MEC - For ease of keeping track - and responding (on my part) my responses in RED.
Mutz,
I have NEVER stated that it IS for all. But it most certainly has been OFFERED to all. That there will be many, (most), that are TOO 'caught up in the world' to SEE what has been offered does NOT negate the offer.
Alright one question here. What, scriptually, leads you to say that salvation is offered to ALL.
I CANNOT believe that what we are here for is to simply 'look out for our own souls'. For we ARE our brothers keepers. If I thought for a second that others were NOT able to be 'influenced' by that which we have to offer, I would 'give up' and just 'let it go'. But the love that has been placed into my heart would NEVER allow me to believe that 'others' don't have a CHANCE.
Two things here. Yes we are our brother’s keeper. But those in the world ARE NOT our brothers. Secondly, yes the love that is in my heart CONFIRMS that WE are brothers but no matter how much compassion we have for the ‘lost’ we both need to remember that it is God who elects, draws and saves. True, those who are to be saved must hear the gospel and you and I are God’s servants to this end for some but we can never BE the God who alone elects, draws and saves.
Mutz, some folks will NEVER understand LOVE. They will NEVER be able to accept it or offer it. These will NEVER understand what has been offered. And MANY of these fill the weekly pews of impotent churches that offer NOTHING other than 'false hope'.
Agreed
But we ARE to offer example so that those around us are ABLE to see. We ARE to offer testimony to 'prick' the hearts of those that ARE LOST. We are to offer teaching so that those that are lost MAY be found.
Yes – but we need to discern the difference between the good soil that will bring forth fruit and everything else that never can. We need to be led of the Spirit.
I KNOW that the choice that I made WAS a 'concious' decision. At the point of being 'born again' """""I""""" HAD to LET GO. Manipulated BY God? Quite possible. I do NOT know the exact mechanisms of God's WORK. Did God MAKE me accept Him? I don't THINK so. I WANTED God in my life. Begged God to 'come into my life'. Offered? Most DEFINITELY. Was I ABLE to be 'born again' of MY OWN accord? Rediculous to even THINK in such a manner. Am I 'worthy' of what has been offered? NO WAY. The questions of WHY or HOW I CANNOT answer. But that a 'sinner' such as myself CAN be 'born again' is WITHOUT doubt.
True and I can say the same, WITHOUT doubt. But your concept of ‘acceptance’ of God is awry. You are looking at it from ‘mans’ perspective.
Now, could I alter the 'work' that has been done in my life? Could I 'turn my back' on the truth? I have been TOLD by God and His Son and His apostles that I MUST be WILLING to CONTINUE in my walk and I am WELL able to take ANY particular path that I CHOOSE, IF I do NOT submit myself to the WILL of God through The Holy Spirit and allow THEIR guidance, I am quite ABLE to follow WHATSOEVER I CHOOSE.
Yes – true. Those who have been given the gift of life (who are God’s children) CAN choose what they do with the gift, since they are now alive. But not so, the DEAD.
Can I WORK my way into 'life eternal'? Hardly. But I can CERTAIN be the instrument of MY OWN DOOM.
Yes – true.
The 'book of life' to which you refer has NOTHING to do with FORCING WHAT one will CHOSE or refuse. God KNEW the choices that we would MAKE before our very conception. This does NOT negate that the CHOICE of WHAT we will accept or refuse WAS the basis for our names being written or NOT.
The book of life has nothing to do with whether we ‘choose’ or ‘refuse’ for it is impossible to refuse life.
And who is to say that something YOU or I DO or SAY may or may NOT have the impact NEEDED to PUSH one in the direction that made it POSSIBLE for their NAMES to be written so many years ago?
The bottom line is, your name was written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. It was impossible for you to refuse life.
The 'elect' are NOT some 'special' individuals CHOSEN from the foundation. The Elect are those that God KNEW would BE from the foundation of this earth.
I don’t understand what you are saying here.
If what is offered through this PRE- Selected theology were TRUE, then it is an UTTER waste of time to offer testimony. It is an UTTER waste of time for God to offer the gift of TEACHING. It is an utter WASTE of time for prophecy.
Not so, these things are for those whom God has appointed for life. His children.
No, my friend, you won't get me to 'turn away' so easy.
And I don’t intend to try to turn you away from that which God has called you to. What I am endeavouring to do is show you that we have been given something VERY precious and we need to be careful what we do with it. God would not have us cast pearls before swine.
which leads me to one that will offer some controversy. My next thread. Let's just SEE how much the Spirit HAS to offer to the children of God. And let us see if the 'children of God' are even able to hear His voice.............
Now, let me ask this: Do YOU believe that Saul was JUST 'some dude' walking down the road that was chosen RANDOMLY? Or do you REALIZE that there was 'something special' that was SEEN in him that made it POSSIBLE for him to BECOME what he became? And, do you believe that there HAVE been others that offered the SAME perception of POSSIBILITY that 'for some reason' just didn't LIVE UP to their CALLING? Or, to put it more simply: Do you believe that Paul could have simply 'turned away' from Christ and just continued about his business?
Paul was not just ‘some dude’. He also was chosen to fulfil the calling of God. A vessel of honor if you like. I believe that Paul could have ‘turned away’, not at the point that he was born of God, but as God’s son - and by God’s grace he ‘worked out his salvation with fear and trembling’. And BTW I know of other ‘Pauls’ living today. Men who have been raised by God to fulfil his calling. Men who are only too aware of the frailty of the flesh which I believe God uses as an instrument for their perfecting – to His glory.
The story of Jonah is a PRIME example of JUST such a situation. The REASON that Jonah was EVEN mentioned is that he REFUSED to follow God's will. HE changed. But HOW MANY do you suppose were JUST LIKE HIM that did NOT change? For he WAS a man that followed God UNTIL God commanded him to do that which he did NOT WANT to do. God DOES punish those He loves and so it was with Jonah. But Jonah could have simply been 'spit out by the fish' and GOT BACK on ANOTHER boat and headed in the OPPOSITE direction than that which he had been LED by God. He had JUST DONE THIS VERY THING.
Come-on MEC. This was a completely different dispensation. The Holy Spirit had not been given and so no-one had been born of His spirit. Remember the Israelites were God’s children. He chose them (not the other way around). And as God’s children (as those who are God’s children today) choice was theirs to invoke.
How many times have EACH of us made the EXACT SAME mistake? And who can say that today or tommorrow we may JUST AS LIKELY REPEAT one of the SAME MISTAKES we've made in the past. So too is our ability to 'turn away' from the TRUTH. We have TONS of examples of those that were GIVEN the TRUTH to begin with yet ALLOWED themselves to be 'turned away from it'.
Again, as His children, God has given us the choice. And I gotta tell you, I’ve made many mistakes in my life. There’s a scripture that I like though. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Satan is continually working to subvert those that LOVE God. Hoping to subvert their LOVE of God into a LOVE OF HIM.
Yep – we need to be aware of the wiles of Satan.
I already offered this Mutz: Why do suppose that it is written that God will HAVE to 'cut the days short in order to PROTECT EVEN THE VERY ELECT? From what you have offered previously, you believe that SOME CANNOT be 'led astray' because their names are in the 'book of life'. I believe that to serve in 'fear and trembling' plainly points out that the 'book' is ABLE to BE altered.
Yes of course it is possible for them to be led astray. But they have already been made God’s children. They have entered into God’s kingdom and as ‘eternal’ beings the LIFE that they have been given is for eternity. And so, some will inherit eternal reward and others eternal damnation.
And let me ask this: Is it NOT possible that God CAN alter what is written IN the book which HE created? We KNOW that God IS able to alter the timelines of prophecy. We KNOW that men have had the ability to ALTER God's decisions. Is this 'book of life' UN-alterable? I don't know one way or the other. But I can say this: People change. For the good and for the bad. Some are changed by God and some by Satan. MOST are changed by WHAT'S IN their HEARTS, one way or the other.
I know that the names of those who have been written in the book of life from the foundation of the earth WILL be given life. As for those whose names are to be blotted out of the book, I know not when this will happen. God has not revealed this to me.
And WHO is to say that there weren't names written in this book BUT CONTINUE to BE written even at this VERY MOMENT. Awful lot of 'pre-speculation' concerning what LITTLE is written about this 'book of life'.
Revelation is one thing. Speculation is another.
My God loves EVERY speck of His creation. That is WHY He created it. That there are parts of His creation that would CHOOSE to refuse Him hurts Him DEEPLY. For it would be IMPOSSIBLE for it to BE any other way. And HOW do I KNOW this? God IS LOVE. And BEING love does NOT allow Him to HATE anything that He has created. He did NOT create sin except in the lives of men. And then only through the forbidding of it. Satan introduced lies and sin into the lives of men. God DOES hate sin.
I would say your comments here are born out of a love for God and love and compassion for others which is the fruit of the Spirit that dwells within you. And you love much because you have been forgiven much. However, our responses to God’s love cannot fathom the full extent of God’s plan of salvation for man. Scripture plainly tells us that God loves one and hates another. He chooses one and despises another. He draws one and not another. He makes one vessel for honor and one for dishonor. He opens the eyes and ears of one and not another. He hardens the heart of one and not another.
So, I implore you – don’t get sucked into the rhetoric of the religious.
We have the words written in Genesis. Each day of creation was preceeded by; 'and it was GOOD'. And when we read the sixth day, "it was VERY GOOD". So the CREATION was NOT something that God could HATE. For out of His OWN mouth we have the offering that 'it was GOOD or VERY GOOD'. Now, that there have been MANY that have 'turned away' from truth does NOT negate that FACT that the purpose of 'creation' WAS LOVE.
Yes of course it was Good. And even VERY Good. Everything that God made was GOOD. In fact it was perfect. But then sin entered in. Do you think that God has just been going with the flow since creation? NO. God has had a plan. So glorious a plan that it was all set in place before the world began. The universe is part of the plan. The earth and all that is in it is part of the plan. Every person whom God has chosen as His servant is part of the plan. And of course His son is part of the plan. And every part of God’s creation has been looking forward to the culmination of His plan which I believe is fast drawing to a conclusion.
And if the 'book of life' was a WAY of 'preselecting', how is it that EACH time a soul is saved the 'angels themselves rejoice'? Why would anyone rejoice over a decision that was made BEFORE the foundation of this earth?
Again MEC, please consider what is written in scripture. You have quoted from a parable. And what do the parables describe? The kingdom of heaven!! Look at the scripture that you have taken this from – Luke 15?
It contains three parables.
The first is of the lost sheep. Tell me MEC. Did the sheep belong to the shepherd before it was lost? Yes!
The second is about the lost coin. Now tell me, did the coin belong to the woman before it was lost. Again Yes!
And the last parable is about the prodigal son. Tell me again – because I want to make this point as strongly as I can. Did the son belong to the father before he went away? Yes!
And you have quoted a verse which is taken from these parables – and it speaks in like manner for both the lost sheep and the coin: “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.â€Â
IN THE SAME WAY! Now do I need to speak of repentance? - for this is not speaking of one who does not already belong to the shepherd, the woman, or the father. These three parables are in harmony. The rejoicing is not for someone UNKNOWN but for the repentance of one WHO IS ALREADY KNOWN and who is now restored.
No Mutz, I don't BELIEVE that I'm 'kicking' anything other than the hearts of those that refuse to LISTEN to that 'wee voice' crying out to them to LET God INTO their hearts. Allow HIM to 'make the changes' necessary for us to PLEASE Him and our neighbors. And this is DONE through GIVING and NOT taking. But the responsibility IS our OWN. If we CHOOSE to refuse then God has NO CHOICE but to allow us to 'take the path' that we follow. He does NOT want those that He MUST force to LOVE. For this is IMPOSSIBLE. For one CANNOT force the UNDERSTANDING of LOVE. Either one is ABLE to have their eyes and hearts opened, or they are NOT. This 'determinant factor' is NOT up to ME to discern. Only to accept and offer in return that which has been revealed to ME. Whether it is accepted is relatively irrelevant other than the sorrow that one feels in their heart EACH and every time that they witness those that REFUSE.
Oh my goodness – I better not get started on this any more - Nuff said for now.
I love you Bro
Ed
MEC