Isn't this why we ask people to introduce themselves and say something about themselves before they post elsewhere to avoid things just as this?
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Bible Study Who Told you, When you Die you go to Heaven?
- Thread starter Bro.Tan
- Start date
And that's why I don't have a problem using my real name
We could talk all day about the trinity Mr. Parker
I bet very few on this forum would agree with each other
2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
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I read your post to me.
Could you tell me exactly what you're saying?
Are you saying we don't go to heaven when we die?
At least not right away...
Please clarify.
Jim Parker
Member
Then many would have a problem with the teaching of the Bible, the Church, and authentic Christianity.
The Holy Spirit is NOT God's breath.
Jim,
You know that I believe in the Holy Trinity.
I also have learned that Jesus is the Word of God. God's spoken word (besides the Logos)
And that the Holy Spirit is the breath of God.
This is not to be taken literally but is used to explain a little bit about the Trinity since God is only one. We might call it an analogy, although that is not even right.
Have you determined that the post in question is NOT meant in this way? I can't tell. I'd like some clarification.
You seem to be very upset by this.
Maybe you should start a separate thread on this.
Jim Parker
Member
Please see my response in the thread "The Holy Spirit is a "Who" not a "what."
Douglas Summers
Member
Job, an OT saint asked the question, If a man die, will he live again? (Job 14:14) Little was known in the OT about what happens after the grave, and there was a reason for that, and Scripture tells us (2 Tim. 1:9-11) It was left up to Christ to bring Life and immortality to light. Notice it says "to light" Not just created, but brought to light what He had already created.
A close and dear friend of Jesus had passed away (Lazarus) (John 11:1-27) On His way to Lazarus sisters (Martha) runs to meet Him, saying, "if you had been here, Lazarus would not have died" (v 21) But Christ says to her, "Thy brother shall rise again", (v 23). Martha says, "Yes, I know Lord that he shall rise in the last day of the resurrection of the dead" (v 24). But look what Christ says, "I'am the resurrection, and the life, he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? + (John 8:51) The flesh goes back to the ground where it came from, and the Spirit of the born again believer goes to the Lord who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:6-7) Christ gives a witness of this in the teaching of (Lazarus and the rich man) This is not a parable but a teaching of Spiritual things (Luke 16:19-31). Paul alludes to the soul waiting for a new body in (2 Cor. 5:1-9). But you are correct about the souls of the saved, they do not look down on this corrupted earth and it's curse, but are in the presence of the glory of God until we receive our new body. Until then we (I suppose) we shall be like the angels. (Matt. 22:28-33) Please study the Scriptures. It is also true in the OT that you can not please God after the grave. If we are to please God, it will have to be while we are here on earth. (Isaiah 38:17-19). For it is appointed for man, once to die, and then the Judgment (Heb. 9:27)
Christ in us
Douglas Summers
We do not go to heaven when we die. Lets take a look at what Jesus said in John 6: 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmurnot among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Notice: what Jesus saying...no man come to Jesus until he raise them up at the last day, not when they or you die.
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
So Jesus said this four times, so will understand and not think we go right to heaven when we die. We have to wait for him.
Let’s go to the Prophet Job and see if he knows anything about this subject.
Job 14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.
2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
Remember what Solomon said? Let's take another look. Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. Job said basically, "Man that is born of a woman is of few days and full of trouble". Each day you walk with God there is a war going on within your mind. Trying your best to keep this flesh body under control, trying to walk in the Lord's law, that is the trouble you encounter. If some one says it is easy that's a lie. You must walk in his power (His Word), to stay strong. You have a powerful adversary, and who is that? You. Pay close attention!
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Lets see when the heaven be no more in Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Now we getting to the second coming of Jesus, this is what Job is talking about, till heaven becomes no more. So Job knew much about this.
Hi Bro.Tan, I'll just attempt to inject thought concerning this scripture since Jesus is speaking to unbelievers. Will unbelievers ever be raised as those who have eternal life that have been given to Jesus?
Which last day? of a believer’s life? How else can we account for those seen in heaven by John in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 even prior to the tribulation?
John also observes other believers before the throne of God in Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.
What of Jesus' angel? Will you deny him also?
Thanks.
Douglas Summers
Member
You believe Job over Christ when Job admitted he knew nothing when He met the Lord?(Job 42:1-6) If you can not believe Christ's teachings's Then you will have to believe your own understanding till you meet the Lord as Job did. (Job 40:1-5)
Hi Bro Tan,
I see what you mean.
Some churches do teach that when we die we go to "sleep" and then wake up at the resurrection. I don't believe this to be true for several reasons:
1. Jesus said He is the resurrection in John 11:25-26
Jesus is the resurrection because in Him is the spark of Spiritual life.
If one has Jesus, one has attained the spark of life.
In John 11:25 Jesus plainly states that if we believe in Him, we will LIVE even if we die.
And in John 11:26 He states plainly that whoever believes in Him will never die.
Then Jesus asks if we believe this.
New American Standard Bible
John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
2. Also, if you read Luke 16:19-31, you'll find that this might not be a parable because actual names and persons are used. Jesus clearly states that the persons who had died went somewhere. Some to the comfort of God in Abraham's Bossom,
Luke 16:22 and some went to what we would call hell.. Luke 16:23.
(I say "some" because there were many there)
These persons were not "asleep" but were alive.
3. God is not a God of the dead, but of the living....
Mathew 22:32
American Standard Version
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
And Jesus said this directly in replying to questions regarding the resurrection.
Mathew 22:31 He even asked the Sadducees if they did not understand the scriptures. (O.T.)
4. Jesus asked the Sadducees why they did not understand scripture (the O.T.) because they did not believe in the afterlife. He was specifically making a point that the dead are not dead but are living.
There are other scripture I could refer you to, but the above should be enough.
As I've said before, you're gettting the resurrection OF THE BODY, (at the end of the world) mixed up with the resurrection of the soul and spirit. (which is immediate).
Man is made of 3 parts:
Body
Soul
Spirit
Our body dies.
Our soul and spirit live on.
Spirit cannot die, just as God cannot die.
When Jesus died on the cross, did He remain dead?
No.
Are we not made in the image of God?
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brujaq
Member
I agree with all scripture Bro.Tan and I agree with you .. But are these scriptures those of the point of view of man concerning man and his death perspective and as far as he could know and be concerned with the dead but not Gods perspective, we can say the same today except Jesus has told us what it is.. And Luke 16:19-31 who says that is a parable or is it assumed to be, if it is it's the only one I know of that gives names and personal specifics .
But we know that since Jesus crucifixion we sleep in our grave awaiting Jesus second coming even as our flesh rots or burned , whatever. But tie up some loose ends for me concerning the thief on the cross and those saints who broke out of their graves at Jesus death .. Jesus died before the thief but he told the thief he would be in paradise with him that day then the OT saints seen walking the streets in Jerusalem .. Did they go break back into their
graves ? Just looking for an honest perspective and scripture if possible or even an ''I don't know'' .. Was Jesus at work from the instant his flesh give up the ghost or did he just go to his grave waiting for 3 days .. What work was he doing while his body was in the tomb ? Any or none ?
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Lets take a look at the thief on the cross situation. Most people miss understand this situation all the time. Lets carefully look at this ...let go into Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Now if we look closely with spiritual eyes and understanding we know that something is wrong with situation. The common is in the wrong place, Lets place the common in the right place and see how it should read...43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. Those that have knowledge knows that Jesus was in the grave for three days and three nights, so with understanding we see the error right a way.
Lets go into Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. So Jesus and the thieves went to the grave when they died. Now, Jesus rose from the grave after three day and three nights, and still didn't go to the third heaven yet.
Lets go into St. John 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Now...Jesus still on Earth (first heaven) and talking to Mary, and where is the thief? Still in the grave into this day!
We can’t read anywhere, where Jesus told the thief, I'll meet you up there in a few days, so hold tight till I get there...Lol. Jesus says with his own mouth in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. But people look over the 42 second verse in in Luke. Lets read it again. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Remember me when thou comes into thy kingdom. Thats after Jesus second coming, brothers and sisters.
Lets go into Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. This is Jesus Kingdom or paradise the thief asks Jesus to remember him in.
Concerning those that came out they graves in Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, :53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
They all went back in the grave, but this was to us that Jesus is the God the living and not the dead, and we'll all be resurrected at the last day.
Hi Bro.Tan, I'll just attempt to inject thought concerning this scripture since Jesus is speaking to unbelievers. Will unbelievers ever be raised as those who have eternal life that have been given to Jesus?
Which last day? of a believer’s life? How else can we account for those seen in heaven by John in Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 even prior to the tribulation?
John also observes other believers before the throne of God in Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.
What of Jesus' angel? Will you deny him also?
Thanks.
We have to keep in mind that there are two resurrection. Lets go read about the first one in Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
So lets rewind a bit and see this first resurrection, because those you see in Rev 4:4-6 are after all this. This verse we are getting to read take place toward the ending of the great tribulation. After the sky roll back and sun and moon do not give her light. Lets go into 1 Thessalonians 4: 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Notice: Only the dead in Christ will raise first, and the Lord is descend...meaning coming down
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Notice: Some will still be alive raising with the dead to meet the Lord in the air.
Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Douglas Summers
Member
Hi brujag, I do not see how you can agree with all Scripture, and then agree with Bro. Tan? Or did you mean you agree with Bro. Tan's explanation of the meaning of Scripture? What has The Lord shown you about what happens after death?