What is "REAL GRACE" ?

[Mitspa]

Wanna bet?



Do you think that James is saying a person is made righteous by what he does?


And, please, if this is really just another water baptism thread let us know now.

This is about "grace" and "wanna bet" dont sound like you may yet understand?
How about you answer my question? are there two kinds of grace? or does saving grace also empower those you believe?

2Ti 3:1


This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2

For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3

Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4

Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

2Ti 3:5

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Again does "grace" not only save, but empower us ? according to the scriptures?

 

[Butch5]

So here is "Butch" talking about "context" again?:
:toofunny

Read the post before and after! just like the scriptures!

In most of your posts, your'e pulling sinlge passages of Scripture from all over, what does that prove?

 

[stovebolts]

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14 (KJV)


The law did not touch the heart, but under penalties prohibited wrong and excited the rebellious spirit. You are not under this law of works, but under the grace that touches the heart, excites love, and leads to obedience to the law of faith without exciting the rebellious spirit—a faith that works through love. Gospel Advocate

Wow, where did you come up with that about the law? Read any of the psalms lately?

God is the same God of the old covenant as he is the new covenant and grace is as abundent in the ot as it is the nt. The only thing that has changed is the covenant is written on our hearts, not tablets of stone. Paul speaks of his born again struggles in romans... you know I do what I don't want to do and don't do what I want to do... and yet it is written on his heart.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I agree with all these post! But if we have grace does it produce a fruit?

Grace only produces fruit if we, as the branch, allow the vine to nurture us, feed us, cause us to grow healthy and strong and become productive fruit-bearers. This is precisely what Jesus was speaking of in the early part of John 15. In v. 2, when He speaks (as in most translations) of the unfruitful vines being "taken away," it is actually a poor translation initiated in the KJV and inexplicably perpetuated in other translations. The Greek word is airo and its primary meaning is "lifted up" or "elevated."

If you ever visit a vineyard immediately after a thunderstorm, you will see the vinedresser walking around with a bucket of soapy water and a soft brush. He checks the vines for branches that have been beaten down by the storm and left in the mud. Gently he lifts them up, washes them off and ties them back into the trellis with string so they can grow healthy and produce fruit. It is the illustration Christ was making for how He lifts us up from trial and tribulation and restores us to productivity.

and what was Paul and James saying?

Paul was speaking of faith enacted vertically, between God and man. It is how we grow, are sanctified and become productive fruit-bearers. James wrote of faith enacted horizontally, as the sanctification process goes on, what we learn from Christ and how we translate it into actionable faith that touches lives and hearts.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How about you answer my question? are there two kinds of grace?

I did answer it. Did you miss it?

Again does "grace" not only save, but empower us ? according to the scriptures?

There is the grace of salvation, and there is the grace of a spiritual gift. Everyone who has received the grace of salvation has also received some measure of grace in regard to a gift. But the measure of grace that one receives in their gifting varies one person to another just as the gifts themselves vary.

And no one is justified by walking in a gift. A person is justified (shown to be righteous) by the fruit of love. We know who has received the love of God in salvation because they give the love of God they themselves have received out to others. It is in that way that a person is 'justified' (shown to be righteous) by what they do.

 

[Mitspa]

Grace only produces fruit if we, as the branch, allow the vine to nurture us, feed us, cause us to grow healthy and strong and become productive fruit-bearers. This is precisely what Jesus was speaking of in the early part of John 15. In v. 2, when He speaks (as in most translations) of the unfruitful vines being "taken away," it is actually a poor translation initiated in the KJV and inexplicably perpetuated in other translations. The Greek word is airo and its primary meaning is "lifted up" or "elevated."

If you ever visit a vineyard immediately after a thunderstorm, you will see the vinedresser walking around with a bucket of soapy water and a soft brush. He checks the vines for branches that have been beaten down by the storm and left in the mud. Gently he lifts them up, washes them off and ties them back into the trellis with string so they can grow healthy and produce fruit. It is the illustration Christ was making for how He lifts us up from trial and tribulation and restores us to productivity.Paul was speaking of faith enacted vertically, between God and man. It is how we grow, are sanctified and become productive fruit-bearers. James wrote of faith enacted horizontally, as the sanctification process goes on, what we learn from Christ and how we translate it into actionable faith that touches lives and hearts.

i must say! you seem to have been taught of the Lord! Now do you see the" saving grace" that is often spoke of as something different from say the grace of the gifts? is it the same? and should one who has the first, see the second as something optional? of even different?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Grace only produces fruit if we, as the branch, allow the vine to nurture us, feed us, cause us to grow healthy and strong and become productive fruit-bearers. This is precisely what Jesus was speaking of in the early part of John 15. In v. 2, when He speaks (as in most translations) of the unfruitful vines being "taken away," it is actually a poor translation initiated in the KJV and inexplicably perpetuated in other translations. The Greek word is airo and its primary meaning is "lifted up" or "elevated."

If you ever visit a vineyard immediately after a thunderstorm, you will see the vinedresser walking around with a bucket of soapy water and a soft brush. He checks the vines for branches that have been beaten down by the storm and left in the mud. Gently he lifts them up, washes them off and ties them back into the trellis with string so they can grow healthy and produce fruit. It is the illustration Christ was making for how He lifts us up from trial and tribulation and restores us to productivity.

Aren't the branches that don't produce fruit the ones that are thrown into the fire? It's the fruitful branches that are pruned and cared for, not the unfruitful ones. Am I right?

 

[Mitspa]

In most of your posts, your'e pulling sinlge passages of Scripture from all over, what does that prove?

well there is a "biblical principal" that every word be established by two or three witnesses. its always best to use at least two scriptures or more to make a true biblical point! kinda protects the word from false" context" teachers.

 

[reba]

Aren't the branches that don't produce fruit the ones that are thrown into the fire? It's the fruitful branches that are pruned and cared for, not the unfruitful ones. Am I right?

That avatar produces NO fruit :toofunny

 

[Mitspa]

I did answer it. Did you miss it?



There is the grace of salvation, and there is the grace of a spiritual gift. Everyone who has received the grace of salvation has also received some measure of grace in regard to a gift. But the measure of grace that one receives in their gifting varies one person to another just as the gifts themselves vary.

And no one is justified by walking in a gift. A person is justified (shown to be righteous) by the fruit of love. We know who has received the love of God in salvation because they give the love of God they themselves have received out to others. It is in that way that a person is 'justified' (shown to be righteous) by what they do.

i agree with your point to a "large degree". i am trying to understand how so many seem to speak of the "grace" of God yet see no conflict that they have none of what grace gives? James was clearly speaking of love and faith. that produced action. I am trying to understand how "grace" has been divided into a doctrine that leaves the Church without the power that grace provides.
Again Paul included all that he did as "grace". He did not seperate the doctrine from the "Spirit of Grace". do you see my point?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That avatar produces NO fruit :toofunny

No it doesn't...but you gotta admit it's pretty fruity.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am trying to understand how "grace" has been divided into a doctrine that leaves the Church without the power that grace provides.

Well, that's what has happened in the 'church of the world'.

I personally think it's a waste of time to even talk to them.

Again Paul included all that he did as "grace". He did not seperate the doctrine from the "Spirit of Grace". do you see my point?

I see your point.

Peter encourages those who have received the grace of salvation (the church) to walk in the grace of their gift, whether that be speaking or serving. It's a legitimate message to the true church of God. It's a waste of breath to the 'church of the world', IMO.

I'm done with the 'church of the world' and the sooner the true church of God comes completely out of it the better. I don't think the true church of God has too much of a problem with being encouraged to walk in the grace of their gifting. The church of the world doesn't even have the grace of salvation that they should have a gift to walk in anyway.

 

[Danus]

No it doesn't...but you gotta admit it's pretty fruity.

I love that new avatar!

 

[Butch5]

well there is a "biblical principal" that every word be established by two or three witnesses. its always best to use at least two scriptures or more to make a true biblical point! kinda protects the word from false" context" teachers.

Pulling two or three verses of Scripture from "Their" context to prove "Your" point is not making a true Biblical point.

 

[Mitspa]

Well, that's what has happened in the 'church of the world'.

I personally think it's a waste of time to even talk to them.



I see your point.

Peter encourages those who have received the grace of salvation (the church) to walk in the grace of their gift, whether that be speaking or serving. It's a legitimate message to the true church of God. It's a waste of breath to the 'church of the world', IMO.

I'm done with the 'church of the world' and the sooner the true church of God comes completely out of it the better. I don't think the true church of God has too much of a problem with being encouraged to walk in the grace of their gifting. The church of the world doesn't even have the grace of salvation that they should have a gift to walk in anyway.

You may be right? i hope your are wrong? i had the thought, that things such as gifts and other "graces" have been made into a work? That God gives these things to just a few "holy" types? Which is of course, the greatest of satans tricks! The other seems to be that so many" nuts and flakes " make these gifts seem without purpose and strange?

Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

 

[Mitspa]

Yes.

Some people receive more 'grace' in regard to a gift and the faith to walk in it than others. But all have the grace of salvation equally and without difference.



Eventually, yes, but it's not always so clear. Many people get deceived by charismatic, seemingly spiritually gifted people who turn out to be complete frauds. Gifts, and ministry works are simply NOT the way to discern the grace of salvation in a person. The fruit of the Spirit is.

"Charismatic" has been made into many things i do not agree with. I call much of it "nuts and flakes" but we do not reject scripture because of the error of some.
"True Grace " has real power, not just doctrines and words!
The fact, that some who seem so messed up, has a gift from God? That is what "grace" is! something none of us deserve! If you are trying to earn it? That may be why you dont have it? By the way consider the word "Charis-matic".
1Co 3:10



According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1Co 3:11





For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Many claim to be builders, and attempt to lay upon the foundations
of Christ.
Grace is from heaven and those that have it, labor by it , and will not attempt to build apart from its working power.

"Grace" is not just about being set free from the Law of sin and death.
"Grace" is being bound to "perfect law of liberty" being set free from the flesh by the word of God!
Living a life of victory! That brings Glory to Gods "grace"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I love that new avatar!

It's not new. I had a half blind, eighty year old woman fix my old one.

(...under the careful guidance of Rowan Atkinson, her inspiration.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

By the way consider the word "Charis-matic".

I'm familiar with that. I cut my spiritual teeth in charismatic, Full Gospel circles. For which I am forever grateful...despite the movement becoming so absurdly corrupted and the laughing stock of the church. Maybe God will raise somebody up to bring it back to the pure truths it has been privileged to see in scripture but have corrupted so horribly.

According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1Co 3:11

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Many claim to be builders, and attempt to lay upon the foundations
of Christ.[/SIZE]

And, sadly, build buildings that will not survive the fires of the judgment to come--houses made of wood, hay, and stubble, not precious jewels.

 

[Mitspa]

I'm familiar with that. I cut my spiritual teeth in charismatic, Full Gospel circles. For which I am forever grateful...despite the movement becoming so absurdly corrupted and the laughing stock of the church. Maybe God will raise somebody up to bring it back to the pure truths it has been privileged to see in scripture but have corrupted so horribly.



And, sadly, build buildings that will not survive the fires of the judgment to come--houses made of wood, hay, and stubble, not precious jewels.

It sounds as if you and i agree on many things? I dont think God is raising just one,but many! May we be found in Him and in His "True Grace"!

 

[Mitspa]

Jud 1:4


For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

"True Grace" is the power of God over the flesh and the ruler of this world. Its the atomic bomb in Gods weapons against satan.
For true grace abounds and increases for those who have it! "To him who has more will be given".

"False grace" is like a "smoke screen" that always allows the enemy to escape. It seeks to find doctrine to make the "flesh" acceptable and the "powerless church "an approved policy.