What Is Baptism?

[dirtfarmer]

No, I'm saying transformation is not dependent on physical water.

I think our conscience can appeal to God without water baptism. However, it is definitely one of those things that can help understanding. I fully believe once you understand baptism, then water baptism is a joyful and desired thing. I believe that is what you see with the Ethiopian, and when Peter asked if water could be withheld from the recent recipients of the Spirit in Acts 10.

Water baptism is a real thing and was done. We don't see it as something people were convinced to do, rather it was something desired by people, even when they were not true converts.

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Does water baptism give, " even when they were not true converts", a false sense of security? There is no mistaking the baptism of the Spirit because of the change that happens at that point of time in a person's life.

 

[Nathan]

hello Nathan, dirtfarmer here

Does water baptism give, " even when they were not true converts", a false sense of security? There is no mistaking the baptism of the Spirit because of the change that happens at that point of time in a person's life.

It can for sure, and often does. Just like circumcision gave a false sense and blood line gave a false sense.

Matthew 3:7 (ESV) 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matthew 3:8 (ESV) 8 Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

Matthew 3:9 (ESV) 9 And do not presume to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father,' for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.

 

[Jim Parker]

(1) we are united to Christ in his death
(2) we are united to Christ in His resurrection
(3) we are raised to new life
(4) our "old man" (the "flesh") was crucified with Christ
(5) our "body of sin" was done away with
(6) we are no longer slaves to sin
(7) if we were baptized into Christ we have "put on" Christ

The above things you posted is when we are baptized by the Spirit.

So you don't believe Paul knew what he was talking about.
Got it

 

[Nathan]

(1) we are united to Christ in his death
(2) we are united to Christ in His resurrection
(3) we are raised to new life
(4) our "old man" (the "flesh") was crucified with Christ
(5) our "body of sin" was done away with
(6) we are no longer slaves to sin
(7) if we were baptized into Christ we have "put on" Christ

So you don't believe Paul knew what he was talking about.
Got it

If you really didn't understand the jab comment before, I would simply point you to the one you just made.

Paul is specifically talking about the baptism of the Spirit.

Galatians 3:3 (ESV)
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV)
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Titus 3:5 (ESV)
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

We did not have the list you posted above done in us by obedience of water baptism. It comes to us by the mercy of God, through the baptism of the Spirit of God - not works done by us in righteousness.

Is obedience in water baptism a righteous work? It's not an unrighteousness one.

 

[Jim Parker]

We did not have the list you posted above done in us by obedience of water baptism. It comes to us by the mercy of God, through the baptism of the Spirit of God - not works done by us in righteousness.

So you say that Paul was wrong about what baptism is about.
You know better than Him.
But, baptism is OK by you.
How nice.

OK - you've got your excuses all lined up so you don't have to believe what Paul explicitly stated.

Whatever.

Have a nice day.

 

[Nathan]

So you say that Paul was wrong about what baptism is about.
You know better than Him.
But, baptism is OK by you.
How nice.

OK - you've got your excuses all lined up so you don't have to believe what Paul explicitly stated.

Whatever.

Have a nice day.

No, I'm saying that Paul talks about baptism as a word that means immersion. We just have to understand what immersion means in its context. I believe what Paul said is true and am only expounding on it.

 

[JohnDB]

No, I'm saying that Paul talks about baptism as a word that means immersion. We just have to understand what immersion means in its context. I believe what Paul said is true and am only expounding on it.

Full immersion is not a requirement. It's a luxury only. I've been to the site where Jesus was baptised. He wasn't dunked. The only way a man could get fully immersed in that location is if he layed down and rolled around for a bit to find a spot...but likely his toes and belly/chest would still stick out. It's only just a hair above ankle deep.

The banks are sloped on the "Israel side" and rather steep on the Eastern shore. It's a great tourist place today owned by one of the few remaining kibbutz. (They may be Jewish but they still know what sells)

A Mikveh at the Temple Mount would be deeper than the Jordan...but the water moved a lot slower too. A lot of people in Early Church times would get baptized at the city well...in the city center. Again not a good idea to roll about to try to submerse yourself. And considering that someone was always necessary to baptize another...why ? What purpose does the person giving the Baptism serve? It's not like the water in any of these places is swift or deep enough to knock anyone off their feet. (Flowing water is a must for this ceremonial bath)

The reality of the day and places puts huge holes in the beliefs of those who require full immersion for Baptism.

Hey, I like full immersion Baptism. But I also know that it's a luxury and a practice that we have today that didn't exist everywhere before in the Early Church.

 

[JohnDB]

Here's a picture of the place

 

[Nathan]

Full immersion is not a requirement. It's a luxury only. I've been to the site where Jesus was baptised. He wasn't dunked. The only way a man could get fully immersed in that location is if he layed down and rolled around for a bit to find a spot...but likely his toes and belly/chest would still stick out. It's only just a hair above ankle deep.

The banks are sloped on the "Israel side" and rather steep on the Eastern shore. It's a great tourist place today owned by one of the few remaining kibbutz. (They may be Jewish but they still know what sells)

A Mikveh at the Temple Mount would be deeper than the Jordan...but the water moved a lot slower too. A lot of people in Early Church times would get baptized at the city well...in the city center. Again not a good idea to roll about to try to submerse yourself. And considering that someone was always necessary to baptize another...why ? What purpose does the person giving the Baptism serve? It's not like the water in any of these places is swift or deep enough to knock anyone off their feet. (Flowing water is a must for this ceremonial bath)

The reality of the day and places puts huge holes in the beliefs of those who require full immersion for Baptism.

Hey, I like full immersion Baptism. But I also know that it's a luxury and a practice that we have today that didn't exist everywhere before in the Early Church.

I agree, and is why I think we do not understand baptism for what it is.

You touch on a great point often overlooked as just part of the ritual. That is being 'baptized' by another person. The same reason someone is water baptized by another person is the same reason any other 'baptism' is done by someone else than the one being baptized.

This is apart of why Jesus commanded the disciples to baptize and why the Spirit baptizes.

Act 2:41
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Think about this. "About" 3000 people being baptized that day. How was this done? Interesting thought to consider. There are 1440 mins in a 24 hour period. Did a single person baptize them all? Very doubtful. In order to say that these people were all baptized in 'that day', we would have to deduct that at least 2 people would have to be baptized every min - continually - for a 24 hour period.

I only say this tongue in cheek. Obviously this is not the case. We have no idea how this took place, so anything we tried to state as fact would be strictly opinion. We do know they were all baptized, and we do know they were added to the church that same day. Kind of opens your eyes to consider what the baptism was like then.

 

[Corn Pop]

Full immersion is not a requirement. It's a luxury only. I've been to the site where Jesus was baptised. He wasn't dunked. The only way a man could get fully immersed in that location is if he layed down and rolled around for a bit to find a spot...but likely his toes and belly/chest would still stick out. It's only just a hair above ankle deep.

The banks are sloped on the "Israel side" and rather steep on the Eastern shore. It's a great tourist place today owned by one of the few remaining kibbutz. (They may be Jewish but they still know what sells)

A Mikveh at the Temple Mount would be deeper than the Jordan...but the water moved a lot slower too. A lot of people in Early Church times would get baptized at the city well...in the city center. Again not a good idea to roll about to try to submerse yourself. And considering that someone was always necessary to baptize another...why ? What purpose does the person giving the Baptism serve? It's not like the water in any of these places is swift or deep enough to knock anyone off their feet. (Flowing water is a must for this ceremonial bath)

The reality of the day and places puts huge holes in the beliefs of those who require full immersion for Baptism.

Hey, I like full immersion Baptism. But I also know that it's a luxury and a practice that we have today that didn't exist everywhere before in the Early Church.

How do you know you went to the exact spot Jesus was baptised because a tour guide told you?. How do you know he was not dunked?. How do you know 2000 years ago the river was not higher?.

Both Matthew and mark say when he was baptised he come out of the water. How can he come out of the water if he is not dunked?. Even pouring a bucket of water over his head is not 'coming out of the water'. You must at least have a head dunk to come out of the water. Unless 'coming out of the water' means he literally walked out of the river onto land. Thats the only other possible way it could be explained and could have been.

 

[Mike]

Both Matthew and mark say when he was baptised he come out of the water. How can he come out of the water if he is not dunked?

Good point!

How do you know you went to the exact spot Jesus was baptised because a tour guide told you?

Also, is there a chance that the water level could have changed in 2000 years? Rising tide, build up of sediment on the bed, etc.

I'm not in the "full immersion only" camp, BTW. Just asking.

 

[Nathan]

Good point!


Also, is there a chance that the water level could have changed in 2000 years? Rising tide, build up of sediment on the bed, etc.

I'm not in the "full immersion only" camp, BTW. Just asking.

I think it just means He was in the water, however deep, then came out of it onto dry land.

My mind thinks about marriage ceremonies. There are so many different ways a couple expresses their union together. If one couple does it one way, and one another, is only one couple really married?

What if a couple never had a ceremony. Does that mean they cannot be married?

 

[JohnDB]

How do you know you went to the exact spot Jesus was baptised because a tour guide told you?. How do you know he was not dunked?. How do you know 2000 years ago the river was not higher?.

Both Matthew and mark say when he was baptised he come out of the water. How can he come out of the water if he is not dunked?. Even pouring a bucket of water over his head is not 'coming out of the water'. You must at least have a head dunk to come out of the water. Unless 'coming out of the water' means he literally walked out of the river onto land. Thats the only other possible way it could be explained and could have been.

I had no tour guide.
There's plenty of scriptural support for the location.
And like I stated before...the Western bank of the river is much more sloped than the Eastern shore. But that doesn't mean that it is exactly a cake walk either to climb out of the river bed.
The river has a flooding period every year. Especially since 1948. (Average Rainfall in Israel has increased 10-11 inches )
If the river is in flood stage, as is prone every year, there is no Baptism possible. The water is way too deep.

It's one of those "all or nothing" things. Because the river is fed by three springs and not rain run off normally. This is Israel...it's in a desert. It's not America or Australia or New Zealand or Europe.
The place is unique.

 

[JLB]

Full immersion is not a requirement. It's a luxury only. I've been to the site where Jesus was baptised. He wasn't dunked. The only way a man could get fully immersed in that location is if he layed down and rolled around for a bit to find a spot...but likely his toes and belly/chest would still stick out. It's only just a hair above ankle deep.

You might have been to a tourist attraction that claimed it was where Jesus was baptised, but that doesn't necessarily mean that was the spot.

• 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. Matthew 3:16

• 9 It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. 11 Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Mark 1:9-11

That is how Biblical Baptism was done, going down into the water, and thus coming up from the water.

• 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus. And passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesarea. Acts 8:38-40

The old testament foreshadowing of Baptism:

• Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-3

22 So the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea on the dry ground, and the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left. 23 And the Egyptians pursued and went after them into the midst of the sea, all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.24 Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the Lord looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians. 25 And He took off their chariot wheels, so that they drove them with difficulty; and the Egyptians said, “Let us flee from the face of Israel, for the Lord fights for them against the Egyptians.”
26 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand over the sea, that the waters may come back upon the Egyptians, on their chariots, and on their horsemen.” Exodus 14:22-26


The sea was deep enough to drown an entire army.


It wasn't ankle deep.


Going down into the water and coming up out of the water is a clear indication of this simple truth.



JLB

 

[JohnDB]

You might have been to a tourist attraction that claimed it was where Jesus was baptised, but that doesn't necessarily mean that was the spot.

• 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. Matthew 3:16

• 9 It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. 11 Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Mark 1:9-11

That is how Biblical Baptism was done, going down into the water, and thus coming up from the water.

• 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip was found at Azotus. And passing through, he preached in all the cities till he came to Caesarea. Acts 8:38-40

The old testament foreshadowing of Baptism:

• Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-3

22 So the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea on the dry ground, and the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left. 23 And the Egyptians pursued and went after them into the midst of the sea, all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.24 Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the Lord looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians. 25 And He took off their chariot wheels, so that they drove them with difficulty; and the Egyptians said, “Let us flee from the face of Israel, for the Lord fights for them against the Egyptians.”
26 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand over the sea, that the waters may come back upon the Egyptians, on their chariots, and on their horsemen.” Exodus 14:22-26


The sea was deep enough to drown an entire army.


It wasn't ankle deep.


Going down into the water and coming up out of the water is a clear indication of this simple truth.



JLB

That's a whole nother thread as to why the Israelites didn't touch the water... AND another body of water that Egyptians drown in (Red/Reed Sea).

 

[MarkT]

What exactly is baptism?

Acts 2:38 tells us it's for the forgiveness of sins.
But we know that our faith in Jesus is our salvation and that God forgives sins.

There are 3 baptisms in the New Testament:

1. The baptism of the spirit --- which is conversion. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

2. Water baptism --- Is there a difference between John's baptism and water baptism Jesus spoke of in Mathew 28:19?

3. The baptism of fire --- Acts 1:8 and Acts 2:3-4. Are these two the same type of baptism?
If not, how is each one explained?

How can we explain the 3 different types of baptism?

And, Dirtfarmer said this.

As I understand, when Christ was crucified on the cross, the sin of the world was paid for by his blood( life is in the blood). It is the sin of unbelief that consigns and condemns a person to the lake of fire. Baptism for the remission of sin is a "kingdom" thing, not a "heir" thing. It was John that preached "baptism for repentance of sin". Paul, the apostle, preached that we are cleansed by the blood of Christ that was shed on the cross. Paul also preached the believer is dead with Christ in his crucifixion but made alive by the life of the risen savior. In the gospel of the kingdom there is nothing about the crucifixion, burial, or resurrection.

Of course there was nothing about the death, burial or resurrection of Jesus when He preached the Kingdom because it had not happened yet.

So does baptism go from being a "kingdom thing" to being an "heir thing"?
The difference?

So, we have:

1. What is baptism?
2. The three different types of baptism.
3. Baptism in the Kingdom vs. baptism of inheritance.

Take your pick.

Baptism is an initiation. John initiated with water. Jesus initiated with the Holy Spirit and fire. Jesus initiated the way into the kingdom.

 

[Jim Parker]

I believe what Paul said is true and am only expounding on it.

No. You're not.

 

[Nathan]

No. You're not.

I just chuckled a little. I feel like this is middle school and I just got called out at recess.

 

[Jim Parker]

Think about this. "About" 3000 people being baptized that day. How was this done? Interesting thought to consider. There are 1440 mins in a 24 hour period. Did a single person baptize them all? Very doubtful. In order to say that these people were all baptized in 'that day', we would have to deduct that at least 2 people would have to be baptized every min - continually - for a 24 hour period.

That is an argument from silence.
There were 120 people available for baptism.
And it is not necessary that they all be baptized that same day.

Once again, you are making excuses to avoid the teaching of baptism.

Aquaphobia?

 

[Nathan]

That is an argument from silence.
There were 120 people available for baptism.
And it is not necessary that they all be baptized that same day.

Once again, you are making excuses to avoid the teaching of baptism.

Aquaphobia?

Quite the opposite. I would like to bring out into the light that which has been hidden in darkness.

Sometimes the light seems blinding.