What is the point of the New Testament?

[RLKIII]

Hello

Before I post my question I’d like to give a little background on myself. Despite my mother considering becoming a nun in her youth and my father leaving his seminary studies after a short time, I was raised with no pressure to adhere to any religion. We never read the Bible in my childhood and never once was I quoted scripture by either of my parents.

As a youth I had questions, as most of us do, and I sought those answers through the church. We had several churches of varying denominations nearby and I first attended Sunday School in a small Presbyterian church and I enjoyed it. The stories, the laughter, the ‘Jesus loves all of you’ mentality. It was great! Then I reached the age where I started sitting in adult sermons. I was instantly confused as the message shifted from Jesus loves to… something else. I couldn’t quite put my finger on it but I no longer had that good feeling. After a while I left the church and went to a Baptist church, not really knowing what to expect, but looking for something different. This church was… different. It had its own television studio. Every service was loud and energetic, but negative. The Pastor touched on a few letters from Paul, the Corinthians, etc. but was rife with political activism and strong pro-conservative vibes (even if I was still too young to understand these terms then, the sentiment was felt hard.)

I remember I was about fifteen or so when I approached the pastor and asked why he wasn’t teaching the parables or the Sermon on the Mount or any of Jesus’ teachings. I further stated that it did not make sense that any religious leader of worshipper who had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior refused to follow His teachings – how could they call themselves a Christian?

I was asked to leave and find another church.

I spent the next few decades pondering this and looking in to a variety of books and sources but nothing ever actually answered that question. No, at 52, I am an atheist. Or, more accurately, a non-theist. I do not hate God or religion. I am not against religion in any way. I fully believe that religion is a place which allows people from a wide variety of backgrounds to come together in a sense of togetherness and family. Who could hate that??

What I hate is any PERSON who abuses the foundation of religion for their personal gains; to gain power, to gain wealth, to be idolized and worshipped as they would worship God. More, I hate anyone who spews hatred and bigotry as outlined in the Old Testament.

Which brings me to my question (apologies for the lengthy preamble). As I understand the Old Testament, its purpose, among a few other things, is to give a promise through prophecy that ‘a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us… The Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.’ Obviously, we are talking about the Christ, Jesus.

Upon the birth of Jesus and the fulfillment of the Old Testament, the 24 book of the Jewish Tanakh, a New Age begins. As Jesus collects His disciples and performs His miracles, His teachings become the new gospel. In John 14-6 Jesus states “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father expect through me.” Pretty clear cut in my opinion. Jesus says he is not here to overthrow the Old Testament but to fulfill the prophecy, and that He and He alone is the only way to heaven.

Yet we see many people call themselves Christian yet they continue to follow the teachings of the OT. We see MANY religious leaders preach the OT, complete with that old-fashioned hatred and bigotry. Why?

What is the point of the New Testament if people continue to follow the old teachings? How can anyone say they accept Jesus Christ and yet refuse to follow His teachings though his sermons and parables? This seems hypocritical to me and leaves me very confused with the entirety of Christianity.

So, my final question is this: what is the point of the New Testament if worshippers are going to ignore it?

Jesus teaches almost the exact opposite of the laws in the OT. Deut. 18:20 says that any prophet who presumes to speak in His name anything He has not commanded shall be put to death. Did Jesus truly die to wash away our sins or was He put to death in accordance with the Old Laws, thus negating any fact that He may truly be the Son of God?

I am genuinely interested in a conversation, if not debate, on this matter.

Thank you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Thank you for your post, I read it with great interest although, of course, sad at your experience in these churches. You wrote a lot and a lot is to be answered. First, you asked "I further stated that it did not make sense that any religious leader of worshipper who had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior refused to follow His teachings – how could they call themselves a Christian?"

This comes from the modern theology that requires that a person only "accept Jesus into their heart" without any repentance of wrong done or guilt feelings or change of behaviour. Just pray the prayer "accepting Jesus" and nothing else and you are guaranteed Heaven (in some circles.) This is because the gospel Jesus and his disciples preached, that is "repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand" has been watered down. No change in behaviour required. It is not the Gospel and some of these, at least, are in for a very unpleasant surprise when they stand before Jesus. But it explains why so many see no need to follow the teachings of Christ.

I have a question for you, what bigotry do you see in the Old Testament? You know, the Old Testament is where God told the nation that their laws ought to be fair to the stranger treating them no differently. It was where God told people murder is wrong, jealousy is wrong, adultery is wrong, stealing is wrong and that they ought to help each other especially the widow and orphan, those who need help. So I do not see where you find bigotry and the opposite of Jesus' teaching there. Can you specify? Where do you find bigotry and hatred in the church besides in those who react strongly to being challenged in what they teach and live? (Many a good man has been asked to leave a church because they asked the minister questions.)

The New Testament itself answers your OP. "These things are written so that you can believe and in believing, have life in Christ" (from memory so not a direct quote.) There are many who have found Christ and surrendered and walked with him finding new life in that choice through the New Testament.

 

[Free]

Hello

Before I post my question I’d like to give a little background on myself. Despite my mother considering becoming a nun in her youth and my father leaving his seminary studies after a short time, I was raised with no pressure to adhere to any religion. We never read the Bible in my childhood and never once was I quoted scripture by either of my parents.

As a youth I had questions, as most of us do, and I sought those answers through the church. We had several churches of varying denominations nearby and I first attended Sunday School in a small Presbyterian church and I enjoyed it. The stories, the laughter, the ‘Jesus loves all of you’ mentality. It was great! Then I reached the age where I started sitting in adult sermons. I was instantly confused as the message shifted from Jesus loves to… something else. I couldn’t quite put my finger on it but I no longer had that good feeling. After a while I left the church and went to a Baptist church, not really knowing what to expect, but looking for something different. This church was… different. It had its own television studio. Every service was loud and energetic, but negative. The Pastor touched on a few letters from Paul, the Corinthians, etc. but was rife with political activism and strong pro-conservative vibes (even if I was still too young to understand these terms then, the sentiment was felt hard.)

I remember I was about fifteen or so when I approached the pastor and asked why he wasn’t teaching the parables or the Sermon on the Mount or any of Jesus’ teachings. I further stated that it did not make sense that any religious leader of worshipper who had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior refused to follow His teachings – how could they call themselves a Christian?

I was asked to leave and find another church.

I spent the next few decades pondering this and looking in to a variety of books and sources but nothing ever actually answered that question. No, at 52, I am an atheist. Or, more accurately, a non-theist. I do not hate God or religion. I am not against religion in any way. I fully believe that religion is a place which allows people from a wide variety of backgrounds to come together in a sense of togetherness and family. Who could hate that??

What I hate is any PERSON who abuses the foundation of religion for their personal gains; to gain power, to gain wealth, to be idolized and worshipped as they would worship God.

First, welcome to the forums! Second, God is strongly against such people as well. They will face his wrath.

More, I hate anyone who spews hatred and bigotry as outlined in the Old Testament.

This requires further explanation as to precisely what you are referring to, but hatred and bigotry are sins.

Which brings me to my question (apologies for the lengthy preamble). As I understand the Old Testament, its purpose, among a few other things, is to give a promise through prophecy that ‘a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us… The Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.’ Obviously, we are talking about the Christ, Jesus.

Upon the birth of Jesus and the fulfillment of the Old Testament, the 24 book of the Jewish Tanakh, a New Age begins. As Jesus collects His disciples and performs His miracles, His teachings become the new gospel. In John 14-6 Jesus states “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father expect through me.” Pretty clear cut in my opinion. Jesus says he is not here to overthrow the Old Testament but to fulfill the prophecy, and that He and He alone is the only way to heaven.

Yet we see many people call themselves Christian yet they continue to follow the teachings of the OT. We see MANY religious leaders preach the OT, complete with that old-fashioned hatred and bigotry. Why?

What is the point of the New Testament if people continue to follow the old teachings?

It depends on which teachings Christians are still teaching and following, but the OT still has bearing on the Christian life. To what degree is of much debate. The NT is, after all, a continuation of the story of the OT. Everything in the OT points to Christ

How can anyone say they accept Jesus Christ and yet refuse to follow His teachings though his sermons and parables? This seems hypocritical to me and leaves me very confused with the entirety of Christianity.

So, my final question is this: what is the point of the New Testament if worshippers are going to ignore it?

If worshippers ignore the teachings of the NT, that would be hypocritical, and they likely are not Christians. That is not to say that Christians don’t make mistakes, sin, or misunderstand the teachings of the NT, but there are many who are Christian in name only:

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (ESV)

Jesus teaches almost the exact opposite of the laws in the OT. Deut. 18:20 says that any prophet who presumes to speak in His name anything He has not commanded shall be put to death. Did Jesus truly die to wash away our sins or was He put to death in accordance with the Old Laws, thus negating any fact that He may truly be the Son of God?

He is truly the Son of God and did die for our sins, according to the plan of God to reconcile us to himself.

I am genuinely interested in a conversation, if not debate, on this matter.

As am I.

Thank you.

And thank you.

 

[Angelical]

Hello

Before I post my question I’d like to give a little background on myself. Despite my mother considering becoming a nun in her youth and my father leaving his seminary studies after a short time, I was raised with no pressure to adhere to any religion. We never read the Bible in my childhood and never once was I quoted scripture by either of my parents.

As a youth I had questions, as most of us do, and I sought those answers through the church. We had several churches of varying denominations nearby and I first attended Sunday School in a small Presbyterian church and I enjoyed it. The stories, the laughter, the ‘Jesus loves all of you’ mentality. It was great! Then I reached the age where I started sitting in adult sermons. I was instantly confused as the message shifted from Jesus loves to… something else. I couldn’t quite put my finger on it but I no longer had that good feeling. After a while I left the church and went to a Baptist church, not really knowing what to expect, but looking for something different. This church was… different. It had its own television studio. Every service was loud and energetic, but negative. The Pastor touched on a few letters from Paul, the Corinthians, etc. but was rife with political activism and strong pro-conservative vibes (even if I was still too young to understand these terms then, the sentiment was felt hard.)

I remember I was about fifteen or so when I approached the pastor and asked why he wasn’t teaching the parables or the Sermon on the Mount or any of Jesus’ teachings. I further stated that it did not make sense that any religious leader of worshipper who had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior refused to follow His teachings – how could they call themselves a Christian?

I was asked to leave and find another church.

I spent the next few decades pondering this and looking in to a variety of books and sources but nothing ever actually answered that question. No, at 52, I am an atheist. Or, more accurately, a non-theist. I do not hate God or religion. I am not against religion in any way. I fully believe that religion is a place which allows people from a wide variety of backgrounds to come together in a sense of togetherness and family. Who could hate that??

What I hate is any PERSON who abuses the foundation of religion for their personal gains; to gain power, to gain wealth, to be idolized and worshipped as they would worship God. More, I hate anyone who spews hatred and bigotry as outlined in the Old Testament.

Which brings me to my question (apologies for the lengthy preamble). As I understand the Old Testament, its purpose, among a few other things, is to give a promise through prophecy that ‘a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us… The Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.’ Obviously, we are talking about the Christ, Jesus.

Upon the birth of Jesus and the fulfillment of the Old Testament, the 24 book of the Jewish Tanakh, a New Age begins. As Jesus collects His disciples and performs His miracles, His teachings become the new gospel. In John 14-6 Jesus states “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father expect through me.” Pretty clear cut in my opinion. Jesus says he is not here to overthrow the Old Testament but to fulfill the prophecy, and that He and He alone is the only way to heaven.

Yet we see many people call themselves Christian yet they continue to follow the teachings of the OT. We see MANY religious leaders preach the OT, complete with that old-fashioned hatred and bigotry. Why?

What is the point of the New Testament if people continue to follow the old teachings? How can anyone say they accept Jesus Christ and yet refuse to follow His teachings though his sermons and parables? This seems hypocritical to me and leaves me very confused with the entirety of Christianity.

So, my final question is this: what is the point of the New Testament if worshippers are going to ignore it?

Jesus teaches almost the exact opposite of the laws in the OT. Deut. 18:20 says that any prophet who presumes to speak in His name anything He has not commanded shall be put to death. Did Jesus truly die to wash away our sins or was He put to death in accordance with the Old Laws, thus negating any fact that He may truly be the Son of God?

I am genuinely interested in a conversation, if not debate, on this matter.

Thank you.

So first I would actually start with kind of the end of what you said. So the Old Testament you mention as maybe like an Old Book of Bigotry which I can understand where you come from seeing the Westboro Baptists, and the like sometimes yes Bigoted beliefs, which sometimes actually are against Jewish People. And you kind of used Words showing you know the Jews aren’t just like picking up Bibles and reading the front, but have their own everything. So you already know it’s kind of like the Jewish Scriptures.

And so, if we look at Genesis, we see Sodom and Gamorrah which you could say is Bigotry as it does give some Justification to Bigots, and then we can look at Nephilim Hunters, they find use of the Biblical Term Nephilim for Bigotry. Then of course like the KKK and David Duke runs around with Crosses and Bibles, saying things like the Mark of Caine is Melanin, and “Jews are Racist against Gentiles“, the Tiki Torch carrying, “the Jews will not replace us crowd”. But like a Socialist Nun, you can look at the Bible and see it differently. The Bible has a lot going on.

So Genesis continues on through like Abraham and Jacob, talking about Elam and Nineveh and Damascus and things. Then and like Abraham says like “Can I be buried here?”, when like 5,000 People were like doing important things at the Time or whatever in the whole World. And it gets to Joseph being Sold into Slavery and then it ends with Joseph bringing his Family to Egypt and going to Bury Jacob. So, it’s a Story of Union between Egypt and Jews.

Then,
Moses is part of a now Enslaved Jewish Population who Migrated after Joseph, according to History these were also likely Prisoners of War who were Captured Invaders coming back to a land they helped Establish, that History is the Sea People. So Moses is raised in the Palace though, and he kills a Slave Driver and reunites later with the Slave group after living in another Land, Marrying in that other Land, he goes back to his People after that when he is told everyone who wants him Dead died themselves. So he goes back and challenges Pharaoh and all that but says, like “I can’t do this” and Aaron does a lot of it. So then that goes into the Promised Land, Israel.

Sure, they take Jerusalem from the Jebusites, that happened, but like “Who dat”, but so then Israel is Established the Judges do all that, then Samuel let’s the People have a King because they say it’s what they want, so he gives them Saul, then David.

And sure like from there and really most of it, you don’t need to even know, you’re Right, but it’s better if your Political Leaders, Kings around the World, just like it’s good to know things. And then so all of the Old Testament, it’s like a Law Book, and so you can look at the things in the Old Testament and it’s kind of like, you can say “So and so did it”, and it’s good to have that. This is why Jewish People become Lawyers as kind of a Stereotype, they are used to reading not just those Ancient Books but all the 100 AD arguments about them and everything, I think many Jews are also maybe Atheists, or Non-Practicing Jews. But if we look at Judaism, it is a Book that gets into Gods in a different way that allows a much better understanding.

Continued…

 

[Angelical]

If we look at say like Hermes or Poseidon, or or Thoth and Poseidon, or Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, we can see some things. If we look at Today, when we see a Book, Stars, Planets, Moon Cycles, Instruments to measure the Sky, we might think “Science” or like “Academia” maybe “Witchcraft”, the Greeks also say the Book, they then had the Hermit type Scientist, the Alchemist you could say. So this kind of Archetype is Mercury, Thermometers and Quicksilver, etc. Benjamin Franklin. But if we look at Judaism, Moses is this but he is like Poseidon or Neptune, maybe best seen in Moses and Thomas Jefferson as writers of Constitutional Documents. Also, both from Royal Families so Noble Blooded, and speaking as Leaders of a People but also to the outside World, as Moses did for the Jews. So Judaism takes that Alchemist or Academic, and he is coming from Moses, maybe Merlin is a useful example. So then also the Oranges and Yellows and Reds of Mercury become Blue like Neptune, it is like the difference between a Buddhist Monk usually thought of as wearing Orange, and a Jewish kind of we could maybe best identify it in the Constitutional aspect, the Jewish People are an Ethnic Group not just a Religion, it is a set of Laws being passed down, and Prophecy and things.

So then the New Testament, after Jesus died and the Disciples went out after Saul became Paul and saw the like Ghost of Jesus, the Disciples wrote some Letters. And Peter wrote some, and Jude put one in. They also tried to get into detail, because a number of People they were talking to had questions, and People just hearing about Jesus and things, there were so many questions and things about what to do while waiting for the Son of Man. They wanted to know what to do, kind of like you are asking “What is it for?”, it was written for those asking about Jesus, it’s a Gospel about Jesus having Died, but for a Reason.

And Jesus is Jewish, but we could put Jesus more in kind of a Sun and Mercury thing, sure he does the Boats and Fish and Calming Storms, but there are Buddhists out there saying Jesus was a Buddhist Monk. And Siddhartha and Jesus were both Rightful Royals preaching a kind of Loving King Philosophy, you could maybe even say Philosopher Kings like the Indus Valley. Jesus and Siddhartha are kind of both part of a New Era where the Bronze Age and it’s Gods are about States, Nations, in the Roman and Hindu Religion and things and their Age becomes about the King (In Jesus and Siddhartha) we could say, or the People, which is what the Bible does anyways, it makes all these Sky stories as simple as interactions between People. And we can also see this when the Jews ask Samuel for a King and he tells them God is their King, and they say they want a King like everyone else. So the Bible in some ways becomes the West’s only connection to something that is also then in the Jewish Scriptures, but is in Hinduism and Roman Religion, but the Christian Religion makes it forefront.

The New Testament brings Death into perspective, the importance of Love, and Sacrifice, Martyrdom and not just dying for a Cause but as he was dying he forgave everyone, and said they didn’t know what they were doing. A lot of what Jesus did was unspoken.

John 17
1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.6 "I have revealed you [1] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.13 "I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.17 Sanctify [2] them by the truth; your word is truth.18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.25 "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

As Jesus is going to be killed he is not exactly completely thrilled even though he is accepting that he will die and God’s reason for his Death, and the Glory that should follow. So he prepares to Die and maybe we wonder why, but none of these People really mattered to anyone, Rome was the Empire, Classical Civilization seemed to have Created all Tools, Discovered all things, some of them probably wondered if anyone could even make too many more inventions or if it had all been thought up already. And Jesus died so the Book would go out and we could be talking about it today.

I think the Sun is on God’s Team you could say, maybe Jesus is the Sun, but it seems the Sun sends out these Waves, and different Spirits from Plants, Light, Seasons, Days, Humans, these kind of Spirits they want representation in Art, in Tattoos, in Clothing, in everything, these things want Order and we don’t always realize it, and sometimes if there isn’t enough Red, maybe Eris or Ares, Mars, or some other Entity causes someone to Draw Blood for that instead. And so sometimes this is fulfilled by like Eating each other, or Farming and things. And Jesus was part of this, and a lot of things added up, and ended with his Death and a Big Bang of Literature about it, to fulfill what could have otherwise been a much more Beautiful situation with Jesus and the Perfume Temple stuff, and him being a Royal and everything by Blood.

 

[RLKIII]

Thank you for the responses. It will take me a while to read and digest these in order to respond.

 

[RLKIII]

Thank you for your post, I read it with great interest although, of course, sad at your experience in these churches. You wrote a lot and a lot is to be answered. First, you asked "I further stated that it did not make sense that any religious leader of worshipper who had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior refused to follow His teachings – how could they call themselves a Christian?"

This comes from the modern theology that requires that a person only "accept Jesus into their heart" without any repentance of wrong done or guilt feelings or change of behaviour. Just pray the prayer "accepting Jesus" and nothing else and you are guaranteed Heaven (in some circles.) This is because the gospel Jesus and his disciples preached, that is "repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand" has been watered down. No change in behaviour required. It is not the Gospel and some of these, at least, are in for a very unpleasant surprise when they stand before Jesus. But it explains why so many see no need to follow the teachings of Christ.

I have a question for you, what bigotry do you see in the Old Testament? You know, the Old Testament is where God told the nation that their laws ought to be fair to the stranger treating them no differently. It was where God told people murder is wrong, jealousy is wrong, adultery is wrong, stealing is wrong and that they ought to help each other especially the widow and orphan, those who need help. So I do not see where you find bigotry and the opposite of Jesus' teaching there. Can you specify? Where do you find bigotry and hatred in the church besides in those who react strongly to being challenged in what they teach and live? (Many a good man has been asked to leave a church because they asked the minister questions.)

The New Testament itself answers your OP. "These things are written so that you can believe and in believing, have life in Christ" (from memory so not a direct quote.) There are many who have found Christ and surrendered and walked with him finding new life in that choice through the New Testament.

I have a question for you, what bigotry do you see in the Old Testament?

A valid question, and perhaps a misunderstanding or assumption on my behalf. I am familiar with the Commandments wherein God says ‘do not kill’, etc. I sometimes refer to them as his ‘ten simple rules for being a better person’. I was taught this from a young age. As I look around me these days I see a plethora of passages in the OT used to place hatred upon and even deny human rights because of what is written. People (most often Evangelicals and right-wing politicians) often point to the book of Leviticus (18:22) to deny basic rights to homosexuals and members of the LGBTQ community. The writing is clear: “you shall not lie with a man as with a woman..” That, in my opinion, is not only a bigoted passage, but one drafted from ignorance and fear.

It can be debated whether or not God “hates” anyone but the writing is clear; He does not approve of this. I can understand how Christians today feel it is their responsibility in their love for God to ‘hate’ gays. Does this make them bigots? The definition of the word is “a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.”

So by following Lev. 18:20 and using that as a basis for denying people basic human rights because it goes against your beliefs, and not necessarily theirs, is in my opinion bigoted.

Furthermore, in several books and passages we read God’s commandment to kill Canaanites. Women and children included. A mass killing. This is only one example of God commanding His followers to violate the first of His Commandments. Can you see why I am a bit confused?

Now, on the homosexuality thing, I believe every person has a right to follow their own spiritual beliefs. Religion is a very personal thing and I respect that. If the Bible says do not engage in homosexuality, then I fully believe that no one within that religion should do that as it goes against their dogmatic principles. The same with abortion. If it goes against your religion’s beliefs don’t do it.

However, I lose any and all respect for those who would attempt to use their beliefs as a weapon against others, demanding that those outside of their church abet their rules.

As a side note, I get confused on the topic of abortion as well. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that life begins at conception, but there are many passages which refer to the ‘first breath’ denoting life. God gave breath to mud and bore Adam. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says it plainly: “As with our birth, the presence of breath is not only equated with biological life but that life is clearly attributed to the Author of Life, our sovereign creator God.”

Exodus points out that if a pregnant woman is hit in a fight and miscarries (the fruit departs from her) the offending party is to merely pay a fine. If any more ‘mischief’ were to follow, or there was a death, the offending man would be killed in kind. I understand that this chapter has been reworked and re-worded over the years to ‘soften the blow’ as it were.

We also have the Ordeal of Bitter Water as noted in Numbers 5:11-23 which literally gives an example of how to administer an abortion should the husband suspect his wife is pregnant with another man’s child.

The New Testament itself answers your OP. "These things are written so that you can believe and in believing, have life in Christ" (from memory so not a direct quote.) There are many who have found Christ and surrendered and walked with him finding new life in that choice through the New Testament.

What does this say about those who cry out they are Christian but refuse to follow His teachings? Or religions leaders who refuse to teach His parables and Sermons? When politicians push an agenda of hatred, racism, isolationism and bigotry?

In my mind, Deut. 18:20 comes in to play here.

 

[RLKIII]

First, welcome to the forums! Second, God is strongly against such people as well. They will face his wrath.


This requires further explanation as to precisely what you are referring to, but hatred and bigotry are sins.


It depends on which teachings Christians are still teaching and following, but the OT still has bearing on the Christian life. To what degree is of much debate. The NT is, after all, a continuation of the story of the OT. Everything in the OT points to Christ


If worshippers ignore the teachings of the NT, that would be hypocritical, and they likely are not Christians. That is not to say that Christians don’t make mistakes, sin, or misunderstand the teachings of the NT, but there are many who are Christian in name only:

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (ESV)


He is truly the Son of God and did die for our sins, according to the plan of God to reconcile us to himself.


As am I.


And thank you.

If worshippers ignore the teachings of the NT, that would be hypocritical, and they likely are not Christians. That is not to say that Christians don’t make mistakes, sin, or misunderstand the teachings of the NT, but there are many who are Christian in name only:



Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (ESV)

If this is indeed true, why are there not more ‘true’ Christians outspoken against this? I never hear anyone crying out on this fact. It is people and leaders like this who are turning more and more people away from Christianity because they, too, see the hypocrisy.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What is the point of the New Testament?​

The simple answer is it's a convenient explanation of the gospel found in and alluded to in the OT that would be difficult for us ourselves to glean:

21But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. Romans 3:21

Paul and others did the hard work of pouring over the OT scriptures and summarizing and explaining them in various NT letters proclaiming the Good News found in those scriptures that has been revealed and made manifest to the world in the coming of Jesus Christ.

 

[hawkman]

Are we in the lounge ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Looks like it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As Jesus collects His disciples and performs His miracles, His teachings become the new gospel.

No, it's the same gospel preached to Abraham long before the law of Moses.

Jesus is the fulfillment of the promise that God made to Abraham.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus says he is not here to overthrow the Old Testament but to fulfill the prophecy, and that He and He alone is the only way to heaven.

And not just to fulfill OT prophecy, but to fulfill and satisfy the requirements for Priest and Sacrifice to mediate an everlasting forgiveness and reconciliation between God and fallen man and avoid the just penalty for sin spelled out in the law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yet we see many people call themselves Christian yet they continue to follow the teachings of the OT. We see MANY religious leaders preach the OT, complete with that old-fashioned hatred and bigotry. Why?

Because they are not born again and do not have the revelation of peace and forgiveness through Christ's Ministry and Sacrifice.

Spiritual truth and understanding about the plan and purpose of God for the redemption of fallen man revealed in the Bible only comes through the Holy Spirit of God revealing it to a person. It can not be fully understood and explained to person by simply reading about it.

Because we are fallen and do not have the Holy Spirit we can not in our natural selves grasp and receive what the Bible says in plain words. Only God by an act of his mercy and grace can enable a person to see and understand truth.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

A valid question, and perhaps a misunderstanding or assumption on my behalf. I am familiar with the Commandments wherein God says ‘do not kill’, etc. I sometimes refer to them as his ‘ten simple rules for being a better person’.

They are actually to show you how to treat others better, not better yourself.

I was taught this from a young age. As I look around me these days I see a plethora of passages in the OT used to place hatred upon and even deny human rights because of what is written.

Beside homosexuals, who? And what western nations deprives homosexuals of their legal rights? “Human” rights is rather silly because WHO guarantees “human” rights and if no one, how are they “rights?”

People (most often Evangelicals and right-wing politicians) often point to the book of Leviticus (18:22) to deny basic rights to homosexuals and members of the LGBTQ community.

Where? In what country?

The writing is clear: “you shall not lie with a man as with a woman..” That, in my opinion, is not only a bigoted passage, but one drafted from ignorance and fear.

Well, the evidence is that community is more likely to die early if disease or violence (from lovers.) Their life span is shorter. They suffer more depression despite being widely accepted. Suicide rates are higher. Doesn’t sound like ignorance.

It can be debated whether or not God “hates” anyone but the writing is clear; He does not approve of this.

Understanding this is probably difficult if one doesn’t see the whole truth. He doesn’t hate them especially but when they proudly walk through the streets in mass, naked and posing in sensual positions to entice young people to lust and sin, this He hates. They proud chant, “we’re here, we’re queer, we’re coming for YOUR CHILDREN!!!” Do you think that’s OK?

I can understand how Christians today feel it is their responsibility in their love for God to ‘hate’ gays.

Who does this?

Does this make them bigots? The definition of the word is “a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.”

You need to come up with a host of names because in every western nation they have all the rights and respect of anyone else. I think this is a strawman argument.

So by following Lev. 18:20 and using that as a basis for denying people basic human rights because it goes against your beliefs, and not necessarily theirs, is in my opinion bigoted.

Where is this happening?

Furthermore, in several books and passages we read God’s commandment to kill Canaanites. Women and children included. A mass killing. This is only one example of God commanding His followers to violate the first of His Commandments. Can you see why I am a bit confused?

Sometimes they were not to kill all the women and none of the children. What was a war supposed to look like?

Now, on the homosexuality thing, I believe every person has a right to follow their own spiritual beliefs. Religion is a very personal thing and I respect that. If the Bible says do not engage in homosexuality, then I fully believe that no one within that religion should do that as it goes against their dogmatic principles. The same with abortion. If it goes against your religion’s beliefs don’t do it.

However, I lose any and all respect for those who would attempt to use their beliefs as a weapon against others, demanding that those outside of their church abet their rules.

Again, what nation restricts their rights?

As a side note, I get confused on the topic of abortion as well. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that life begins at conception, but there are many passages which refer to the ‘first breath’ denoting life. God gave breath to mud and bore Adam. Ecclesiastes 12:7 says it plainly: “As with our birth, the presence of breath is not only equated with biological life but that life is clearly attributed to the Author of Life, our sovereign creator God.”

Do not murder.

Exodus points out that if a pregnant woman is hit in a fight and miscarries (the fruit departs from her) the offending party is to merely pay a fine. If any more ‘mischief’ were to follow, or there was a death, the offending man would be killed in kind. I understand that this chapter has been reworked and re-worded over the years to ‘soften the blow’ as it were.

Well, fetal life is of value.

We also have the Ordeal of Bitter Water as noted in Numbers 5:11-23 which literally gives an example of how to administer an abortion should the husband suspect his wife is pregnant with another man’s child.

No, it’s a way to prove innocence. Dirt doesn’t generate an abortion.

What does this say about those who cry out they are Christian but refuse to follow His teachings?

So far you having named any they don’t follow. Try some. Be specific.

Or religions leaders who refuse to teach His parables and Sermons?

Yes, I have to agree with you here. Sigh!!

When politicians push an agenda of hatred, racism, isolationism and bigotry?

Who is doing this?

In my mind, Deut. 18:20 comes in to play here.

Who in modern times?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So by following Lev. 18:20 and using that as a basis for denying people basic human rights because it goes against your beliefs, and not necessarily theirs, is in my opinion bigoted.

Nobody has a basic human right to indulge behavior that hurts another person or society at large.

Many people view God's commands as restrictive and unfair, but really God's commands are given for our welfare and the good of society. Now, I don't mean every single command in the OT. Some of those were for the purpose of illustration of higher spiritual truth, and now that we understand that we can lay them aside. Things like murder, adultery, theft, homosexuality, etc. are obviously not among those.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Furthermore, in several books and passages we read God’s commandment to kill Canaanites. Women and children included. A mass killing. This is only one example of God commanding His followers to violate the first of His Commandments. Can you see why I am a bit confused?

They were executing God's judgment, not their own against those people.

Sin had come to the full in that culture, and in God's judgment it was time to erase that culture from the face of the earth. That's going to happen in the future for all wicked peoples and cultures at the end of the age, and it's generally understood that the people of God will war with Jesus in executing that judgment. So it's kind of an illustration of things to come.

But I will add, what they did is an illustration for the Christian, now, of how he is to execute the judgment of God in the death and displacement of all things evil that dwells in one's heart. For the heart of the Christian is the 'land' where God has ordained that his kingdom in this life will rule and reign, just as the land of Canaan was that in the natural. So all wickedness must be destroyed and rooted out of the land of the believer's heart that was once inhabited and controlled by the powers of darkness, but which has been ordained by God to be captured violently by the believer and inhabited for his purpose and kingdom.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Exodus points out that if a pregnant woman is hit in a fight and miscarries (the fruit departs from her) the offending party is to merely pay a fine. If any more ‘mischief’ were to follow, or there was a death, the offending man would be killed in kind. I understand that this chapter has been reworked and re-worded over the years to ‘soften the blow’ as it were.

The matter of the unborn is not so much a matter of when life starts but that it has, or will. Abortion violently interferes with the life that God has decided will be created for whom he has ordained a future and plan. We have no right or authority to interfere with what God is doing and what he has planned for that person.

In the matter of the death of the unborn from accident or injury, children were economic advantages to a family and one had to make restitution for the loss of a child to another person that they are responsible for causing. It's simple justice. God is all about fairness and justice.

Notice the aspect of 'life for life'.
The law is where we learn about God's law of 'life for life'. Jesus is the debt of 'life for life' that we owe for our sin. Jesus takes our place and pays the life we owe for our sins. He is the 'eye for eye', 'life for life', 'tooth for tooth', 'burn for burn' that God's justice demands. And you will pay that yourself if you don't avail yourself of God's offer of letting Jesus be that payment you owe for your sin.

We also have the Ordeal of Bitter Water as noted in Numbers 5:11-23 which literally gives an example of how to administer an abortion should the husband suspect his wife is pregnant with another man’s child.

In no way is the water that brings a curse designed to initiate an abortion.

This is one of those laws that illustrate a spiritual truth. Notice the priest holds the water that brings the curse. That's a picture of our Priest, Jesus, who takes that which brings the curse into his hands.

The curse is that if the woman has been unfaithful, she will be unfruitful, and thus considered accursed among her people. That's a picture of how we, too, will suffer the curse of spiritual unfruitfulness if we are not faithful to husband, Jesus. It's the sign that you are not in covenant with, or that you are estranged from, Jesus. For no one can bear the fruit of the Spirit without being in faithful 'marital' covenant with Jesus. Therefore, the sign that you are in covenant with Jesus is that you bear his fruit, the fruit of your union with him, the fruit of the Spirit (love, peace, patience, kindness, etc.). In no way is this a passage about administering an abortion. That's a spiritless interpretation devoid of spiritual revelation and understanding.

 

[RLKIII]

!whew! Again, a lot to digest here... thank you both for your input. I'll try to be careful and complete in reading them.

 

[RLKIII]

Beside homosexuals, who? And what western nations deprives homosexuals of their legal rights? “Human” rights is rather silly because WHO guarantees “human” rights and if no one, how are they “rights?”

The Bible has been used MULTIPLE TIMES as an excuse to preach hatred and bigotry. The following examples are from Rev. Connie Regener, a student at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena.

“Racism was preached from the pulpit during the Civil War when denominational leaders argued from Scripture that slavery was God’s will. Today, descendants of those same religious leaders are preaching that sexism is God’s will (Southern Baptist Convention decision, June 2000).”

As I understand it, one of the earlier (yet recent) examples of twisting the interpretation of the Bible to impose bigotry is the Mark of Cain. As an outsider to religion, it is clear that the story of Cain being punished for committing the first murder of his brother Abel is that God curses Cain so that no crop he sows can ever be reaped; that any grain he plants will die and wither. A ‘black mark’. Yet there are those today in (thankfully) smaller communities that still hold onto the interpretation that this means he was literally turned Black and that’s why we should hate Black people.

Obviously this is nonsense, but never underestimate a person’s wilful ignorance in interpretating Scripture for their own personal gain.

” If I Timothy 2:11-12 is interpreted as an absolute prohibition on women teaching and exercising authority in the church, then it would be a de facto elimination of women from using their God-given minds, talents and spiritual gifts. Likewise, I would have to be biblically illiterate to believe that when Paul calls for women to “keep silent,” he is referring to verbal silence,”

Misogyny in the church. Most of us know better these days than to take this at face value, but there are still some who demand this is true.

These are merely two examples of what can be considered bigotry in the Bible. Of course, it all comes down to interpretation. Ephesians 6:5 was used by many in the early days of the US as proof slavery was A-ok with God. Just ask Thomas Jefferson…

Well, the evidence is that community is more likely to die early if disease or violence (from lovers.) Their life span is shorter. They suffer more depression despite being widely accepted. Suicide rates are higher. Doesn’t sound like ignorance.

I am not 100% certain what you’re saying here. Are you insisting that diseases like Aids/HIV are higher in the LGQBT community than others, and this leads to suicide, hence ‘don’t be gay’? While it is indeed true that suicide is the second leading cause of death among youths aged 10-24 in the community, studies show it is bullying, abuse, and the passing of discriminatory laws which lead to depression, drug use and eventually suicide. In areas where such laws are overturned and/or precented, the rate drops dramatically. Bigotry is a hatred or intense dislike for others who are different. Hatred is spawned from fear. Fear always stems from ignorance. It’s not that difficult to draw the line between the dots.

As for the ‘who?’ question, in the US alone:

Nearly 240 anti-LGBTQ bills filed in 2022 so far, most of them targeting trans people

The annual number of anti-LGBTQ bills to have been filed has skyrocketed over the past several years, from 41 in 2018 to 238 in less than three months of this year.

They were executing God's judgment, not their own against those people.

I don’t fully understand this. God says ‘do not kill’ but then orders His followers to do just that, to kill men, women and children because their naughty. That doesn’t sound like a benevolent God to me. He sounds cruel. I won’t even get into the cruelty of Poor Abraham being told to murder his own son, or Job who had everything in life violently taken from him on a wager. A wager that, if He is indeed omniscient, already knew the outcome of but had to prove Himself before Satan?

You need to come up with a host of names because in every western nation they have all the rights and respect of anyone else. I think this is a strawman argument.

Sure.

-Abiding Truth Ministries, Springfield, Mass. serves mainly as a launching pad for an international anti-gay campaign. Its founder, Scott Lively, is also responsible for a book, widely cited by gay-bashers, accusing homosexuals of running the Nazi Party.


-American Family Association. Methodist minister Donald E. Wildmon formed the National Federation for Decency in 1977, changing its name to the American Family Association in 1988. Wildmon was widely denounced as an anti-Semite after suggesting that Jews control the media, which the AFA says “shows a genuine hostility towards Christians.”


-Americans for Truth About Homosexuality was formed as a part-time venture in 1996 by long-time gay-basher Peter LaBarbera, who reorganized it in 2006 as a much more serious and influential, if often vicious, operation.


-American Vision: Led since 1986 by Gary DeMar, American Vision is one of the primary exponents of the doctrine of “Christian Reconstruction” — the idea that the U.S. was founded as a “Christian nation” and that its democracy should be replaced with a theocratic government based on Old Testament law. As a practical matter, that means American Vision, which describes its goal as “restor[ing] America’s Biblical foundation,” backs the death penalty for practicing homosexuals.


I can go on if you prefer.