

Hello Ezrider,
hope you are well.
trying to get the point of your post?
Thanks

Adam and Eve were not created on the sixth day. On the 6th day God created BOTH male and female. The story of Adam is different than that of the 6th day creation just as the story of Jesus is different than the 6th day creation.

Adam was formed out of the dust of the earth a Son of God. Then as the story goes, he had no one to help, so a part of Adam was taken from him to form Eve. Likewise Jesus too was formed out of the dust of the earth, born of a virgin. Jesus was faithful, even unto death of the cross, so that HIS SPIRIT may be used to form his bride: His church; His Eve.

In the scriptures, Israel is referred to as the Lord's Wife, just as we see the Church referred to as the Bride of Christ. Neither Israel or the Church are representative of one single individual. How does the Church view itself? Does she not think of herself as helping her husband Jesus to save lost souls and to rule over this world?

humble soul said somewhere earlier in this thread something to the effect that he didn't get bogged down with the historical aspect, but rather looked to the lessons to be learned. This approach is honorable, as it seeks the Spirit of the Lord in his understanding and comprehension, and it becomes a part of him.

The scriptures are a history book? What has mankind ever learned from history? Are we not doomed to repeat it? What does the scripture say, there is nothing new under the sun? If the scriptures are to be only taken literally, then what do we ever learn from them? If you only take things literal or as explicitly historical, are you feeding the flesh or are you feeding your Spirit? In the scripture it is written that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. To which do you seek after, life or death?

Two people can hold the same scriptures in their hands: to one it is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; to the other it is the tree of life. It just depends on how you look at it and how you treat it.


Ironically, I oftentimes learn more things of a Spiritual nature when I read literature other than the bible itself. But then again, Adam was told all the trees of the garden were good for food; All except that one!

 

[Quantrill]

Ironically, I oftentimes learn more things of a Spiritual nature when I read literature other than the bible itself.

I can tell.

Your 'theology', if it is correct to call it that, is certainly not based upon the Bible.

Quantrill

 

[ezrider]

I can tell.

Your 'theology', if it is correct to call it that, is certainly not based upon the Bible.

Quantrill

Oh, it's much too late. I don't think Jesus took any time to explain himself to the Pharisees, neither will I explain myself to you. Not even if you asked.

 

[GodsGrace]

I hold to some things of the reformed faith. But not all.

Yes, all of humanity fell. But only those of God were lost, as I explained. My opinion.

I disagree with your statement concerning (John 8:23), as I explained.

I didn't say those who believe are not His sheep. (John 3:16) says whosoever believes receives eternal life. I agree. But Jesus is clear in (John 10:26) that one must be His sheep in order to believe. In other words, one must be lost. Must have been God's possession before.

And Jesus is clear that those who he is speaking to in (John 10:26) are not his sheep. And that is why they don't believe. They are not lost. They were never of God.

Quantrill

OK Quantrill,,,
We'll never agree on this concept of yours and I don't believe it's biblical and I don't know what denomination teaches this since it is not mainline Christianity.

I'd like to just say that if you understood that I said that those who believe are NOT His sheep, then I must have misspoken....
Those that believe ARE Jesus' sheep.

John 3:16 and John 10:26 cannot conflict.
There can be no conflict in Jesus' words OR we would be unable to trust anything He said.

I'll just quickly go over it...I know I wont' change your mind, but it might be helpful for those reading along.


John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


John 10:26
26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.


In John 3:16 Jesus is saying that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life.
John 3:18 states that those that believe in Jesus will not be judged,,,those who do not believe have already been judged
because they have not believed in the name of the Son of God.

It's up to us to either believe in Jesus or not to believe in Him.
In Matthew 4:17 Jesus tells us to repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
He would not tell us to repent if we were UNABLE to...the fact that Jesus commands
this shows that it is our choice.

Same for Matthew 7:24-27 The wise man and the foolish man. Jesus states that we are to ACT on His words....
this action of ours is a free will choice that we make...we can either act on His words or not act on His words.

In John 8:31 Jesus tells those Jews WHO HAD BELIEVED in Him...that IF they remained in His Word,,,then they were truly disciples of His. IF means they had the free will choice to remain in His Word or to not remain in His Word.

So we see that we choose Jesus for our salvation....

Now moving on to John 10:26

In John 10:9 Jesus states that HE is the door and that IF anyone enters through Him, he shall be saved.
John 10:26 says that they do not believe because they are not of His sheep.

But we have to remember that they chose not to be of Jesus' sheep.
And even today those that are not of His sheep do not believe Him..because only His sheep (us) believe Him and know His voice and follow Him.

It's like 1 Corinthians 2:4....the natural man, those that do not believe, do not accept the things of the spirit of God.

 

[for_his_glory]

I disagree with you strongly in this.

Quantrill

Take it or leave it as I only gave what was written in the scriptures I presented. Can you explain to me what you do not agree with?

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, that is true.

I do disagree with you concerning the resurrection. Jesus did ascend as a Man into Heaven. Flesh and bone, with the same physical Body He died in.

And we too will get our same physical body resurrected and glorified. If i'ts not the same body, it is not a resurrection.

I think we have had this discussion before.

Quantrill

If Jesus ascended into heaven with His human flesh and blood body then why did Mary nor His disciples recognize Him when He came to them? Even Thomas doubted it was Jesus standing before him.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, that is true.

I do disagree with you concerning the resurrection. Jesus did ascend as a Man into Heaven. Flesh and bone, with the same physical Body He died in.

And we too will get our same physical body resurrected and glorified. If i'ts not the same body, it is not a resurrection.

I think we have had this discussion before.

Quantrill

You don't have to agree with me, but at least wanted to share this with you.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

(as He is, not as He was)

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Cor 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Think about all those who have died before us as by now many of their dead bodies have turned to dust. We are raised a Spiritual body, not a fleshly body as we are changed in the resurrection.

 

[GodsGrace]

You don't have to agree with me, but at least wanted to share this with you.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

(as He is, not as He was)

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Cor 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Think about all those who have died before us as by now many of their dead bodies have turned to dust. We are raised a Spiritual body, not a fleshly body as we are changed in the resurrection.

The above is in line with what I've learned.
The resurrection just means that our bodies will be given back to us....
but they will not be the same as those we have now.

Quantrill believes that Jesus ascended as a man....
Jesus ascended in His glorified body which is why some did not even recognize Him.
Also, He still had the nail signs in his hands but it did not hurt. Also in His side as Thomas wanted to
see the spear cut with his own eyes.

However, Jesus did eat. We can not pretend to understand what this glorified body will be, but we know it will
be different. (for all the reasons of the verses you posted).

 

[for_his_glory]

The above is in line with what I've learned.
The resurrection just means that our bodies will be given back to us....
but they will not be the same as those we have now.

Quantrill believes that Jesus ascended as a man....
Jesus ascended in His glorified body which is why some did not even recognize Him.
Also, He still had the nail signs in his hands but it did not hurt. Also in His side as Thomas wanted to
see the spear cut with his own eyes.

However, Jesus did eat. We can not pretend to understand what this glorified body will be, but we know it will
be different. (for all the reasons of the verses you posted).

Yes, Jesus did eat even after receiving His new glorified body that consist of flesh and bone, but not of a perishable flesh like we also will have in the resurrection. We have no clue what that looks like, but it must be very different in a way that others could not recognize Him.

 

[Quantrill]

OK Quantrill,,,
We'll never agree on this concept of yours and I don't believe it's biblical and I don't know what denomination teaches this since it is not mainline Christianity.

I'd like to just say that if you understood that I said that those who believe are NOT His sheep, then I must have misspoken....
Those that believe ARE Jesus' sheep.

John 3:16 and John 10:26 cannot conflict.
There can be no conflict in Jesus' words OR we would be unable to trust anything He said.

I'll just quickly go over it...I know I wont' change your mind, but it might be helpful for those reading along.


John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


John 10:26
26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.


In John 3:16 Jesus is saying that whoever believes in Him will have eternal life.
John 3:18 states that those that believe in Jesus will not be judged,,,those who do not believe have already been judged
because they have not believed in the name of the Son of God.

It's up to us to either believe in Jesus or not to believe in Him.
In Matthew 4:17 Jesus tells us to repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
He would not tell us to repent if we were UNABLE to...the fact that Jesus commands
this shows that it is our choice.

Same for Matthew 7:24-27 The wise man and the foolish man. Jesus states that we are to ACT on His words....
this action of ours is a free will choice that we make...we can either act on His words or not act on His words.

In John 8:31 Jesus tells those Jews WHO HAD BELIEVED in Him...that IF they remained in His Word,,,then they were truly disciples of His. IF means they had the free will choice to remain in His Word or to not remain in His Word.

So we see that we choose Jesus for our salvation....

Now moving on to John 10:26

In John 10:9 Jesus states that HE is the door and that IF anyone enters through Him, he shall be saved.
John 10:26 says that they do not believe because they are not of His sheep.

But we have to remember that they chose not to be of Jesus' sheep.
And even today those that are not of His sheep do not believe Him..because only His sheep (us) believe Him and know His voice and follow Him.

It's like 1 Corinthians 2:4....the natural man, those that do not believe, do not accept the things of the spirit of God.

(John 3:16) and (John 10:26) do not conflict in anyway. And they say what I have been saying.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Take it or leave it as I only gave what was written in the scriptures I presented. Can you explain to me what you do not agree with?

I leave it.

I disagree with your conclusion that our resurrected body is not a body of flesh. I disagree with your conclusion that in our resurrected body we do look like ourselves.

In other words, you are not presenting a 'resurrection'.

Jesus looked like Jesus when He was resurrected. He had the scars in his 'flesh' to prove it. He could hide Who He was at will. But that doesn't mean His resurrected body was not the body He laid in the grave.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

If Jesus ascended into heaven with His human flesh and blood body then why did Mary nor His disciples recognize Him when He came to them? Even Thomas doubted it was Jesus standing before him.

Jesus could hide Who He was at will. That doesn't mean His resurrected body was not the one He laid in the grave.

It doesn't say Thomas didn't think it looked like Jesus. It just says Thomas doubted.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

You don't have to agree with me, but at least wanted to share this with you.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

(as He is, not as He was)

1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1 Cor 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Think about all those who have died before us as by now many of their dead bodies have turned to dust. We are raised a Spiritual body, not a fleshly body as we are changed in the resurrection.

It doesn't matter how many dead bodies have turned to dust, have been burned away to nothing, have been eaten by wild beasts. God is able to bring back that body and resurrect it.

I don't agree with you because you deny the resurrection, any resurrection. What you propose is not a resurrection.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

The above is in line with what I've learned.
The resurrection just means that our bodies will be given back to us....
but they will not be the same as those we have now.

Quantrill believes that Jesus ascended as a man....
Jesus ascended in His glorified body which is why some did not even recognize Him.
Also, He still had the nail signs in his hands but it did not hurt. Also in His side as Thomas wanted to
see the spear cut with his own eyes.

However, Jesus did eat. We can not pretend to understand what this glorified body will be, but we know it will
be different. (for all the reasons of the verses you posted).

Yes, I believe Jesus ascended as a Man...the God/Man.

He has the same body He laid down in the grave, though it is now glorified. That doesn't mean it isn't the same body. It is a body of flesh and bone, lacking the blood.

At the right hand of God sits a Man, Jesus Christ. He is a certain height, and weight. A Man Who is the God/Man.

Quantrill

 

[GodsGrace]

(John 3:16) and (John 10:26) do not conflict in anyway. And they say what I have been saying.

Quantrill

Quantrill,
In the post I was replying to (no. 229) you said this:

I didn't say those who believe are not His sheep. (John 3:16) says whosoever believes receives eternal life. I agree. But Jesus is clear in (John 10:26) that one must be His sheep in order to believe. In other words, one must be lost. Must have been God's possession before.

I'm sorry, I see now that I misunderstood you.
Been posting to some calvinists lately and I just thought you got the
ordo salutis backwards (like calvinists do). But I see that you meant it the right way.