When does a believer receive eternal life?

[ezra]

eternal life is given the moment we get saved.. our true eternal life begins when God calls us home. or maybe i should say experience it to the fullest

 

[ezra]

I can see that they both have merit, one key vulnerability I see with the OSAS position is the assumption that all of the "believe" and "believe in His name" verses, such as those cited in the OP, refer to a specific point in time. One "believes," and that's that.

i agree with this statement

 

[FreeGrace]

No, it is a recognition that both positions have biblical support and that the "true" answer is far from clear, which is why biblical scholars of the highest caliber can be found to support each position.

If the Bible does support diametrically opposed views, then the Bible has serious problems. I cannot accept that. The Bible is inerrant. Man is quite errant.

The "black or white" approach to doctrine is a common one that, IMO, leads to more confusion and divisiveness than light.

Jesus was extremely clear in His teaching on eternal security. It's just that there are some who don't see it that way.

This is famously seen in C. S. Lewis' statement that Jesus was either a "lunatic, liar or Lord." You must accept one of the three, Lewis said; only one can be true.

What Lewis in no way was suggesting is that Jesus was all 3. Or even just 2. And your point only affirms my point, that between OSAS and OSNAS, only 1 view is biblically correct, and the other one is totally incorrect.

Everyone now realizes that this is fallacious because it does not include all the possible alternatives, such as "legend" (meaning the possibility that Jesus never existed at all)

I reject such a "possibility".

that He existed but did not say many of the things attributed to Him, or that what He actually did say was not accurately reported decades after the fact.

Sure. What the blasphemous and infamous "Jesus Seminar" tried to do with Jesus. I'm not buying.

I am not convinced that OSAS and OSNAS, as commonly understood, exhaust the possibilities.

How in the world could there be any other view regarding security? One is either secure, or not.

I am not convinced that both are not to some extent "true."

I don't know what the quote marks around "true" mean. But if both are true, then the Bible is contradicted internally. Which I reject.

Moreover, OSNAS to some extent subsumes OSAS: The status one provisionally obtains when one repents and believes can later be lost.

This is just a statement; an opinion. What did Jesus say about those He gives eternal life? They SHALL NEVER PERISH. How could He have been any more clear?

Since whether I accept the OSAS or OSNAS position will have precisely zero effect on how I live my life, I do not regard the distinction as a Christian essential. It's sort of like Pascal's Wager: If I live as though OSNAS is correct, but OSAS is actually correct, what have I lost?

Since that view denies the clear teaching of Jesus, I'd say rejection of His teaching would have a rather large impact (not positive) on such a one.

(Not that I would have lived my life any differently if I had bet OSAS was correct, which is why I view the debate as mostly Much Ado About Nothing.)

I don't view accurate doctrine as being "much ado about nothing". In fact, Paul wrote "I would not have you ignorant, brethren..." only 4 times in 4 different epistles. He certainly wanted his readers to understand facts and doctrines.

The reality is, the OSNAS position has massive biblical support (as well as in the earliest Christian writings).

Again, if that were true, then the Bible is internally contradicted, since Jesus was clear about WHEN one possesses eternal life from John 5:24, which is WHEN one initially believes, and then He said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

It could not be stated any more clear than that.

So, all that "massive biblical support" really amounts to a lot of misunderstood verses/passages.

One cannot just keep citing the OSAS verses like a parrot and expect to convince anyone.

If there are any verses that actually out and out says that salvation can be lost, please share. So far, no one has come forward with such a verse. What is presented includes a lot of figures of speech, that can be taken a number of ways. But NOTHING plainly stated abourt loss of salvation.

Again without purporting to be a Greek scholar, I did find a good discussion of Greek tenses at http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm. The discussion emphasizes that, in Greek, the primary focus of tense is not "time" but rather "kind of action." The present tense is indeed associated with continuity - progressive or continuous action. Someone may want to address how the "believe" and "believe in His name" verses are to be understood in the Greek, a project that I decline to undertake.

To quote further from this same link,
"For action happening at the present time, only the 'present tense' is available. Whether the writer is wishing in any particular instance to emphasis the progressive aspect of the verb or just indicate a simple occurrence at the present time, there is only one choice of tense to use. Therefore, one must consider the context and the basic meaning of the verb to determine whether the emphasis is on the continuous aspect of the action or merely on the present time element. It may be that no real emphasis on progressive action is intended but, for a statement requiring the element of present time, there is no choice but to use the 'present tense'. (Of course outside the indicative mood the emphasis almost certainly will be on the progressive element of the verb, since the aorist tense could readily be employed)."
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm

Notice the underlined words. Further, consider Eph 1:13-14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

In v.13 we find the aorist tense in "when you believed", also translated in other versions as "having believed". This clearly refers to a past tense event or action. And the result is being placed "in Christ", "sealed with the Holy Spirit", who is "a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance" as "God's possession".

Again, clearly a passage about eternal security.

The issue is not, as you suggest, "There is no sense that the present tense is used to indicate that the results of present or current action will continue ONLY AS LONG AS the current action continues." I am not talking about the current action of "belief" having immediate "results" that "continue" only as long as the "belief" continues and that will be "lost" if the belief does not continue.

I think my point was missed. The crux of the OSNAS group is that the present tense means the results of the present tense action must continue IN ORDER for the results to continue.

iow, one is saved by believing. However, if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. This is a false notion.

The present tense does not include that notion.

I am talking about BELIEF ITSELF being the continuous action - there are no "results" to be "lost" unless and until that action is completed.

The action is completed at the moment when one believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He died personally for him/her and gives eternal life to believers. Recall "having believed" in Eph 1:13 and the guaranteed results.

THERE SIMPLY IS NO BELIEF at all until the continuous action constituting "belief" is completed.

Who said the present tense for 'believe' requires this "continuous action". Go back to my link and re-read the underlined words.

One would have to prove from a scholarly perspective that all the present tense uses of 'believe' include progressive action.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"FreeGrace said:
... So, what does the Bible say about it?

John 3:15 - that everyone who believes (present tense) may have (subjunctive) eternal life in him."

My words and highlights in blue.
True belief is the way, the truth and life of Christ. Not just in head, but in all thought and action.

I used "bible study tools" on line for verses. The subjunctive mood is interesting. But the point about the subjunctive mood is that IF the action is completed, then the result is guaranteed.

So, from Jn 3:15, IF one believes, THEN one WILL HAVE eternal life. Which is what the present tense verses say as well.

 

[FreeGrace]

eternal life is given the moment we get saved.. our true eternal life begins when God calls us home. or maybe i should say experience it to the fullest

Eggzacktly, Ezra! Well said! Thanks.

 

[Hermit]

I said:
"FreeGrace said:
... So, what does the Bible say about it?

John 3:15 - that everyone who believes (present tense) may have (subjunctive) eternal life in him."

I used "bible study tools" on line for verses. The subjunctive mood is interesting. But the point about the subjunctive mood is that IF the action is completed, then the result is guaranteed.

So, from Jn 3:15, IF one believes, THEN one WILL HAVE eternal life. Which is what the present tense verses say as well.

Whatever you believe, will be you, as a gift to Christ.
Ask yourself, "What other beliefs will I be bringing to the table?"

 

[FreeGrace]

Whatever you believe, will be you, as a gift to Christ.
Ask yourself, "What other beliefs will I be bringing to the table?"

I'm not sure what your question refers to. Could you clarify, please? Thanks.

 

[Hermit]

Whatever you believe, will be you, as a gift to Christ.
Ask yourself, "What other beliefs will I be bringing to the table?"

I'm not sure what your question refers to. Could you clarify, please? Thanks.

Whatever you believe, regardless if it is true or not, will be who you are. When it is time for your soul to bare itself to Christ, what beliefs will you have that is true; for only the true is of any value.

My concern is that you do not think that you need to do anything else to be saved. But we still need to carry our cross daily. That is to repent our sins and ask for forgiveness, like Christ did, carrying his cross, for all sins on earth.

Luke 9:23-24
And he (Jesus) said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it."

To lose one's own life (old man to sin) is to carry one's own cross daily. To carry the burdens of being wrong, humbled, repentance, making amends, doing right, etc.

 

[gr8grace3]

My concern is that you do not think that you need to do anything else to be saved. But we still need to carry our cross daily. That is to repent our sins and ask for forgiveness, like Christ did, carrying his cross, for all sins on earth.

My concern is the very subtle, tricky lie of satan to get believers into a maintenance program for their salvation.......religion. It's a 'good' life, full of many 'good' works and even quitting many overt sins. But it is all for naught in the end because their MOTIVE was wrong. And Is a life of EVIL in Gods eyes. Looks like a good life to many of us, but God calls it filthy rags.

Heb 5:14~~New American Standard Bible
But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice(constant practice) have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

The good and evil in this verse is divine good(working through the Spirit) and evil( human good working through the flesh.)

We don't follow His plan for our lives to maintain salvation or do extra credit to get salvation........We follow His plan for our lives to glorify Him in His grace of saving a sinner like me.

It is easy for us to see that lying is not good and not lying is good. But it is very difficult for us to see if we are feeding the poor through our flesh(maintaining or gaining salvation through our 'good' works) or through the filling of the Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

Whatever you believe, regardless if it is true or not, will be who you are. When it is time for your soul to bare itself to Christ, what beliefs will you have that is true; for only the true is of any value.

OK, thanks. I agree. For those who believe that salvation can be lost will bare that basically unbelieving soul to Christ, who promised everyone He gives eternal life that they shall never perish (John 10:28). Which they didn't believe.

My concern is that you do not think that you need to do anything else to be saved.

I'm happy to put that concern away. There is nothing else to be saved. Christ died for my sins personally and completely. And I believe that He gives me eternal life on that basis of belief, and He has promised those He gives eternal life that they shall never perish.

But we still need to carry our cross daily.

Yes, sir. God elected believers for service.

That is to repent our sins and ask for forgiveness, like Christ did, carrying his cross, for all sins on earth.

I wasn't aware that Christ repented of sins and asked for forgiveness. Which text indicates that?

Luke 9:23-24
And he (Jesus) said to all, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it."

To lose one's own life (old man to sin) is to carry one's own cross daily. To carry the burdens of being wrong, humbled, repentance, making amends, doing right, etc.

Right.

 

[MarkT]

There are only 3 possibilities regarding when a believer receives eternal life:
1. when they first believe
2. some time during their life on earth
3. at the end of their life, when they enter eternity

Some argue that 1 Peter 1:9 indicates that eternal life is received at the end of their life. "for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls."

If salvation and eternal life are synonymous, and most would agree that they are, then we can't really view anyone as saved during their life on earth, if "end of your faith" is synonymous with "end of your life". But it should be quite obvious that the 2 phrases are not equivalent at all.

So Arminians cannot view themselves as saved during their life. And one cannot lose what one does not possess. So the argument about losing salvation becomes irrelevant.

Are there any verses that indicate that eternal life is given during some point after initially believing in Christ? No, there are not. So we can eliminate #2 and #3 straight off.

So, that leaves #1, when they first believe.

So, what does the Bible say about it?

John 3:15 - that everyone who believes (present tense) may have (subjunctive) eternal life in him.

This verse indicates from the subjunctive that not everyone will believe, but of those who do, they will have eternal life in them.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes (present tense) in him shall not perish but HAVE (present tense) eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me HAS (present tense) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes (present tense) HAS (present tense) eternal life.

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given (aorist tense) us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe (present tense) in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you HAVE (present tense) eternal life.

What is clear from these verses is that those who believe possess eternal life. 1 John 5:11 clearly indicates that eternal life is something already given, by the aorist tense, which is generally a past completed action.

Finally, Jesus tells us that it is He who gives eternal life: John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

So, it's clear from Scripture that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN one initially believes. Not some time after that.

Therefore, one is eternally saved WHEN one believes in Christ.

When he understands and begins to feed on the words of life.

 

[for_his_glory]

Please explain the present tense of HAS and HAVE in the verses in the OP about WHEN one possesses eternal life.

In those verses, there is no mention of a promise of getting eternal life, but actually HAVING, or possessing eternal life.


Yet, Jesus was very clear about WHEN He gives eternal life; WHEN one believes in Him is WHEN they possess it.

And, He was very clear about those He gives eternal life. They shall never perish. John 10:28

has the (promise)..............have the (promise)

Eternal life is a promise from God to all who will believe on the name of Jesus until He returns for His Bride. Many will fall away, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, losing the promise of eternal life with the Father.

2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

John 3:15 may have, but does not say at the moment we believe (promise)

John 3:16 but, a conjunction that means will have and again says nothing about at the moment (promise)

John 5:24 conditional to the (promise)

John 6:47 conditional on believe has (promise) of eternal life

1 John 5:11 (promise) conditional in the life of Christ to all who will believe

1 John 5:13 (promise) have eternal life as long as one believes

 

[chessman]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 Now we ask you, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to him, that you not be easily shaken from your composure, nor be troubled either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter alleged to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has arrived. Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and who exalts himself over every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God.​

Proclaiming oneself to be exalted to a co-Savior with God is a dangerous message.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"There are only 3 possibilities regarding when a believer receives eternal life:
1. when they first believe
2. some time during their life on earth
3. at the end of their life, when they enter eternity"

When he understands and begins to feed on the words of life.

So, is this a vote for #2?

 

[Winter Tapioca]

eternal life is given the moment we get saved.. our true eternal life begins when God calls us home. or maybe i should say experience it to the fullest

Amen!
No one can take us from God's grace.

 

[FreeGrace]

has the (promise)..............have the (promise)

Eternal life is a promise from God to all who will believe on the name of Jesus until He returns for His Bride. Many will fall away, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, losing the promise of eternal life with the Father.

2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

John 3:15 may have, but does not say at the moment we believe (promise)

John 3:16 but, a conjunction that means will have and again says nothing about at the moment (promise)

John 5:24 conditional to the (promise)

John 6:47 conditional on believe has (promise) of eternal life

1 John 5:11 (promise) conditional in the life of Christ to all who will believe

1 John 5:13 (promise) have eternal life as long as one believes

Thank you for this great example of "explaining away" these verses.

However, since the verses are quite clear about presently possessing eternal life for those who believe, the claim that "says nothing about at the moment" is incorrect.

It absolutely does imply that one possesses eternal life the moment they believe, because that is what Jesus said: those who believe presently possess eternal life.

Now, the only legitimate opposition to the claim that eternal life is possessed the moment one believes is to provide just one verse that clearly and plainly teaches that Jesus gives eternal life sometime AFTER initial belief. Is there such a verse?

If not, and I propose that there are not, then we can rest assurred that at the moment of initial belief, one possesses eternal life.

 

[Hermit]

Free Grace, you and I see and read things differently. That is because we carry different beliefs which influence and filter what we see and read. That is how it is with everyone we meet. At this time, there is no point in me repeating what I have already explained because you are seeing it differently.

As an example of what I mean; Christ had the same problem even with his disciples because Christ was referencing life from a spiritual perspective and his disciples were still referencing life from a flesh perspective.

I am not saying that you are too, but we do see things differently based on our collective beliefs.

 

[for_his_glory]

repeat

 

[for_his_glory]

Thank you for this great example of "explaining away" these verses.

However, since the verses are quite clear about presently possessing eternal life for those who believe, the claim that "says nothing about at the moment" is incorrect.

It absolutely does imply that one possesses eternal life the moment they believe, because that is what Jesus said: those who believe presently possess eternal life.

Now, the only legitimate opposition to the claim that eternal life is possessed the moment one believes is to provide just one verse that clearly and plainly teaches that Jesus gives eternal life sometime AFTER initial belief. Is there such a verse?

If not, and I propose that there are not, then we can rest assurred that at the moment of initial belief, one possesses eternal life.

I'm not explaining any scripture away, but trying to show it is a promise from God that all who will remain in Christ and Christ in them receive the promise of eternal life as long as they remain in Christ. It was a promise in the beginning of salvation and will be kept until the day Christ returns. Many that claim Christ we also denounce Christ when the son of perdition (false prophet) comes and deceives the nations and many will take its mark believing the lying wonders and false teachings.

 

[ezra]

ever since the beginning of time man has tried to improve on God plan of salvation.. when in fact we just take the scriptures at face value john 3:16 says we have everlasting life then Big john as i call him says 1 John 5:12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God,so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14 And this is the confidence that we have before Him: If we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.… so why not just settle this yes if we are saved we have eternal life paul wrote the free gift Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. so you see in my way of thinking i just accept it by faith i have eternal life .... certainly there is a false belief ..i heard it said this way many are like 13 inches away from going to heaven.. you see there is roughly 13 inches from the heart to the head. many have eternal life in their head not in the heart Romans 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

but we do see things differently based on our collective beliefs.

i hear this all the time as the pastor was preaching this morning he mentioned how the churches was in competition against each other . instead of working together