What is unconditional election, and is it biblical?

[ivdavid]

Those who follow Calvin belong to Calvin's empire. Calvin was a murderer and a psychotic war-lord who tortured people in the name of Christ. He did this because he was empowered by his unique philosophy. Like Obama said; you can put lipstick on a pig; but it's still a pig. You can put lipstick on Calvin - but he is still a cold blooded murderer. Look at the big picture.

What is the big picture?

I'd never read or heard any of Calvin's or any Calvinist's writings/speeches before I was led to the doctrines of TULIP(I didn't know it was referred to as this, back then) solely from my own conversion and my own private reading of Scripture. I have not murdered a fellow human nor am I remotely a psychotic war-lord. I have not tortured anyone. Much later did I come across other people who share my similar experience - and so no, I can't call this a unique philosophy that serves to empower me. Does this entitle me to be heard on my own merit? Would you permit people to listen to my preachings on TULIP?

My point is - what does the messenger have to do with the truth/falsehood of the message? If a murderer were to walk up to me and proclaim that murdering is wrong - am I to outright reject his message as false based on his character? Why can't we just discuss the truth/falsehood of doctrines without poisoning the well with irrelevant data?

 

[Gordon]

Thank you for all those great responses. What about this one, why does Jesus say if anyone causes a child to lose faith in him it would be better if he had a rope around his neck with a stone If like you say no one meant to be saved can be lost?

Also do you also think some evangelists who don't agree with this belief don't have it as part of God's will? I'd think it may be hard for some of these people to devote their lives like they have if they thought this.

 

[ivdavid]

why does Jesus say if anyone causes a child to lose faith in him it would be better if he had a rope around his neck with a stone If like you say no one meant to be saved can be lost?

Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

I checked some other translations too. The phrase used varies within "cause offence/cause to stumble/cause to sin" - there is no reference to the little ones being caused to lose faith in Christ. The only reference w.r.t. faith is that these little ones do believe in Christ - could you provide the translation you use.

Also do you also think some evangelists who don't agree with this belief don't have it as part of God's will? I'd think it may be hard for some of these people to devote their lives like they have if they thought this.

I don't disagree. I have great respect towards John Wesley as an instrument of God - he was strictly a non-calvinist. He shared great respect towards his friend, George Whitfield who was a calvinist. I don't think this doctrine must harbor judging or despising one another. Romans 14 is what helps me make sense of this. God is able to make each of His servants stand(Rom 14:4).

Of course, each side would try and convince themselves that the other side is of the weaker faith - I am not so interested in how we make ourselves feel on this. I'm more interested in upholding God's glory as opposed to any glory of the flesh. I try showing that the calvinist doctrines aren't more offensive than what its opponents proclaim. But I'm not keen on doing so for the doctrine's own sake - God alone is more than sufficient to preserve all truth - I am more eager to show people the Christian liberty that they could have with such an understanding.

Of course, this is why my prayers to God make sense to me. If I believed that accepting truth was solely up to man, I must be wasting my prayers to God - rather I must be praying to man to accept the truth. But I do pray to God to give sight if He wills - to regenerate hearts of stone that they too might share in the glory we are abiding in - as a witness of being most undeserving of all the good that Christ is in me, by His grace, inspite of all the evil that I am by myself.

 

[Gordon]

Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

I checked some other translations too. The phrase used varies within "cause offence/cause to stumble/cause to sin" - there is no reference to the little ones being caused to lose faith in Christ. The only reference w.r.t. faith is that these little ones do believe in Christ - could you provide the translation you use.

I just checked and it's in the Living New Testament, the first Bible I read is where I'm getting it from. I checked online and saw that all but the God's Word translation say something different. It's also different in the Bible I read now. I think I have a lot of studying to do as I find my theology. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Eventide]

Why do people go on and on about this when the simple truth of what they believe is that you are either chosen by God or you're not and there's not a single thing which you can do about it.. ? ?

Why not just tell them the truth... that this is what you believe.. ?

 

[Cassian]

Why do people go on and on about this when the simple truth of what they believe is that you are either chosen by God or you're not and there's not a single thing which you can do about it.. ? ?

Why not just tell them the truth... that this is what you believe.. ?

but God does not select believers, choose anyone to become a believer, or conversely, condemn anyone. Election in scripture has nothing to do with individuals becoming believers.

It is all about God selecting either individuals or groups to perform specific functions for the purpose of His plan. Every election is for performing a service.

 

[Eventide]

but God does not select believers, choose anyone to become a believer, or conversely, condemn anyone. Election in scripture has nothing to do with individuals becoming believers.

It is all about God selecting either individuals or groups to perform specific functions for the purpose of His plan. Every election is for performing a service.

Perhaps you're missing the point.. all I'm saying is why don't these folks who embrace unconditional election just simply tell people the truth about what they believe.. that God will either chose them or not, and it has absolutely nothing to do with them...

See what I'm saying..?

 

[Cassian]

Perhaps you're missing the point.. all I'm saying is why don't these folks who embrace unconditional election just simply tell people the truth about what they believe.. that God will either chose them or not, and it has absolutely nothing to do with them...

See what I'm saying..?

Ok, I understand.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Frankly, there is no Gospel of God's Grace apart from Unconditional Elect of Grace !

 

[Tri Unity]

Frankly, there is no Gospel of God's Grace apart from Unconditional Elect of Grace !

You are entitled to declare anything you want to. That does not make it true. God places conditions on salvation all throughout scripture. You close your eyes to this and preach a different gospel. If there was no conditions, how do you become saved? Isn't faith a condition? Are you saying that you can be saved without faith?

 

[savedbygrace57]

tri un

You are entitled to declare anything you want to.

Not me, amybe you are according to your religion. However, there is no Gospel apart from unconditional election !

 

[Danus]

**** Please address/attack the topic and not each other *****.

 

[Danus]

** There is no reason why we need to resort to attacking members on a personal level about their salvation ***

Address each other with more respect and stick to the issue. If you have something to say about the OP in regards to theology then post that. Keep tempers in check.Anyone who can't speak respectfully, or intellectually on this topic does not need to post here. Let's put more thought into our post please.

 

[rrowell]

Frankly, there is no Gospel of God's Grace apart from Unconditional Elect of Grace !

There ARE those God chose as a vessel to do His work, but those He chose as his "elect" obeyed Him, perpetuated their "elect"ness by obedience to Him, example... the Apostles, He first chose 12, one betrayed Him, fell from his "elect" status and clearly shows to remain "elect" is perpetual obedience and NOT predetermination, every single person the Lord adds to His Church are His "elect", "elected by Him because they obeyed Him" else He would not have added them, and will remain His "elect" provided they perpetuate their "obedience to Him" lest they fall from Grace!

 

[rrowell]

** There is no reason why we need to resort to attacking members on a personal level about their salvation ***

Address each other with more respect and stick to the issue. If you have something to say about the OP in regards to theology then post that. Keep tempers in check.Anyone who can't speak respectfully, or intellectually on this topic does not need to post here. Let's put more thought into our post please.

Sorry Danus, I did not mean to offend

No problem. Apology accepted, and Forgiveness is a virtue. I've edited your post the way I think you meant it. if you need it delighted let me know.

 

[Tri Unity]

There ARE those God chose as a vessel to do His work, but those He chose as his "elect" obeyed Him, perpetuated their "elect"ness by obedience to Him, example... the Apostles, He first chose 12, one betrayed Him, fell from his "elect" status and clearly shows to remain "elect" is perpetual obedience and NOT predetermination, every single person the Lord adds to His Church are His "elect", "elected by Him because they obeyed Him" else He would not have added them, and will remain His "elect" provided they perpetuate their "obedience to Him" lest they fall from Grace!

Exactly. If salvation is "unconditional"; then Judas (and Satan) are still saved.

 

[savedbygrace57]

There ARE those God chose as a vessel to do His work, but those He chose as his "elect" obeyed Him, perpetuated their "elect"ness by obedience to Him, example... the Apostles, He first chose 12, one betrayed Him, fell from his "elect" status and clearly shows to remain "elect" is perpetual obedience and NOT predetermination, every single person the Lord adds to His Church are His "elect", "elected by Him because they obeyed Him" else He would not have added them, and will remain His "elect" provided they perpetuate their "obedience to Him" lest they fall from Grace!

Frankly, there is no Gospel of God's Grace apart from Unconditional Elect of Grace !

 

[rrowell]

Frankly, there is no Gospel of God's Grace apart from Unconditional Elect of Grace !

Bump the needle, your record has a skip in it...

 

[Butch5]

Bump the needle, your record has a skip in it...

LOL!!!

 

[heymikey80]

Perhaps you're missing the point.. all I'm saying is why don't these folks who embrace unconditional election just simply tell people the truth about what they believe.. that God will either chose them or not, and it has absolutely nothing to do with them...

See what I'm saying..?

Maybe because that's not how unconditional election works ...?

Unconditional election is about the promise of God being unilateral, not based on what people do, or what their genealogy is.

But it has absolutely everything to do with them. It's all an effect of God's election, not its cause.

The serious trouble encountered with most critiques of unconditional election is this: election is not itself, salvation. Election is the choosing from God, but to think human beings aren't affected by God's choice itself is a pretty odd thought. Election is a choice that begins a process. Salvation is a process beginning in election. But salvation is not election on its own.