Why did the Geneva Bible start using the word "pastors" in Ephesians 4:11?

[carlos123]

I am not

What's your answer, why were they translated as they were?

tob

I am not sure tob. That is why I wanted to discuss this. In case anyone had read anything or had any idea that might help me understand why this translation inconsistency occurred.

Carlos

 

[Brother Mike]

Hi tob.

I do want to stick to the topic of this thread which is WHY the word "Pastors" made it into the Geneva Bible if possible. Though some explanation of what I said might be relevant to that I think.

Incidentally my interest in this has absolutely not the slightest thing to do with wanting to discount the hard work Pastors do so I am not sure why you are even bringing that up.

Let me explain it this way if I might.

1 Corinthians 14:26 (HCSB) says this...



If we assume (without a full discussion of what 1 Cor 14 is talking about it will remain an assumption on my part) that the above describes an open, participatory type of meeting and we further assume (again without a full discussion of the matter) that the lack of any mention in the entire book of 1 Corinthians of pastoral oversight to be significant...the I think it is safe to say that the present day format of our church practice where we generally file in (to a church building), sit, stand, sing, hear a sermon, sit and stand some more, sing a closing song and then file out on time and on cue is not what Paul had in mind when he instructed the Corinthian church on how their meetings were to be conducted.

Ephesians 4:11 lists more than just Pastors in the list of giftings. Yet the pastoral role today has become THE gift most visibly operating in the church as if the other gifts have completely ceased to be.

Something is wrong with the way we do church today tob.

In my reading of the scriptures Jesus is the Head (not the Pastor). He in turn leads us all through his Holy Spirit. We all represent the Lord Jesus as his body through a combination of gifts which express some aspect of his character. No ONE gift expresses Christ in such a way that none of the other gifts are needed. Likewise there should be freedom of expression for all the gifts. Nor should permission be sought to express what the Lord is prompting any member of the body to say through their respective gift.

Whether you agree with any of what I have said or not...I see a BIG, BIG difference between the view that Jesus is the Head and that he leads us through his Spirit to express his heart to the rest of the body through ANY ONE OF US and the view that seems prevalent today that the pastoral gift is allowed freedom of expression while the rest of us must generally sit, watch, listen, and learn.

Again...I want to stick to the topic of this thread. I am concerned that we are veering off into an all out discussion the modern day pastoral role and how it might be or might not be off scripturally. I do hope we can stick to a discussion of how and why the word "Pastor" made it into the Geneva Bible as that is my more immediate interest in discussing.

Carlos

OK Carlos. Page 2 and though you mention things about not talking about the Modern roles of Pastors, you mention something is wrong with the way the Modern church uses them today. Your breaking your own rules and expect us not to respond to that.

Your also hung up on why something translated Pastor. Who knows, who cares. Why is Salvation not translated physical healing? Why was Apostle never translated? Why is Christ not translated?

I can see why you upset the folks at Worthy Christian Forums, Reading through, it's your fault as your only looking for answer you want to hear. Shiloh who I don't agree with most everything, asked the same question to you we have. At the end you just get upset.

That is how it's gonna end here, because we are asking and saying the same things Posted At Worthy. Your to blame.

And he gaue some apostles, and some prophetes, and some euangelistes, and some shepheardes and teachers,
(Eph 4:11) Bishop Bible
Happy???
Use the Bishop bible, problem solved.

Now you mentioned Modern churches, what is the problem with Modern churches and Pastors? Let me tell you, there are many not called or anointed to be Pastors. The gift to do the job is not on them, they choose it, went to some school, and it ends in a powerless church.

Who cares though? We just stay away from those churches or listen to some powerless teaching about nothing every Sunday.

This Ends like the Worthy thread if you just don't spit it out and stop agreeing on answer you already think you have.

wow.

 

[turnorburn]

In my bible it says Pastor so I'm going with that, and to be honest with you i don't see a problem.. its been a long hot day, time to hit the sack, i hope you find what your looking for..

tob

 

[Deborah13]

And he gaue some apostles, and some prophetes, and some euangelistes, and some shepheardes and teachers,
(Eph 4:11) Bishop Bible

So now compare what Peter says about elders in 1 Peter 5. Peter says the elders are sheppards, too. They are also to feed the flocks. Correct?
If I am reading Calvin correctly, he agrees that the elders also are to take on pastoral duties.
And that pastors are not necessarily the teacher, they are the preacher.
So now I wonder what Calvin's definition of a pastor was compared to a teacher. But that is not relevant to this thread topic.

 

[Free]

I understand what you are saying Free but what do most people think of when they hear the word "Pastor"?

A POSITION. Notice the singular dimension of that word in the minds of most.

What do they think about when they hear the word "shepherd"?

Certainly not a POSITION. Perhaps a shepherd of sheep.

Do people even realize that the word "Pastors" in Ephesians 4:11 is describing someone gifted to be a shepherd of the sheep? A gift that may be present even in someone who has not been ordained or recognized in ANY leadership role at all?

In other words the gift of shepherding is not tied to a POSITION. It is a function within the church, a function that stems from a gift, that can be exercised by anyone having that gift - whether they have a position within a church or not.

Entomologically the words "pastors" and "shepherds" refer to the same thing. But as a matter of practical reality the word "Pastor" has come to be associated with a definite and particular POSITION of church leadership. If they mean the same thing why don't we call church leaders "shepherds"?

Carlos

If pastor is tied to a position, then shepherd is tied to a position, and biblically speaking, this is what we see. Being a shepherd is an office in the Church's hierarchical structure.

 

[Deborah13]

If pastor is tied to a position, then shepherd is tied to a position, and biblically speaking, this is what we see. Being a shepherd is an office in the Church's hierarchical structure.

None of that is being questioned. A pastor being a sheppard is not in question. But is he the only sheppard in the church?

 

[reba]

Okay...so why don't we call church overseers Servants instead of Pastors then?

Word choices are significant in that certain things become associated with certain words. Again what's with the use of the word "Pastor" in the Geneva?

If you don't know that's fine but that is what I am after.

Carlos

Carlos, think how can some one today tell you the 'why' of something 500 or so years ago?

 

[carlos123]

OK Carlos. Page 2 and though you mention things about not talking about the Modern roles of Pastors, you mention something is wrong with the way the Modern church uses them today. Your breaking your own rules and expect us not to respond to that.

Sorry if I broke my own "rule". I just thought it was relevant but I won't do that again. Thanks for pointing that out.

Your also hung up on why something translated Pastor. Who knows, who cares.

Well...obviously you don't care but...well...I am interested in that. Our translations were produced by people who had an extreme interest in what words meant. Is it okay with you if I continue with my interest however much you may not see any value in that interest?

I can see why you upset the folks at Worthy Christian Forums, Reading through, it's your fault as your only looking for answer you want to hear.

I did have a problem at Worthy Christian Forum. That problem had nothing to do with looking for answer that I wanted to hear. I am not interest at all in being told what I want to hear. Why in the world would I bother to post anything at all if that is all I wanted to do? That is ludicrous. I have better things to do with my time than to go around trying to hear what I want to hear.

I was and still am truly interested in the topic at hand. People don't seem very inclined to discuss the historicity (if I may call it that) of the word "Pastors" which is fine but I still have an interested in finding out WHY the Geneva started using this word.

The problem I have had is that it is awfully difficult to not end up with some people feeling as if I am stepping on their toes or something in that the very thing I am interested in might undermine the present day role of Pastor (I guess though I am not entirely sure what the problem is discussing this issue).

Shiloh who I don't agree with most everything, asked the same question to you we have. At the end you just get upset.

I am not upset at all. I am interested in reasoned and respectful discussion. Have I not done that? As long as people treat me with the respect that they might like for themselves on a Christian forum I have no problem. It's when people start in on me with false accusations and the like that I tend to start calling them out on their unchristian behaviour.

If I have done wrong here by all means get specific and tell me what it is that I have done wrong or said wrong.

That is how it's gonna end here, because we are asking and saying the same things Posted At Worthy. Your to blame.

You are using inflammatory language for no reason. My own fault? For what exactly? What have I said that is very worthy of being accused over?

I see nothing ending here as long as we can have a civil discourse. Even if you disagree with me keep it civil and I won't have a problem discussing things with you and even learning from you. Start dealing with me in the flesh and the like and I will call you out on being very unChristlike in your responses no matter who you are.

And he gaue some apostles, and some prophetes, and some euangelistes, and some shepheardes and teachers,
(Eph 4:11) Bishop Bible
Happy???
Use the Bishop bible, problem solved.

Your response here does not indicate a sincere desire to discuss this issue. Rather you are berating me for who knows what reason.

This Ends like the Worthy thread if you just don't spit it out and stop agreeing on answer you already think you have.

Spit out what exactly? What is it that you are wanting me to say? I have an interest in this topic. Is that acceptable here? What am I saying wrong exactly?

Please point out my wrong.

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

Carlos, think how can some one today tell you the 'why' of something 500 or so years ago?

It may not be possible for me to arrive at a definite answer Reba. Still...I was kinda hoping that someone might have read some historical source document or have some input that I might not have thought of.

But as you say...that may not be possible.

Carlos

 

[Brother Mike]

So now compare what Peter says about elders in 1 Peter 5. Peter says the elders are sheppards, too. They are also to feed the flocks. Correct?
If I am reading Calvin correctly, he agrees that the elders also are to take on pastoral duties.
And that pastors are not necessarily the teacher, they are the preacher.
So now I wonder what Calvin's definition of a pastor was compared to a teacher. But that is not relevant to this thread topic.

Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
(1Ti 2:7)

Being called and gifted to take multiple roles is pretty common.

1Co_12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

God sets these positions. Paul mentions gifted positions, and gifts all use, then some called into Administrative roles or even being part in governments.

My brethren, be not many masters (teachers), knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
(Jas 3:1)

Pastor's can Preach and/or Teach. We are told not to be teachers of many things. God has given each revelation in different areas and we should stay in that area.
I have a reveled knowledge of faith and trusting God, how to trust God, so on. That is where I am most comfortable and anointed. That is a teacher role.
That is why we need different people teaching us different things, and not assume we know it all.

It seems there are Main gifts, but that does not mean that is all people are gifted to do. They can still use evangelism but not to the effect someone is gifted to do that as the main thing.

 

[Deborah13]

Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
(1Ti 2:7)

Being called and gifted to take multiple roles is pretty common.

1Co_12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

God sets these positions. Paul mentions gifted positions, and gifts all use, then some called into Administrative roles or even being part in governments.

My brethren, be not many masters (teachers), knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
(Jas 3:1)

Pastor's can Preach and/or Teach. We are told not to be teachers of many things. God has given each revelation in different areas and we should stay in that area.
I have a reveled knowledge of faith and trusting God, how to trust God, so on. That is where I am most comfortable and anointed. That is a teacher role.
That is why we need different people teaching us different things, and not assume we know it all.

It seems there are Main gifts, but that does not mean that is all people are gifted to do. They can still use evangelism but not to the effect someone is gifted to do that as the main thing.

Still you don't address 1 Peter 5:1-4. That's on topic.

 

[Brother Mike]

Still you don't address 1 Peter 5:1-4. That's on topic.

I thought I addressed this.

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
(1Pe 5:1-5)

If you look at Acts, and the NT Church example.

Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
(Act 6:2-3)

There was no clear example of 1 Pastor that ran a church. Instead, we see Elders those matured, who also some where gifted as Pastors.

We see the early church, the 12 call their disciples to take care of church matters, so they could do the praying and seeking the Word of God.

The elders were giving the charge to Feed the Flock around you. One would assume this be a constant thing with the people nearby.

Planned church Gathering.
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
(1Co 11:18)

There appears to be a body of believers, that live close to each other, that made plans to come together. I don't see anything denoting they all came under 1 Pastor, but that those called to Pastor all where there.

Here is the deal though Deborah. The Word of God has lots of insight. Jesus is still Head of the Church, and if we were doing things wrong today, then a guideline would have been clearly set that it's 1 Pastor of a Church. There is nothing that says it can't be one Pastor of a Church, and Nothing says that it's all run by many Elders.

At our Church, Our Pastor does the job of directing the church. We have people selected to visit in Hospitals, and people in charge of a lot of things Our Pastor has nothing to do with. Now Brother Kieth has done lots of praying to run things as the Lord wants them run.

I find it hard to believe that nobody else is not following exactly how the Lord wants things run in their churches.

Different Sheep Folds may do different things.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
(Joh 10:16)

Everyone will be brought under Jesus, One Shepard. Jesus mentioned it, and Peter mentioned it. For now, the Pastor should run the Church and get direction for running the Church.

Mike

 

[Deborah13]

Everyone will be brought under Jesus, One Shepard. Jesus mentioned it, and Peter mentioned it. For now, the Pastor should run the Church and get direction for running the Church.

For now each member of the body of Christ should be doing what their conscience (that is influenced by the Holy Spirit) tells them, seeing we can't see very clearly what the 1st century church looked like.
Personally I think it looked a lot like the synagogue where Jesus stood up and spoke.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
(Joh 10:16)

Just for the sake of context....
The other sheep not of this fold, are the Gentiles. This fold, are the Jews. They come together as one fold.
Jew and Gentile one, in Christ.

 

[Brother Mike]

For now each member of the body of Christ should be doing what their conscience (that is influenced by the Holy Spirit) tells them, seeing we can't see very clearly what the 1st century church looked like.
Personally I think it looked a lot like the synagogue where Jesus stood up and spoke.


Just for the sake of context....
The other sheep not of this fold, are the Gentiles. This fold, are the Jews. They come together as one fold.
Jew and Gentile one, in Christ.

I am pretty sure it was modeled by what they had as an example of the synagogue, would make complete sense to do so. The Galatians even started to pick up the Law again it might have been so closely modeled. But following your Conscience and seeking the Lord on how to run it as Jesus is the Head is exactly how it's suppose to be.

As for the other sheep fold?

The issue I have with Context of the other sheep being Gentiles is the lack of scripture that says that. Now if there were no other scriptures that might draw us to something else, then ya. Good enough if nothing else is said about it. Jesus only was sent for the Jews though, what other thought about Gentile sheep would he have?

However, we only have a small part of what Jesus did hand picked b the Holy Ghost.

After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
(Luk 10:1-4)

We have 70 folks here Jesus Appointed and told to do what He told his 12 to be doing. they are only mentioned in Luke though, and we don't know that much about them.

In my thinking, that's a whole other group taking Orders from him that are not of the 12.

Blessings

 

[Deborah13]

In my thinking, that's a whole other group taking Orders from him that are not of the 12.

Some if not all of them may have been part of the 120 in the upper room on Pentecost.

 

[Brother Mike]

Some if not all of them may have been part of the 120 in the upper room on Pentecost.

Wow, I had that same thought. Paul might have even mentions some of them and worked with a few.

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
(Joh 21:25)

We only have what is hand picked by the Holy Spirit of all Jesus taught and said and did. He might have had others report to him and working for him. There are only 12 Apostles who were commissioned to give the Word. (John 17) Jesus said only Judas was lost, so I am pretty sure He was praying for the 11 the Father Gave him.

So, there is a whole lot I believe Jesus was directing that we are never told.

What I do know, because everything was hand picked by the Holy Spirit of all Jesus did, then every single thing mentioned has to be of utmost importance. Can you imagine just following Jesus around and hearing everything He said?

When the guy with Leprosy came to him and ask......... You can do all things, you can make me clean if you will. Jesus touched him which speaks volumes and said "I WILL"

Because that was picked to be written down, and its a by thy will request, it speaks a whole lot to me.

Not turning this into a healing thing. When Jesus said, My father is greater than I, there is a very good reason that is there, and not because he was in a human body. He was in Heaven with the Father, he said he was, and He is not speaking from being a Human, He is speaking from a Sons point of view that lived with His Father.

Hence, I closely examine the Roman Catholic Trinity Doctrine. Not against it, but I don't buy the end of it that there is only 1.

We have to all be led, find the plan of God, and do what we know in our heart to do.

Thank you Deborah. Your blessed sister.

 

[carlos123]

I found something today that is interesting with respect to the use of the word "Pastor".

This word was in use way before the Geneva Bible came out. I mean in the sense of it referring to what we call Pastors even to this day.

John Calvin uses the word "Pastor" numerous times in his commentary on Galatians and Ephesians. In a preface of sorts (though he does not call it such) he signs off with the date of "1st February 1548" (see https://awakening2011.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/john-calvin-galateni-efeseni.pdf).

So it is quite obvious that this word was in use way before the Geneva Bible was published in it's entirety in 1560. Not only did John Calvin use this word freely in his commentary but he used it in such a way that it was implicitly understood that those who read his commentary would have been familiar with this word.

I find it interesting that in his commentary, Ephesians 4:11 is quoted as ...

11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

The above is quoted on page 233.

Alongside it is the Latin.

This quoting is a bit of a mystery in that the whole commentary was apparently written in Latin to begin with. So where the English quote alongside the Latin quote of the verses came from is a bit of a mystery in that it would make no sense to have the Latin (presumably translated into English from the Latin) alongside...well...the Latin in the column to the right.

What is likewise a mystery is what version of the Bible the English verses in the commentary came from. The Geneva Bible had not come out yet and no English Bible of the time had such a nicely structured and easily understood (by us at least) English rendering in them.

Perhaps the translator added the English next to the Latin to make the commentary easier to follow or something.

Anyway I just thought this was interesting.

For what it's worth.

Carlos

 

[Deborah13]

I found something today that is interesting with respect to the use of the word "Pastor".

This word was in use way before the Geneva Bible came out. I mean in the sense of it referring to what we call Pastors even to this day.

John Calvin uses the word "Pastor" numerous times in his commentary on Galatians and Ephesians. In a preface of sorts (though he does not call it such) he signs off with the date of "1st February 1548" (see https://awakening2011.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/john-calvin-galateni-efeseni.pdf).

So it is quite obvious that this word was in use way before the Geneva Bible was published in it's entirety in 1560. Not only did John Calvin use this word freely in his commentary but he used it in such a way that it was implicitly understood that those who read his commentary would have been familiar with this word.

I find it interesting that in his commentary, Ephesians 4:11 is quoted as ...



The above is quoted on page 233.

Alongside it is the Latin.

This quoting is a bit of a mystery in that the whole commentary was apparently written in Latin to begin with. So where the English quote alongside the Latin quote of the verses came from is a bit of a mystery in that it would make no sense to have the Latin (presumably translated into English from the Latin) alongside...well...the Latin in the column to the right.

What is likewise a mystery is what version of the Bible the English verses in the commentary came from. The Geneva Bible had not come out yet and no English Bible of the time had such a nicely structured and easily understood (by us at least) English rendering in them.

Perhaps the translator added the English next to the Latin to make the commentary easier to follow or something.

Anyway I just thought this was interesting.

For what it's worth.

Carlos

John Calvin was French, born and raised in France. So would it be even more natural for him to use pastor (pasteur, in French. for sheppard) which is from the Latin, it would have been very familiar to him.
Tyndale used sheppard. So it appears the change came in the Geneva but not in order to set any doctrine or hierarchy in the church. (see post #28)
I couldn't find any other resources that gave anymore insight into the change.

 

[carlos123]

Thanks for the input and your attempts to find something definitive on this issue Deborah.

I too have run into a dead end but as I was thinking about this before the Lord yesterday and taking into account the input I have gotten and what I found yesterdsy... It dawned on me that I have been too focused on the Geneva Bible such that I was missing how this word had been used for many centuries before the Geneva.

As you well point out..the Geneva did not start using "Pastor" to define or introduce some new hirearcheal position in the church.

I see now that I was mistaken in thinking that it had.

I do have a new theory as to why this word change occurred that I hope to share later (as I have to focus on my work for a few hours).

Carlos

 

[Free]

None of that is being questioned. A pastor being a sheppard is not in question. But is he the only sheppard in the church?

Some of that was being questioned. And, yes, he is the only shepherd in the church as far as the title pastor is used.