When we die. PT 2

[JM]

A poll.

 

[Judy]

2 Cor. 5:8. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Luke 23:42. Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.'' 43. And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.''

 

[JM]

Below is a link to an article by Bullinger, I found it interesting.

http://www.heavendwellers.com/do_you_ha ... l_soul.htm

 

[Elhanan's Nephew]

Here's another by Dr. Bullinger A Refreshing Study on the Resurrection

 

[JM]

Here's another by Dr. Bullinger A Refreshing Study on the Resurrection

You know what, I stop in the local Bible bookstore to order a copy of Bullinger's Companion Bible and while there I sat and read through some of his notes (in was a hard cover and I wanted leather) and found that Dake's notes in the O.T. had a simlar ring to them. Latter I found out that Dake owned and used both the Scofield and Companion Bible and was greatly influanced by both. I had never heard of Bullinger or the Companion Bible until this past week, thank God for Christian fellowship.

 

[Bick]

When we die

Jason: your question is too limited.

I vote for "that when I die, nothing is me is alive until I'm resurrected."

Bick

 

[guibox]

2 Cor. 5:8. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Judy, apparently you would rather study this one verse eisegetically instead of looking at the context. If you read the previous 7 verses, you would see that Paul is speaking of the resurrection here (especially when you link it with 1 Corinthians 15). His desire is to not be left 'unclothed' i.e, 'dead', but to 'put on immortality' to be clothed in the heavenly house.

He is not speaking about some 'soul' that has departed from the body, he is talking about the body that will not decay. This is the body of immortality spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

To be absent from the body and present with the Lord means putting on the spiritual body received at the resurrection, not that my 'soul goes straight to heaven. To interpret it that way is to make the bible say what it doesn't say and to blatantly contradict itself by ignorance of context.

 

[SputnikBoy]

According to the Bible: with one or two exceptions, ALL who have died since Adam are still in their graves awaiting the resurrection. This includes Paul.

 

[skylar]

well what about the people that go to hell

 

[skylar]

well what about the people that go to hell

 

[guibox]

well what about the people that go to hell

The only 'hell' that people go to when they die is merely translated as 'the grave' which is Sheol or Hades. Also note that both wicked AND righteous all go to Sheol/Hades at death.

The error is that people take the end time, eternal punishment 'hell' and apply it to when they die (i,e, when the wicked die, they go straight to hell where they are punished for eternity in hell fire). In other words, my wicked step mother is burning in flames as we speak.

THIS IS FALSE

Why?


Because the English word 'hell' is used for ALL Greek and Hebrew words as a blanket meaning.

Sheol/Hades is not the same as Gehenna (which is the fire of punishment that the wicked receive). Gehenna is not received at death but at the end of time when the final executive judgement is given (Revelation 20)

This midieval belief of when you die you go to the fires of hell is false and due to the poor rendering of the English 'hell'.

Want more proof of this error?

Midieval belief (and most likely many today as well) had the demons torturing sinners in hell. There is one use of the word hell describing the demons being sent to hell. Unfortunately, the word here is 'Tartaros' which is basically the unseen realm of where the demons are.

However, many have falselylumped this meaning in with Sheol/Hades and Gehenna due to the English 'hell'.

Sheol is not Gehenna which is not Tartaros which is not Hades...They are all different

So now you have the traditional view of hell...

When a wicked person dies, he goes straight to hell with the demons where they are burnt with fire forever and ever

WRONG

This is what it would sound like with the original language...

When a wicked person dies, he goes straight to Hades with the demons in Tartaros where they are in Gehenna.

Do you see the error?

 

[Bick]

When I die?

JM, your questions are too limited. You need a third question:

When I die I cease to exist (except in the mind of God), until I am resurrected.

That is what I believe the Scriptures teach.

Bick

 

[mutzrein]

That'll be the day :

 

[Fnerb]

It was my understanding that you are judged upon death, there is no "purgatory". However, we will await the final resurrection (Judgement Day) when our soul will be reunited with our then glorified and sin free bodies.

 

[guibox]

It was my understanding that you are judged upon death, there is no "purgatory". However, we will await the final resurrection (Judgement Day) when our soul will be reunited with our then glorified and sin free bodies.

The problem with that Fnerb, is that the scriptures do not support ONE IOTA the concept of 'body/soul' reunification. It is the whole man that was created, lives, dies and is resurrected to eternal life.

I encourage you to really read closely and logically 1 Corinthians 15. Paul clearly states that without the resurrection of the body there is no eternal life at all for mankind. Those who have died will remain dead and have 'perished'. Paul also says that as all men die, so in Christ shall all be made alive. This is eternal life! When does this happen? "But each man in his own order: Christ the first fruits, afterward, they that are Christ's at His coming". Eternal life that was promised by Christ for thsoe who believe is only realized at the resurrection and not at my physical death.

All of what Paul is saying is an impossibility if the eternal essence of me is alive in heaven immediately when my 'shell' body perishes.

 

[Fnerb]

Hmm...I've never really dug into this subject.

One of the main thoughts I had was that once you die, your soul is no longer bound by time and enters eternity. Therefore your soul has no reference of time and from that perspective the day of death and the final Judgment Day are one in the same...

 

[cyberjosh]

Judy, apparently you would rather study this one verse eisegetically instead of looking at the context. If you read the previous 7 verses, you would see that Paul is speaking of the resurrection here (especially when you link it with 1 Corinthians 15). His desire is to not be left 'unclothed' i.e, 'dead', but to 'put on immortality' to be clothed in the heavenly house.

He is not speaking about some 'soul' that has departed from the body, he is talking about the body that will not decay. This is the body of immortality spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

However, Paul speaks of putting on immortality presently. Its just like how we are promised eternal life in the future with God but we experience it and are commanded to walk in it presently. How would you fit that into Paul's arguement? Paul seems to also be talking about putting on the "new man here" the regenerated self which will survive past our physical death.

 

[cyberjosh]

The only 'hell' that people go to when they die is merely translated as 'the grave' which is Sheol or Hades. Also note that both wicked AND righteous all go to Sheol/Hades at death.

The error is that people take the end time, eternal punishment 'hell' and apply it to when they die (i,e, when the wicked die, they go straight to hell where they are punished for eternity in hell fire). In other words, my wicked step mother is burning in flames as we speak.

THIS IS FALSE

Why?


Because the English word 'hell' is used for ALL Greek and Hebrew words as a blanket meaning.

Sheol/Hades is not the same as Gehenna (which is the fire of punishment that the wicked receive). Gehenna is not received at death but at the end of time when the final executive judgement is given (Revelation 20)

This midieval belief of when you die you go to the fires of hell is false and due to the poor rendering of the English 'hell'.

I'm sorry to say but I have to disagree. Gehenna and Sheol are refering to the same place (or atleast in a one-sided relationship - Gehenna is part of Sheol, while Sheol as a whole is not Gehenna) and use the same imagery. Gehenna is a picturesque metaphor for the bad part of Sheol (the good part being Paradise/Abraham's Bosom) by drawing from the imagery of the burning trash in the Valley of Hinnom. The word Gehenna evokes more imagery than it does acting as a proper term/designation. But Gehenna elaborates and specifies the section of Sheol being refered to.

I once made a long post on the imagery involved in Gehenna. If you want it I can try to dig it up for you. But basically it was the trash and the worms that bred in it that caused the Jews to set it on fire in the valley of Hinnom and it never quite burned it all, thus the idea of eternal burning.

But look at the imagery of the King in Isaiah chapter 14 going into Sheol. Now we know Sheol has a good and bad part but here it elaborates on Sheol by mentioning the agonizing worms (the image of Gehenna):

9Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;
It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10"They will all respond and say to you,
'Even you have been made weak as we,
You have become like us.
11'Your pomp and the music of your harps
Have been brought down to Sheol;
Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you
And worms are your covering
(Isaiah 14:9-11)

Jesus used the same imagery when speaking of Gehenna:

"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell [Gehenna], where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED." (Mark 9:47-48)

Want more proof of this error?

Midieval belief (and most likely many today as well) had the demons torturing sinners in hell. There is one use of the word hell describing the demons being sent to hell. Unfortunately, the word here is 'Tartaros' which is basically the unseen realm of where the demons are.

However, many have falselylumped this meaning in with Sheol/Hades and Gehenna due to the English 'hell'.

Sheol is not Gehenna which is not Tartaros which is not Hades...They are all different

The Tartaros bit may be stretching it a bit. The reason that word is not focused on much in the study of "hell" is because it is only used once in the Bible, and it may refer to the "abyss" or "chasm". It is obscure in origin but I will concede that it does not refer to the same place as the human inhabitants of Gehenna (the real "hell").

 

[guibox]

I'm sorry to say but I have to disagree. Gehenna and Sheol are refering to the same place (or atleast in a one-sided relationship - Gehenna is part of Sheol, while Sheol as a whole is not Gehenna) and use the same imagery. Gehenna is a picturesque metaphor for the bad part of Sheol (the good part being Paradise/Abraham's Bosom) by drawing from the imagery of the burning trash in the Valley of Hinnom.

This is the problem with taking a symbolic parable and making a concrete theology of it. The area of 'Sheol' you are speaking of is labeled as 'Hades' and not 'Gehenna'. Actually the entire passage takes place in Hades. Gehenna is nowhere mentioned. Hades and Sheol are the same places but are not the same as Gehenna.

Gehenna is associated with the lake of fire. Both death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire 'gehenna' at the end of time. Hades is NOT gehenna and neither is Sheol.

I once made a long post on the imagery involved in Gehenna. If you want it I can try to dig it up for you. But basically it was the trash and the worms that bred in it that caused the Jews to set it on fire in the valley of Hinnom and it never quite burned it all, thus the idea of eternal burning.

But look at the imagery of the King in Isaiah chapter 14 going into Sheol. Now we know Sheol has a good and bad part but here it elaborates on Sheol by mentioning the agonizing worms (the image of Gehenna):

Quote:
9Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;
It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10"They will all respond and say to you,
'Even you have been made weak as we,
You have become like us.
11'Your pomp and the music of your harps
Have been brought down to Sheol;
Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you
And worms are your covering
(Isaiah 14:9-11)


Jesus used the same imagery when speaking of Gehenna:

"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell [Gehenna], where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED." (Mark 9:47-48).

The problem is that Sheol occurs at death. Christ and John make it plain that gehenna is an end time judgment where folks are judged while alive, and not dead in the grave. Where one goes when they die and where one is punished are two different places in the Bible.

As far as trying to link the two concepts together based on these passages...The fact of the matter is, is that the symbology of worms means 'death and decay'. Whether it be in the grave or at the end of time when fire destroys is not relevant. You cannot make them the same thing simply because worms is used symbolically to denote death and destruction. Both of which occur at two different time periods and events.


There is no linguistic reason to make 'gehenna' and 'Sheol' mean the same thing and you'd be the first one that I'm aware of to do so.

However, we digress from the original post...

 

[cyberjosh]

This is the problem with taking a symbolic parable and making a concrete theology of it. The area of 'Sheol' you are speaking of is labeled as 'Hades' and not 'Gehenna'. Actually the entire passage takes place in Hades. Gehenna is nowhere mentioned. Hades and Sheol are the same places but are not the same as Gehenna.

Gehenna is associated with the lake of fire. Both death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire 'gehenna' at the end of time. Hades is NOT gehenna and neither is Sheol.

Yes, I know. Gehenna is in Sheol/Hades. It is part of it. And if we can take Jesus' parable of Lazarus to reflect real places in Sheol then Sheol is comprised of a good side, bad side (currently suffering - wishing to have a drop of water)) and the Chasm in between (Tartaros - presumably).

The Lake of fire is also a seperate part set apart for judgement on the last day. I do not believe this is Gehenna. But at any rate I do believe there is some suffering presently.

For the Jews understanding of Hades/Sheol look at this short discourse from Josephus concerning the matter: An Extract Out Of Josephus's Discourse To The Greeks Concerning Hades.