What The Bible Has The Others Don't...

[turnorburn]

: The Truth about Hell
by Terry Watkins

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. .. ." Luke 16:23

What you're about to read is hard to believe.. . .

We're going to examine the place the Bible calls hell. We'll present documented evidence for a place called hell. Don't take what you're going to read lightly. If what you read is true - YOU COULD BE IN SERIOUS DANGER!

Several years ago a book was published, entitled Beyond Death's Door by Dr. Maurice Rawlings. Dr. Rawlings, a specialist in Internal Medicine and Cardiovascular Disease, resuscitated many people who had been clinically dead. Dr. Rawlings, a devout atheist, "considered all religion "hocus-pocus" and death nothing more than a painless extinction". But something happened in 1977 that brought a dramatic change in the life of Dr. Rawlings! He was resuscitating a man, terrified and screaming - descending down into the flames of hell:
"Each time he regained heartbeat and respiration, the patient screamed, "I am in hell!" He was terrified and pleaded with me to help him.. I was scared to death. . . Then I noticed a genuinely alarmed look on his face. He had a terrified look worse than the expression seen in death! This patient had a grotesque grimace expressing sheer horror! His pupils were dilated, and he was perspiring and trembling - he looked as if his hair was "on end."
Then still another strange thing happened. He said,"Don't you understand? I am in hell. . . Don't let me go back to hell!" . . .the man was serious, and it finally occurred to me that he was indeed in trouble. He was in a panic like I had never seen before."
(Maurice Rawlings, Beyond Death's Door,(Thomas Nelson Inc., 1979) p. 3).
Dr. Rawlings said, no one, who could have heard his screams and saw the look of terror on his face could doubt for a single minute that he was actually in a place called hell!

The Bible continually warns of a place called hell. There are over 162 references in the New Testament alone which warn of hell. And over 70 of these references were uttered by the Lord Jesus Christ!

In Luke 16, Jesus Christ gives a frightening picture of hell:

22 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (Luke 16:22-28)
HELL IS A PLACE OF FIRE

Be scarred, be very scarred

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

That is a nice anecdote.

Once I had a dream that I was being swarmed by a massive amount of ants and spiders. They were clawing my face and biting my heels. I saw them everywhere in my room. They were dripping of the walls like thick black paint. They surrounded me and were completely suffocating.

In my dream, I ran out of my room, down the hall, and lunged down my stairs to escape the madness. I awoke in mid flight and landed square on my butt in the middle of the stairs, and then rolled to the bottom. I limped to my couch in pain and slept. I awoke in the morning to a pulsating black bruise on my back and bottom and recalled the event.

The mind is a powerful thing.

 

[turnorburn]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

It most certainly is a powerful thing, "the mind" but imagine a dream and in the dream, "nightmare" you are here

and instead of waking up, falling down and bruising your bottom your at the bottom of this pit. And then you scream and claw at the flames and instead of waking up you realize this is where you'll spend the rest of eternity. :

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

Why would I want to focus my mind on such a thing?

 

[Rick W]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

It does seem preaching "Brimestone and Fire" has fallen out of favor these days. And why not? Even school students don't "fail" a subject anymore but are "insufficent". It's more palable I guess. It's a "feel good" society we're building and preaching Hell doesn't fit in.
So smile a lot, tell the kids we have nothing for them, to just go out and do whatever makes them feel good about themselves and get along in life. Drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

(Still trying to figure out how to die safely and avoid hurting anybody's feelings)
:-D

 

[handy]

Interesting point Rick.

I was talking with my family once about the great revivals of the 1700's and 1800's. What impacts me about those revivals is the fact that so many of the great sermons of that era are filled with "fire and brimstone". "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God", Johnathan Edwards classic sermon was a hallmark of the Great Awakening in America during the 1730, and a springboard for conversion of uncounted people. The hymns of that era are also marked with how majestic, and great God is, and what miserable sinners men are. Hymns like "Amazing Grace", "Alas, And Did My Savior Bleed" with lyrics like:

Was it for crimes that I had done
He groaned upon the tree?
Amazing pity, grace unknown
And love beyond degree!

And, during the Awakenings, folks became Christians in droves, and many denominations, including the Church of the Nazarene were birthed during these "Awakenings".

Nowdays, our sermons are on God's love for us and our songs are on what a great relationship we have with God and with each other. In my opinion, the Church is being more and more weakened by shallowness.

 

[turnorburn]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

Why would I want to focus my mind on such a thing?

I don't know why, is your mind focused on it.

 

[VaultZero4Me]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

Why would I want to focus my mind on such a thing?

I don't know why, is your mind focused on it.

Its not even a fleeting thought

I assumed you were saying it should be

and if it is, which one should I be concerned about going to? There are so many to choose from ;-)

Pick:

Chinese
Maya
Buddhist
Zoroastrianism
Islam
Hindu
Bahai
Tartarus
or Christian

 

[turnorburn]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

Why would I want to focus my mind on such a thing?

I don't know why, is your mind focused on it.

Its not even a fleeting thought

I assumed you were saying it should be

and if it is, which one should I be concerned about going to? There are so many to choose from ;-)

Pick:

Chinese
Maya
Buddhist
Zoroastrianism
Islam
Hindu
Bahai
Tartarus
or Christian

That's a tough one, you pick...

 

[Christopher]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

We're going to examine the place the Bible calls hell.

If hell is a place, where is its location?

Several years ago a book was published, entitled Beyond Death's Door by Dr. Maurice Rawlings. Dr. Rawlings, a specialist in Internal Medicine and Cardiovascular Disease, resuscitated many people who had been clinically dead. Dr. Rawlings, a devout atheist, "considered all religion "hocus-pocus" and death nothing more than a painless extinction". But something happened in 1977 that brought a dramatic change in the life of Dr. Rawlings! He was resuscitating a man, terrified and screaming - descending down into the flames of hell:
"Each time he regained heartbeat and respiration, the patient screamed, "I am in hell!" He was terrified and pleaded with me to help him.. I was scared to death. . . Then I noticed a genuinely alarmed look on his face. He had a terrified look worse than the expression seen in death! This patient had a grotesque grimace expressing sheer horror! His pupils were dilated, and he was perspiring and trembling - he looked as if his hair was "on end."
Then still another strange thing happened. He said,"Don't you understand? I am in hell. . . Don't let me go back to hell!" . . .the man was serious, and it finally occurred to me that he was indeed in trouble. He was in a panic like I had never seen before."
(Maurice Rawlings, Beyond Death's Door,(Thomas Nelson Inc., 1979) p. 3).
Dr. Rawlings said, no one, who could have heard his screams and saw the look of terror on his face could doubt for a single minute that he was actually in a place called hell!

This isn't proof there's a place called hell. It is only evidence that a dying man, who is obviously going through severe trauma, had an experience. If hell is a place, and you want to prove its existence, provide evidence of its location.

Furthermore, do stories like these match with orthodox beliefs? Is not hell supposed to be a place of eternal torture? Also, Hebrews 9:27 states "...it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment...". Please explain how these stories and orthodox doctrines match up.

The Bible continually warns of a place called hell. There are over 162 references in the New Testament alone which warn of hell. And over 70 of these references were uttered by the Lord Jesus Christ!

In Jesus' speech, as recorded by the gospel writers, the word translated hell is Gehenna. Gehenna is an actual place; it was Jerusalem's garbage dump. Jesus could have been using Gehenna to mean a place were sinners were destroyed, not eternally tortured. I don't care either way, but the point is there are other valid interpretations of Jesus' words.

Besides, the OT only mentions Sheol, the grave.

Be scarred, be very scarred

And this is why I think the idea of Hell is repulsive. I'm supposed to hold the correct theological beliefs, and if get something dreadfully wrong God's going to eternally punish me? It makes God into a petty tyrant; a dictator whose power is held by keeping his subjects in fear. It also keeps people at a low maturity level. Only doing what is "right" out of fear of punishment is the lowest form of morals one can have. It is suitable only for children, criminals, and sociopaths.

I will not let fear determine my life, my beliefs, and my actions.

 

[turnorburn]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

Why am I not surprised? you an atheist an expert in the bible, carry on :

 

[Christopher]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

Why am I not surprised? you an atheist an expert in the bible, carry on :

Do you intend to answer my questions and objections, or just scoff at me?

 

[turnorburn]

No Christopher I don't, for you see to do so would be a complete waste of time. You say you've been there and done that, well the world is filled with lost sheep that haven't. I choose to spend my time saving souls not arguing with one that says he was, and made the decision to openly scorn our savior :

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[Vic C.]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

That's enough, people. It's not conducive to meaningful dialog. :-? Christopher posted a rebuttal to the OP, which should make for a meaningful debate. All disagreements with Christopher can easily be established with Biblical support and without personal stabs, right people? ;-)

 

[Free]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

And this is why I think the idea of Hell is repulsive. I'm supposed to hold the correct theological beliefs, and if get something dreadfully wrong God's going to eternally punish me?

Theologically speaking, every man stands in rebellion to God until they submit to the lordship of Christ and accept his sacrifice. It isn't about getting some theological belief wrong, it's about being in rebellion, separated from God.

It makes God into a petty tyrant; a dictator whose power is held by keeping his subjects in fear.

While there is such a thing as a healthy fear of God, such as a realization of being eternally separated from him and the resulting consequences, that certainly is not the reason one continues in belief of God.

It also keeps people at a low maturity level. Only doing what is "right" out of fear of punishment is the lowest form of morals one can have. It is suitable only for children, criminals, and sociopaths.

Do you speed when driving? Do you drink and drive? How about steal money or rob banks? Why or why not? I'm sure if I continued I could find reason to believe we are all either children, criminals or sociopaths.

What is the highest form of morals?

 

[Christopher]

No Christopher I don't, for you see to do so would be a complete waste of time. You say you've been there and done that, well the world is filled with lost sheep that haven't. I choose to spend my time saving souls not arguing with one that says he was, and made the decision to openly scorn our savior :

In His Service,
turnorburn

Even if you can not convince me, I'm not the only one reading these forums. The point of debating someone, although I'm not debating but discussing, is to convince those watching the debate, not to convince your debate opponent. There are a few "lost sheep" out there that might not accept your message if you will not or can not answer any questions and objections.

 

[Christopher]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

Theologically speaking, every man stands in rebellion to God until they submit to the lordship of Christ and accept his sacrifice. It isn't about getting some theological belief wrong, it's about being in rebellion, separated from God.

That's fine and good, but it presupposes a belief in God, a belief in the lordship of Christ, the belief that Christ's sacrifice needs to be accepted, etc. I don't even believe that God exists, so from my point of view, I cannot be rebelling against God. (Moreover, I don't intend to rebel against God, i.e. I'm not rationalizing rebellion against God away.) I believe that Jesus was just a man, never rose from the dead, is not a lord, and made no sacrific for me. I'm not rejecting these things; I just don't believe in them. So in my case, if Christianity is indeed true, it is believing the wrong things that will damn me.

While there is such a thing as a healthy fear of God, such as a realization of being eternally separated from him and the resulting consequences, that certainly is not the reason one continues in belief of God.

Then we agree on this point. This is why I'm repulsed by this fire and brimstone "gospel", it promotes believing in God because one is afraid of God (and not a reverential awe fear, a selfish fear).

Do you speed when driving? Do you drink and drive? How about steal money or rob banks? Why or why not? I'm sure if I continued I could find reason to believe we are all either children, criminals or sociopaths.

What is the highest form of morals?

That's a good question. The answer depends on the moral/ethical system you subscribe too, but in the end, whatever system you pick, I think my point still holds.

I judge moral questions based on the decision's consequence. Yes, punishment for a crime is a consequence, but there are many others. Focusing only on the punishment (or only on reward) is what I feel is the most primitive/immature morality.

Why don't I speed? (Heh...well I don't drive dangerously.) Because car wrecks are dangerous, they're costly, and they might kill me and those I love. They also bring loss and suffering to ohters involved in the wreck. Last on the list is getting a ticket.

Drink and drive? I value sobriety, maintaing control, not losing the ability to reason, and so I don't like to get drunk. Then there are car wrecks, as I detailed above.

Stealing money and robbing banks? I don't have the need to steal money. Stealing money is the worst way to get wealthy. Of course I don't want to go to prison, because I value freedom.

Regardless, I think that whatever moral system you have, one built on theism and the Bible, or one built on secular principles, that you can come up with better reasons to not commit crimes, reasons better than fearing punishment. I don't think that my point is an "atheistic" one, but one that many theist could hold to. Fear of punishment is completely selfish, and it doesn't promote concern for others.

 

[turnorburn]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

 

[Rick W]

Re: What The Biblle Has The Others Don't...

That's great Christopher. You do what's right, you don't steal or drive fast. In other words you're a good person in your eyes. You'll get what you deserve.
As for me I don't care how "goody goody" I think I am. It's my hope, my faith that in salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ that I don't get what I deserve.
:

Somebody needs to tell Jesus that ...

Fear of punishment is completely selfish, and it doesn't promote concern for others.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.



John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:






I've known someone else to argue the judgment/punishment of God.

Genesis 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Oldest lie in the book.

 

[turnorburn]

Christopher, nobody here wants to see you get into a jam, because we all have. Each one of us has paid our dues, my reward for being stubborn was my wheel chair, and its for certain none of us want to receive a letter like this from you.. :

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?v ... 34d00b4f73

In His Service,
turnorburn