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Robert,
1. How do you believe Israel should respond to the rest of the the Middle East?
2. What in your eyes justifies the death of an innocent child or civillian regardless of their religious beliefs?
3. Why, as Christians, are we told to forgive those who have done us harm?
4. What's the opposite of forgiveness?
5. What is greater in God's kingdom?
A. The servent
B. The self rightous.

Again, Israel has the right to defend herself, but that in no means justifies the death of innocent people or holds them unaccountable for their wrongs. To lead by example is to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord. Period.
 
I truly hope people will take the time to go back and see the videos I gave links to. They are truly eye opening.

As far as Israel's future is concerned:

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The sun is still shining and the moon and the stars are still in the sky.

God has not cast off His people Israel.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Jeremiah 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

Jesus said:

Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The Jews will cry out unto their rejected Messiah and I believe that it is very likely that the day they will is not far off. :biggrin

God bless Israel!
 
I am glad that we are getting into the Scriptures in respect to this matter.

Is Romans 11:25-29, is Paul really referring to the nation of Israel - Israel according to the flesh?
No he is not. I base the following partly on material from NT Wright:

In verse 26, Paul quotes from Isaiah 59:20 (‘the deliverer will come from Zion’) in confirmation of his statement that ‘all Israel will be saved’. Does this refer to a renewed physical Jerusalem and a large-scale last-minute salvation of all Jews (or nearly all)? No, it does not. For in the crucial passage (Romans 11:25-28) Paul is clearly offering a deliberate redefinition of ‘Israel’, parallel to that in Galatians (6:16), in which the people thus referred to are the whole company, Jew and Gentile alike, who are now (as in Romans chapter 4 and 9:6ff. - see below) inheriting the promises made to Abraham.

In several places in Romans, Paul makes the argument that there is an "Israel according to the flesh" and an "Israel according to the Spirit. Consider Romans 4, for example:

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspringâ€â€not only to those who are of the law {Drew comment: it is clearly national Israel who is "of the law"}but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham {Drew comment: Paul is 'redefining' Israel here to include Gentile believers}. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believedâ€â€the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

I trust that this text makes it clear - Paul is arguing that there always an "Israel according to the Spirit" and an "Israel according to the flesh". Romans 9 makes the same point:

For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children

The Romans 11 material therefore gives us no scriptural grounds to specifically support the nation of Israel, since the "Israel" that is referred to in Romans 11 is "Israel according to the Spirit", not national Israel - "Israel according to the flesh"
 
Veritas said:
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world." John 18:36

Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world at the present time.

That is what the crux of "thy kingdom come thy will be done one earth as it is in heaven" is all about.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Note: Jesus does not rebuke them for asking that question

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

The Kindom is coming to this earth.

1 Timothy 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Don't worry Jesus is coming. :biggrin
 
bibleberean said:
Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Note: Jesus does not rebuke them for asking that question

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
I hope that you are not arguing that Jesus' response somehow endorses the idea that God intends to restore Israel to that strip of land? That is not a legitimate inference from the text.

I think the Scriptural evidence is pretty clear - the restoration of Israel has already taken place, but it has taken a surprising and wonderful form. Instead of giving a strip of land to ethnic Israel, God has given "Eden" back to all creation. What a wonderful God we serve.
 
Again, I encourage anyone who is reading this thread to go back and watch the videos I have posted. They will truly bless you. :biggrin
 
bibleberean said:
As far as Israel's future is concerned:

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

The sun is still shining and the moon and the stars are still in the sky.

God has not cast off His people Israel.
Indeed He has not cast them off, but we now know, following Paul's clear teaching, who "true" Israel actually is - it is not national Israel, but "those circumcized in the heart".

What is Jeremiah 31 all about? It is about covenant renewal. And note one of the ways in which Jeremiah characterizes covenant renewal in this very chapter?

This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.


Sound familiar? Here is something from Romans 2:

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,.."

This is about the Gentiles. Paul is quoting Jeremiah with the intent to drive home the following point: covenant renewal involves, among other things, the grafting in of the Gentiles. And I think it is pretty clear that Paul is saying that the renewed covenant, as specifically described in Jeremiah 31, includes these very Gentiles.

So when we read of a renewed covenant with the house of Israel in Jeremiah 31, we know that the "Israel" in question is not national Israel at all - it is "Israel according to the Spirit".

Therefore it is not scripturally correct to use this text from Jeremiah 31 as grounds for preferential treatment of national Israel - it is not even about them.
 
Robert,
You quoted Jeremiah 31:35-37, but you didn’t read what came before that and how it was to effect Isreal.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

We are under that new covenant as Jesus himself proclaimed when he instituted the Lords Supper.

Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Now, if we look just before Jesus said this, he also said,
Luke 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Without going into great detail, we all know what happened next, but how many of us really catch what Jesus said and did after he rose from the dead?

Luke 24:30-31 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
 
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Hey Drew, just caught your post and your spot on.

Drew said:
Indeed He has not cast them off, but we now know, following Paul's clear teaching, who "true" Israel actually is - it is not national Israel, but "those circumcized in the heart".

Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Which Paul quotes from...

Romans 9:25-27 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
 
From Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth by Clarence Larkin Chapter 3 Jew and Gentile

THE RESTORATION OF THE JEWS
1. As to the FACT.

"And I will bring again the captivity of my people `Israel' and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land." Am 9:14-15.

But you say this prophecy was fulfilled in the restoration from the "Babylonian Captivity." Not so, for they were driven out of the land after that, and this promise is, that they shall no more be pulled up out of their land, and must refer to some future restoration. The return from the "Babylonian Captivity" was the First restoration, and the Scriptures speak of a Second.

"And it shall come to pass in "That Day" (Millennial Day) that the Lord shall set his hand again the SECOND TIME to recover the remnant of His People, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the Sea." Isa 11:11.

The Jews have never been restored but ONCE, and that was from Babylon. The march from Egypt to Canaan was not a restoration. You cannot have anything restored to you unless it has been in your possession before, and Palestine was never in possession of the Children of Israel until after its conquest by Joshua.

Again the Jews are to come this time, not from the "East," as when they returned from the "Babylonish Captivity," but from the "North," and from "All Countries."

"Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be said, The Lord liveth, that brought up the Children of Israel out of the Land of Egypt; but the Lord liveth that brought up the Children of Israel from the land of the NORTH and from ALL THE LANDS whither He had driven them; and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers." Jer 16:14-15. Also Isa 43:5-7.

2. As to the TIME.

When the "TIMES OF THE GENTILES" Have Been Fulfilled.

"And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL the `Times of the Gentiles' be fulfilled." Lu 21:24.

3. As to the MANNER

a. Gathered Back UNCONVERTED.

"I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. THEN will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your filthiness, and from all your idols will I cleanse you. A New Heart also will I give you, and a New Spirit will I put within you; and I will give you an Heart of Flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes; and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Eze 36:24-27.

b. Before Conversion They Are To Be JUDGED.

"I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. . . . And I will cause you to `Pass Under The Rod,' and I will bring you into the bond of the Covenant; and I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against Me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the Land of Israel." Eze 20:34-38.

Then God will cast them into His "Melting Pot."

"Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because ye are all become dross, behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in Mine anger and in My fury and I will leave you there, and MELT YOU. Yea I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of My wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof. As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the Lord have poured out My fury upon you." Eze 22:19-22.

"Behold, I will send My messenger (Elijah-- Mal 4:5-6), and he shall prepare the way before Me, and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His Temple, even the Messenger of the Covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, He shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a Refiner's Fire, and like Fuller's Soap: and He shall sit as a Refiner and Purifier of Silver: and He shall Purify the Sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness." Mal 3:1-3.

"And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name and I will hear them: I will say, it is My people; and they shall say, the Lord is my God." Zec 13:9.

The Jews have never as yet had such an experience as this. It is spoken of in Jer. 30:4-7, and Dan. 12: 1, as the "Time of `Jacob's Trouble,'" and Christ called it "THE GREAT TRIBULATION," and He and Zechariah the Prophet associate it with the Return of the Lord. Mt 24:21-31; Zec 14:1-11.

The result of these terrible judgments will be that the Jews will call in their misery upon the Lord.

"And I will pour upon the `House of David' and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem The Spirit of Grace and of Supplications." Zec 12:10.

Then Christ will come back to Jerusalem-- "And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives which is before Jerusalem on the east." Zec 14:4.

"And they shall look upon ME Whom They Have Pierced." Zec 12:10.

And a nation, the Jewish Nation, shall be born (converted) IN A DAY.

"Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a Nation Be Born at Once? for as soon as Zion Travailed, She Brought Forth Her Children." Isa 66:8.

As the Children of Israel when they came out of Egypt took with them of the "Riches of the Egyptians," (Ex 12:35-36), so when they return to their own land they will take with them the "Riches of the Gentiles." Isa 60:9; 61:6.

When they return to their own land it will be to possess and occupy all that was promised to Abraham. "The Royal Grant" given by the Almighty to Abraham extended from the "River of Egypt" unto the "Great River," the River Euphrates (Ge 15:18); and according to Ezekiel (Eze 48:1-29), from Hamath, north-east of Damascus, to Kadesh on the south. The Temple will be rebuilt. The Glory of the Lord will return. Sacrifices will again be offered. The Government shall be reestablished, and the nations of the earth will be blessed through Israel. Zec 8:20-23.
 
bibleberean said:
Again, I encourage anyone who is reading this thread to go back and watch the videos I have posted. They will truly bless you. :biggrin

I saw them all. I believe that Deut 28 (Which was referenced) was fullfilled in 586 BC.

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bibleberean said:
Once again, you portray the Palestinians as faceless hordes. When you do not show the face, you implicitly suggest that they are not "real people" - that they are monsters.
 
I would encourage anyone besides my friend stovebolts who already saw them to go back and watch the videos I posted and make up their own mind.

God bless,

Robert :biggrin
 
Robert,
This is serious and not a cartoon or a joke. People are dying horrible deaths and I don't think that God is one bit happy about it.

There has been much scripture quoted and redacted, please do not get angry with us that disagree by posting cartoons. If you really care for the fold and you really want to be a teacher of scripture, then please take a moment and teach in a thoughtful manner according to where others are at. I don't think that anyone here has been rude to you and there have been many good points made.

This will be my last post until monday. God bless and have a good weekend.
 
bibleberean said:
I would encourage anyone besides my friend stovebolts who already saw them to go back and watch the videos I posted and make up their own mind.

God bless,

Robert :biggrin

Though we disagree on this topic Robert, thank you for being able to seperate the matter and continue to call me friend, as I continue and have always called you friend and brother.

Know that my issue is with the suffering of humanity from needless hatred rooted within religion and yes, even from within Christianity. If we don't own our share, then how will we set an example to those that only know hatred?

God bless.
 
bibleberean said:
a. Gathered Back UNCONVERTED.

"I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. THEN will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your filthiness, and from all your idols will I cleanse you. A New Heart also will I give you, and a New Spirit will I put within you; and I will give you an Heart of Flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes; and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Eze 36:24-27.
Is this text really saying that the ethnic Jews will be gathered (uncoverted) back into that strip of land?

Or is this a more global promise - that a "true" Israel - a true wordwide family whose members are demarcated by nothing other than their faith - will be formed by God?

Lets look at Romans 2:25-29

Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[c] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God


I think the connexion to the Ezekiel text is rather clear.

But in case there is any doubt that, in Romans 2:25-29, Paul is referring to this exact passage from Ezekiel (and therefore defining the true Israel to which that passage refers), consider Romans 2:24:

24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you

and now consider Ezekiel 36:20 which, of course, immediately precedes the Ezekiel text that BB has quoted in support of his position:

And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, 'These are the LORD's people, and yet they had to leave his land

Let the reader draw whatever conclusion they see fit.
 
I want to make it clear that Paul clearly and unambiguously transfers the covenant promises made to national Israel over to the "true" Israel - "Israel according to the Spirit". He does this in Romans 9.

Paul starts by re-stating that ethnic Israel has indeed recieved all the covenant promises including, of course, the land:

3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

Paul then proceeds defend God's actions by arguing that, despite ethnic Israel's rejection of the Messiah, God has kept his word:

It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring

So Paul is clearly saying that God has indeed kept his promise, but he re-defines who "true Israel" actually is.

And later in Romans 9, Paul defends God's "right" to declare that His true covenant people are not ethnic Israel after all:

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathâ€â€prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,


Paul is making a very clear case: The covenant has not failed - God indeed has and / or will fulfill all His promises to Israel. How does Paul make this work, given ethnic Israel's failure to come into the family of God? He re-defines Israel.

And in Romans 2, he shows that this is not really a "re-definition" - God never counted ethnic Israel as his covenant family simply based on ethnicity. So Paul is not so much re-defining as he is "telling us the ways things have always been".

It is for these reasons that all the promises that seem to belong to ethnic Israel do not belong to her at all, including this idea that she be restored to Palestine. The promises are actually for a different family - the family who place their faith in Christ. And the land is not Palestine - it is eternal existence in a restored cosmos.
 
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"Peace will come to the Middle East when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us."

Golda Meir
 

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