What is Biblical Faith?

[Panin]

[quote="Cornelius
You do realize that faith does not come by seeing ? It comes by hearing and that "hearing" comes through the Word of God. Some can hear the Word without ever "hearing". That is why the Bible teaches Act 28:26 saying, Go thou unto this people, and say, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall in no wise understand; And seeing ye shall see, and shall in no wise perceive:

Faith in Christ comes by hearing the word of God. Thats what this is referring to, its not takling about faith to be able to walk on water.

I checked out the links. I wouldnt call these videos reliable evidence at all brother.

Sorry a woman being healed of a speech impediment? This video is not proof of that.

Also the other lady being healed of the skin condition, there is no time frame given, just alledged before after shots. What went on, on the stage was rather bizzar to say the least. Hardly evidence of a miracle.

 

[Cornelius]

No brother .....FAITH comes by hearing and ,.................hearing by the Word of God.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I told you , you would not believe even if you saw it happen. You did not even mention the dead guy they raised from the dead. Again, there were doctors from my country present when it happened. The guy they found in the dumpster, was totally healed within three days. I saw the whole DVD and there are plenty miracles happening on it.

C

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

geo thanks for the link!

panin i wrote what i wrote to you because of your statement on miracles. i guess i didnt get what you meant but given your other posts i still think it applies.

Peoples faith can be built by by hearing the word of God coupled with testimonies of other people. Some people get saved just hearing the gospel with the testimony of beleivers given at what God has done for them.

here is my question:Should we believe the word of the saints and their testimonies? It is very sad to me that other christians can so easily call other the brethern liars when they glorify God with their testimonies.Now we may say to ourselves " i didnt call them a liar" but if we hear their testimony and disbelieve them in our hearts- then on top of that speak that to others to put disbelief in their hearts we are really calling them liars.We overcome by the blood of Jesus and the word of our testimony but yet the brethern arent believeing each other?Our testimony is stronger to satan than to our brother in Christ? whaaaa?

(and no one is talking about believing benny hinn, we are talking about believing the witnesses of faithful people who love the Lord)

Also setting up the idea that we need to SHOW proof(usually scientific or medical) of these things is in no way a biblical standard but a worldly one. The word of a believer who speaks as the oracles of God and gives glory to God in testimonies of His love and power and who is not making money on it, should be stronger to us than them having physical proof that the world would consider proof.- Some of us do not even go to the world for help, so how and why would we have a doctors proof? And above C gave testimony where doctors where there and still that wasnt counted as proof.We should be making sure that our ways are biblical. The whole bible is testimonies of saints and what God did in their lives,- we are not any differnt- we are living epistles- living testimonies of the greatness of God.



glorydayz
I understand that what you have spoken is the belief of many but where do i find that in scriptures? WHere do i find that God no longer raises the dead and doesnt want to?Where do i find that this was dont just for that period of time? It is dangerous for us to say that God does not do something that He says He does, and to say that it is no longer His will to do something that He has been known to do when we do not have scripture to back up that idea. We cannot simply say ' well we dont see it today that means it stopped then"Because what ahppens is that other faithful believers DO see it happen today and then they are not believed because the others have decided it cant happen today. This is what I see in regards to this issue in scripture.

Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

First they were told to preach the gospel and raise the dead (etc) then they were told to go into all the world and teach those who believe to do ALL THINGS whatsoever he has commanded them to do.

Even in abrahams day, He accounted God able and willing to raise the dead if need be. Much later elijah and elisha raised the dead in a time when others werent seeing that done. Then Jesus and the apostles did so. In the hall of faith we have testimony that women recieved their dead raised.- If throughout all time, God has seen fit to raise from the dead people when it was not happening always and everywhere how can we say that it is not for today if we dont have a verse(s) that tells us it wont and cant?

 

[DarcyLu]

The answer is that we only can manifest that what we believe. I believe I have the faith of Christ, but at this moment in my maturity (or lack of it) I can only believe that to a point. I see in my life, that I still lack much. But this does not stop me from pursuing that which God says I have. So I use the faith that God gave me in the beginning (a measure of faith) and with that I KEEP ON PRAYING. I keep praying that God Himself must help me to come to this place in faith, which I see in the Word.

when we do see it as the "faith of Jesus" it makes it easier to believe as we can see what Jesus did (and is still doing) and know He can do the same through us. in addition, seeing it as the faith of Jesus, for me, puts it off of me and onto Him and His faith as we can not have the faith w/out Him anyway as He is the one who gives faith to us, so it seems it is nothing with us, although in obedience we continue to pray God will grow our faith and as we mature He is able to work more and more through us as we conform to His image.
another possible hindrance (outside of unbelief) is our striving in the flesh and not allowing our flesh to die and He to increase, and i only speak from experience lol, when we are striving, it is with Him, how effective are we when we are fighting against Him? this is why it is so important, imo, to pray for a renewing of our minds and seeking also the mind of Christ.

The Christian walk IS a walk in the miraculous.

Amen!

 

[DarcyLu]

Even in abrahams day, He accounted God able and willing to raise the dead if need be. Much later elijah and elisha raised the dead in a time when others werent seeing that done. Then Jesus and the apostles did so. In the hall of faith we have testimony that women recieved their dead raised.- If throughout all time, God has seen fit to raise from the dead people when it was not happening always and everywhere how can we say that it is not for today if we dont have a verse(s) that tells us it wont and cant?

well said GPR!
even outside of raising the dead, when Jesus said we could do what He did and more, what other conclusion can we come to, than exactly what Jesus said?

 

[glorydaz]

here is my question:Should we believe the word of the saints and their testimonies? It is very sad to me that other christians can so easily call other the brethern liars when they glorify God with their testimonies.Now we may say to ourselves " i didnt call them a liar" but if we hear their testimony and disbelieve them in our hearts- then on top of that speak that to others to put disbelief in their hearts we are really calling them liars.We overcome by the blood of Jesus and the word of our testimony but yet the brethern arent believeing each other?Our testimony is stronger to satan than to our brother in Christ? whaaaa?

glorydayz
I understand that what you have spoken is the belief of many but where do i find that in scriptures? WHere do i find that God no longer raises the dead and doesnt want to?Where do i find that this was dont just for that period of time? It is dangerous for us to say that God does not do something that He says He does, and to say that it is no longer His will to do something that He has been known to do when we do not have scripture to back up that idea. We cannot simply say ' well we dont see it today that means it stopped then"Because what ahppens is that other faithful believers DO see it happen today and then they are not believed because the others have decided it cant happen today. This is what I see in regards to this issue in scripture.

Whenever God has allowed miracles that suspend his natural law there has been a purpose. It's always a revelation of God's power. When the purpose was fulfilled, the miracle was no longer needed. We see Creation, the Flood, the Virgin birth, the resurrection of Christ. Once the purpose was acomplished the miracle was not repeated. When Jesus came, the Son of God was being revealed.

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

We no longer see God creating or flooding the earth or parting the sea. We no longer see virgins giving birth (apart from medical science) which are not miracles of God. We no longer see resurrections from the dead...the general resurrection will come when Christ comes again. We no longer see prophets predicting the future....oh, there are plenty of prophets alright, but the test is always 100% accuracy. God's supernatural miracles NEVER fail. God answers prayer, but they stay within His natural law. Now we have the perfect revelation of God...His Word. We can read about the miracles performed, and we believe them by faith.

The mission of the church was to spread the Gospel...signs followed them to confirm the word. Now we have the written word to confirm what Jesus did.

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

That which is perfect is the Word of God. The Word reveals God to man...our faith comes by hearing the Word.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

There are many false prophets and false miracle workers....we certainly shouldn't be expected to believe something we don't see supported by the Word of God...no matter who tells us. I had a gal tell me once the Lord had given her a gold filling. My response is...if God wanted you to have a new tooth, he'd have given you one....not just a gold filling. God answers prayer, but He stays within the natural laws He set up. I know many people won't like my saying that, but that's what I see from the Word.

 

[Panin]

="GodspromisesRyes"]

Peoples faith can be built by by hearing the word of God coupled with testimonies of other people. Some people get saved just hearing the gospel with the testimony of beleivers given at what God has done for them.

Salavation is through faith in Christ, through hearing the word of God, not through personal testimony and or the witnessing of miracles. Even the testimony of an Angel can not lead a man to Christ. Angels do not even have the privaledge of leading a man to Christ. Of course another persons testimony can open the door to an oppotunity to share the gospel (the word of God), but the testimony is not what saves. You may find me a little pedantic on this point, but we must be clear on this.

Many people witnessed the miracles of Christ first hand and did not receive salvation, even deciples who walked with him for years.

here is my question:Should we believe the word of the saints and their testimonies?

Biblical saints we read of in scripture, is obviously in the word of God, and yes we believe it only because of its power to convert and because we know it is true.

Should we believe a travelling man who comes to us telling of us stories of miracles in a far off distant land? Thats up to you, but I don't put my faith in any stories like this.

It is very sad to me that other christians can so easily call other the brethern liars when they glorify God with their testimonies Now we may say to ourselves " i didnt call them a liar" but if we hear their testimony and disbelieve them in our hearts- then on top of that speak that to others to put disbelief in their hearts we are really calling them liars.We overcome by the blood of Jesus and the word of our testimony but yet the brethern arent believeing each other?Our testimony is stronger to satan than to our brother in Christ? whaaaa?

We are not expected or required to believe anything that is outside of the word of God any more than we are expected to believe every word out of the mouth of our pastors. Your point is not really a valid point at all. In fact we are intsructed to test and examine the spirit and fruits of men. This does not mean we accuse an individual of lieing.

(and no one is talking about believing benny hinn, we are talking about believing the witnesses of faithful people who love the Lord)

Well you contradict yourself there brother.

Also setting up the idea that we need to SHOW proof(usually scientific or medical) of these things is in no way a biblical standard but a worldly one. The word of a believer who speaks as the oracles of God and gives glory to God in testimonies of His love and power and who is not making money on it, should be stronger to us than them having physical proof that the world would consider proof.

-

If what you say is corrrect here, then you are opening the door wide open for the benny Hinns of this word to rape and pilage. We rely on the word of God - end of story, not fresh revelations of someone speaking the oracles of God, Does this mean we can not be edified and encouraged by what God is doing in the lives of our brothers and sisters, off course not.

Some of us do not even go to the world for help, so how and why would we have a doctors proof? And above C gave testimony where doctors where there and still that wasnt counted as proof.We should be making sure that our ways are biblical.

Exactly. Im not sure why you are so opposed to what I am saying, What exactly it it that I have said that irks you so?

The whole bible is testimonies of saints and what God did in their lives,- we are not any differnt- we are living epistles- living testimonies of the greatness of God.

[/quote]

The bible is also full of instances where God dealt differntly with men than in the way he is dealing with us now. Many Christians today think they can and do have the powers that the appostles had during the beginning of the church age. We are told in scripture these things will come to an end, and they have come to an end. And yet there are people standing up in churches around the word claiming they have the gift of prophesy and are delivering "fresh words" form the Lord, usually regurgitated scripture if your lucky ? Frankly, Im so glad I don't have to put up with that any more on Sunday morning any more. Been there - done that!

PS. I put it it to you that if God was going to pull of a miracle in Cornelius's church, he would not have required the assitance of two doctors. Did God use the education of Doctors to resusitate this person? Possibly. Ungodly men are being saved in hospitals every day with the miracle of modern day medicine, remember that. I dont hear of Christians who claim to have the gift of healing going into hospitals and raising the dead and healing the sick though.

A bit of balance and descernment is required, other wise there is a risk of getting caught up in hype and going to seed on something, and the next thing you'll be doing is rolling around in the isles at church laughing like a lunatic thinking that it's a fresh falling of the fire of the spirit.

And a final word of warning. Satan will deceive the whole world when he weilds his abilty and power to perfrom miracles.

 

[Panin]

No brother .....FAITH comes by hearing and ,.................hearing by the Word of God.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I told you , you would not believe even if you saw it happen. You did not even mention the dead guy they raised from the dead. Again, there were doctors from my country present when it happened. The guy they found in the dumpster, was totally healed within three days. I saw the whole DVD and there are plenty miracles happening on it.

C

No brother faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of God. IE hearing the words of God preached.

It looks to me that you are twisting this to mean; our hearing is attributed to the word of God. IE we are deaf until we hear the word of God? Which is an oxymoron becuase if we are physically deaf we cant hear anything. This scripture doesnt say that or mean that.

It is only the spirit of God that works through and by hearing the word of God. It is the Holy SPirit that convinces us. quickens us and convicts us of it's truth. This requires a lot more than our ears hearing words.

Sorry I didn't see one about the man being raised from the dead. I will have another look.

Okay, I had a another look. A I cant understand the languge B. The picture quality is poor and very small. C, there is no proof on God's green earth whether or not he was dead in the first place. In the church he stared straight into the camera. He wasn't dead then. Also who takes a dead body and then tucks it into bed?

Bro, if you want to be blessed and encourage by those videos thats great. I dont wish to take that away from you. But don't expect me to take them as evidence because as they stand they are not irrefuteable. Don't condemn and judge me on my opinion of those videos please. Other wise you will begin to lack credibilty in my opinion.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

glorydaz and panin, sorry scriptures does not teach what either of you is saying. The bible does not at all say these things have ended or that there is a purpose for them to end yet. That is a lie that steals the kingdom of God and His power away from saints who are given His power and authority to walk in to deliver bring his salvation and confirm the word spoken.

It is very sad the things that get taught these days to Gods people truly having a form of godliness by denying the power thereof.

I just do not know what can be given to people to help this understanding and faith be renewed.

 

[Panin]

glorydaz and panin, sorry scriptures does not teach what either of you is saying. The bible does not at all say these things have ended or that there is a purpose for them to end yet. That is a lie that steals the kingdom of God and His power away from saints who are given His power and authority to walk in to deliver bring his salvation and confirm the word spoken.

It is very sad the things that get taught these days to Gods people truly having a form of godliness by denying the power thereof.

I just do not know what can be given to people to help this understanding and faith be renewed.

Dont worry about us, we have been given the word of God. I have several copies. I read and study them daily, have done for decades, I know what it says and what it means. I have also been where you are now. Hoping and striving and feeling dissapointed that I am some how lacking the supernatural experiences and abilities of the apostles when the spirit came up on them as fire.

Do you see fire above your head when you look in the mirror?

If you want to continue on what the bible has to say, Im keen to continue but to accuse us of lieing and saying what we are saying is againts the bible is unacceptable and I will report it if you do it again.





God bless you.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Dont worry about us, we have been given the word of God. I have several copies. I read and study them daily, have done for decades, I know what it says and what it means. I have also been where you are now. Hoping and striving and feeling dissapointed that I am some how lacking the supernatural experiences and abilities of the apostles when the spirit came up on them as fire.

Do you see fire above your head when you look in the mirror?

If you want to continue on what the bible has to say, Im keen to continue but to accuse us of lieing and saying what we are saying is againts the bible is unacceptable and I will report it if you do it again.

God bless you.

panin, you said "The bible is also full of instances where God dealt differntly with men than in the way he is dealing with us now. Many Christians today think they can and do have the powers that the appostles had during the beginning of the church age. We are told in scripture these things will come to an end, and they have come to an end."
Scripturally that is not true. The bible does not say that they have come to an end.- you interpret it to say that but that is not what it says. WHat it does say is that " when that which is perfect is come" then that which is in part will be done away- NOW we see through a glass darkly but THEN(when that which is perfect is come) we shall see face to face.

I am sorry that you had a hard time and felt lacking before.But because the enemy used these things against you does not mean that they are vanished away.- Now it is funny to me that you can say that we do not tell the truth and you disbelieve our testimony but when i believe you have not spoken according to the word you want to report me? I did not say to you " you are lying" but the bible just doesnt say " it has ended" as you say.

 

[Panin]

panin, you said "The bible is also full of instances where God dealt differntly with men than in the way he is dealing with us now. Many Christians today think they can and do have the powers that the appostles had during the beginning of the church age. We are told in scripture these things will come to an end, and they have come to an end."

Scripturally that is not true. The bible does not say that they have come to an end.- you interpret it to say that but that is not what it says. WHat it does say is that " when that which is perfect is come" then that which is in part will be done away- NOW we see through a glass darkly but THEN(when that which is perfect is come) we shall see face to face.

That which is perfect is the completed canon of scripture, IE the finished bible, at that time they new in part, now we know and have all of God's prophecy. It doesnt mean. Christ and coudln't mean Christ, because He had already been. Not only that they also had the Holy Spirit given to them aswell.

I am sorry that you had a hard time and felt lacking before.But because the enemy used these things against you does not mean that they are vanished away.- y.

No need to be sorry. The enemy did nothing of the sort, the enemy blinds men to the truth of Gods word.The enemy is teaching men to expect to do these things day. And I include speaking in tongues and prophesying here aswell. None of this is for today.

Now it is funny to me that you can say that we do not tell the truth and you disbelieve our testimony but when i believe you have not spoken according to the word you want to report me? I did not say to you " you are lying" but the bible just doesnt say " it has ended" as you sa

[/quote]

Your a twister mate and Im sick of it already. I didnt say that at all, you inferred that me and Glory are liars. Its been reported.

 

[Panin]

glorydaz and panin, sorry scriptures does not teach what either of you is saying. The bible does not at all say these things have ended or that there is a purpose for them to end yet. That is a lie that steals the kingdom of God and His power away from saints who are given His power and authority to walk in to deliver bring his salvation and confirm the word spoken.

It is very sad the things that get taught these days to Gods people truly having a form of godliness by denying the power thereof.
I just do not know what can be given to people to help this understanding and faith be renewed.

Not only did you accuse me of lieing, you followed it up with the implication that I have a form of godliness but am denying Gods power.

I think you seasoned hands at forum debating are great at sailing as close to the wind as possible to avoid breaking the rules. You infer your accusations so as to avoid direct rebuke.

 

[Rick W]

Thread locked until I see if it's worth cleaning out this confrontation. If I decide to sit here and take the time to clean out this mess then the thread will be reopened.
"Address the topic and not the person" is in our Terms of Service for a reason.
I like to come here and post just as much as everyone else but it seems that small luxury is denied me because some people can't discuss a topic in a civil manner.