Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?

[RBDERRICK]

The mystery of being saved by faith and justified by works is resolved by knowing the difference between being born to do good works, and becoming natural at doing good works, to become born again.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The answer is how and where does God's righteousness come to man, that he may be justified by Christ.

In Scripture, God's righteousness comes by the faith of Jesus, and it comes into the heart first by birth of the Spirit: we are born again unto good works, not born again by doing good works, until it becomes natural to do so.

We do not 'discover' we are born again, when we learn we are doing good things naturally: we know we are born again by faith, and understand we have His power to do good at all times:

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

We don't seek to change our wicked ways by force of will, until we begin to do so naturally, so as to become as newborn creatures.

We become born again and sons of God by believing Jesus, knowing that the whole world lies in wickedness, and we are no more of that world, having no more fellowship with it.

With natural man, faith does not change the works, but only works can change the faith.

The reformation of Jesus Christ on earth is to undo the natural man's carnal understanding that to change ourselves, we must first change our works.

To the natural mind, all change is made by power of will, not by faith. The natural man's faith is in himself, and that faith of himself only transforms, as he sees himself changing by his works: We become better, because we do better, and we become as newborn, only when we become natural at doing better.

Any man, by power of will, can change his works in life, so that it becomes natural to do so: he is not born to do them, but willfully changes them, until it becomes so natural to him as it were by birth.

This is the error of them that were Jews by nature, who sought the righteousness of God to come to themselves, by doing righteousness as it were by law, and not by faith.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Neither the law nor the works of the law are the enemies of salvation by new birth, even as the letter of the law is not dead, except it be without the Spirit: being done not by faith but by will.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The doctrine of Christ against being saved by works, is not against works of the law, but is only against becoming new born by will of man to keep the law, until it becomes natural to do so, as by nature, not by birth.

Even as the first and second great commandments, God is a God of first things first: first be born again by the faith of Jesus to love Him with all the heart, second to love our neighbors as ourselves from the heart.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[RBDERRICK]

There is no 'progressivism' in Christ: we do not learn to progressively do better, which is to progressively become better at doing good: 'Fake it to you make it' outward sanctification is false.

We do not perfect holiness int he fear of the Lord progressively: we do not seek to do more and more righteousness of God, while doing less and less sins. But only approximates what God commands His sons to be: That is a power curve of will of man that will never perfect anything,

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

We love him, because he first loved us.

We become as He is by birth of His perfect seed Jesus Christ, and so do, by birth, as He did in the days of His flesh.

Those seeking to 'make it by faking it' will always have the fear of not making it enough, but still only faking it.

We love Him in keeping His commandments with a pure heart, because He first loved us with new birth of His Spirit.

Progressive outward sanctification is by power of will, until sanctified living becomes natural.

Salvation, Justification, and Sanctification of God is instant by new birth of the Spirit, both inwardly and outwardly, that it might be by grace and not by working the law to natural perfection by the power of one's own will.

No man becomes a son of God by seeking to do good, until it becomes natural to do it, because it is not how we were born, nor born again.

 

[Edward]

Progressive outward sanctification is by power of will, until sanctified living becomes natural.

Salvation, Justification, and Sanctification of God is instant by new birth of the Spirit, both inwardly and outwardly,

The new birth of the spirit is inwardly but not outwardly which would be the flesh, right? The flesh is unchanged after the new birth of the spirit. It's left to us to overcome the flesh.

Overcoming the flesh is done by always doing the right thing. Always doing the best thing. This trains one's mind and flesh to submit to the Spirit. So it becomes natural to do the right thing as you say. Which are typically good works.

Works do not effect salvation but works do make changes to ones heart and affecting spiritual growth. But of course most of us do not always know what is the right thing to do in every given situation. So this keeps us clinging to the Lord.

Pray without ceasing indeed.

 

[WIP]

Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?​

I've often wondered that same question. Scripture tells us we are saved not by works but that doesn't mean that we are to avoid works. It merely means that works is not the means by which we are saved.

Jesus said....
12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father."
John 14:12 NKJV

And...

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments."
John 14:15 NKJV

And...

21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
John 14:21 NKJV

Ephesians 2:8 is often quoted as a proof text for the theology against works and yet the next verses say we are created in Christ for good works. Works are a manifestation of our love and faith in God.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV

 

[evenifigoalone]

Personally I haven't seen anyone argue against works, just that some hold up OSAS and believe that while works are not how salvation is brought about, it is evidence of salvation.

That said, I don't debate theology that much

 

[Consecrated Life]

Why Do Christians Argue Against Works?​

It is your observation that all Christians do this , without exception ?
That's a very sweeping characterization .
You can't actually mean all Christians, and you can't actually mean all works ?
There are different types of Works are there not ?
When Jesus chastised those who made sure to accompany their great works with the sounding of the trumpet and the ringing of the bell, and much fanfare for all to see , was He also Arguing Against Works according to your understanding?
I have certainly witnessed both this type of work and the arguing against it, have you as well ?

 

[WIP]

Personally I haven't seen anyone argue against works, just that some hold up OSAS and believe that while works are not how salvation is brought about, it is evidence of salvation.

That said, I don't debate theology that much

What I have experienced, even in our own church, is when someone makes a statement that supports following moral behavior there are others that will cite them as being legalistic and they are not doing it as a compliment so it comes across as if it is a swear word and an accusation.

 

[JLB]

The mystery of being saved by faith and justified by works is resolved by knowing the difference between being born to do good works, and becoming natural at doing good works, to become born again.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The answer is how and where does God's righteousness come to man, that he may be justified by Christ.

In Scripture, God's righteousness comes by the faith of Jesus, and it comes into the heart first by birth of the Spirit: we are born again unto good works, not born again by doing good works, until it becomes natural to do so.

We do not 'discover' we are born again, when we learn we are doing good things naturally: we know we are born again by faith, and understand we have His power to do good at all times:

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

We don't seek to change our wicked ways by force of will, until we begin to do so naturally, so as to become as newborn creatures.

We become born again and sons of God by believing Jesus, knowing that the whole world lies in wickedness, and we are no more of that world, having no more fellowship with it.

With natural man, faith does not change the works, but only works can change the faith.

The reformation of Jesus Christ on earth is to undo the natural man's carnal understanding that to change ourselves, we must first change our works.

To the natural mind, all change is made by power of will, not by faith. The natural man's faith is in himself, and that faith of himself only transforms, as he sees himself changing by his works: We become better, because we do better, and we become as newborn, only when we become natural at doing better.

Any man, by power of will, can change his works in life, so that it becomes natural to do so: he is not born to do them, but willfully changes them, until it becomes so natural to him as it were by birth.

This is the error of them that were Jews by nature, who sought the righteousness of God to come to themselves, by doing righteousness as it were by law, and not by faith.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Neither the law nor the works of the law are the enemies of salvation by new birth, even as the letter of the law is not dead, except it be without the Spirit: being done not by faith but by will.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The doctrine of Christ against being saved by works, is not against works of the law, but is only against becoming new born by will of man to keep the law, until it becomes natural to do so, as by nature, not by birth.

Even as the first and second great commandments, God is a God of first things first: first be born again by the faith of Jesus to love Him with all the heart, second to love our neighbors as ourselves from the heart.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Most have been programmed, indoctrinated, and even brainwashed into believing that even believing itself is a work of the law.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The mystery of being saved by faith and justified by works is resolved by knowing the difference between being born to do good works, and becoming natural at doing good works, to become born again.

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The answer is how and where does God's righteousness come to man, that he may be justified by Christ.

In Scripture, God's righteousness comes by the faith of Jesus, and it comes into the heart first by birth of the Spirit: we are born again unto good works, not born again by doing good works, until it becomes natural to do so.

We do not 'discover' we are born again, when we learn we are doing good things naturally: we know we are born again by faith, and understand we have His power to do good at all times:

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

We don't seek to change our wicked ways by force of will, until we begin to do so naturally, so as to become as newborn creatures.

We become born again and sons of God by believing Jesus, knowing that the whole world lies in wickedness, and we are no more of that world, having no more fellowship with it.

With natural man, faith does not change the works, but only works can change the faith.

The reformation of Jesus Christ on earth is to undo the natural man's carnal understanding that to change ourselves, we must first change our works.

To the natural mind, all change is made by power of will, not by faith. The natural man's faith is in himself, and that faith of himself only transforms, as he sees himself changing by his works: We become better, because we do better, and we become as newborn, only when we become natural at doing better.

Any man, by power of will, can change his works in life, so that it becomes natural to do so: he is not born to do them, but willfully changes them, until it becomes so natural to him as it were by birth.

This is the error of them that were Jews by nature, who sought the righteousness of God to come to themselves, by doing righteousness as it were by law, and not by faith.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Neither the law nor the works of the law are the enemies of salvation by new birth, even as the letter of the law is not dead, except it be without the Spirit: being done not by faith but by will.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The doctrine of Christ against being saved by works, is not against works of the law, but is only against becoming new born by will of man to keep the law, until it becomes natural to do so, as by nature, not by birth.

Even as the first and second great commandments, God is a God of first things first: first be born again by the faith of Jesus to love Him with all the heart, second to love our neighbors as ourselves from the heart.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

I’m sorry but I’m trained as a scientist so I just have to ask, how is this theory working out for you in real life? Does your faith in Jesus result in you living him with all your heart as e measures that? (There are scriptures outlining that standard.)

Do you keep the law of God by nature now so it’s easy?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Most have been programmed, indoctrinated, and even brainwashed into believing that even believing itself is a work of the law.

I met an anti works believer who said loving God himself is a work and therefore unnecessary.

 

[JLB]

I met an anti works believer who said loving God himself is a work and therefore unnecessary.

Which is nothing but a doctrine of demons.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I met an anti works believer who said loving God himself is a work and therefore unnecessary.

"Thou shalt ignore the greatest commandment, for it beith truly unnecessary, yea verily." Lol.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

"Thou shalt ignore the greatest commandment, for it beith truly unnecessary, yea verily." Lol.

I personally think the “whatever you do, don’t do any works for God” theology has its appeal in laziness. I mean, if you can find a theology that encourages you NOT to discomfort yourself, that has an appeal. There’s a reckoning a comin’ but in the meantime it’s pleasant going.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I personally think the “whatever you do, don’t do any works for God” theology has its appeal in laziness. I mean, if you can find a theology that encourages you NOT to discomfort yourself, that has an appeal. There’s a reckoning a comin’ but in the meantime it’s pleasant going.

Maybe that wasn't intended to be funny (I'm guessing it wasn't), but I just can't help but laugh about things like this sometimes. I mean, it's so ridiculous it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Maybe that wasn't intended to be funny (I'm guessing it wasn't), but I just can't help but laugh about things like this sometimes. I mean, it's so ridiculous it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

I didn’t intend humor so thanks. The greater judgement will fall on those who taught this. Those who stood up and discouraged others from helping their fellowman, lest they be secretly trying to do good works, will face worse.

 

[for_his_glory]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[RBDERRICK]

Most have been programmed, indoctrinated, and even brainwashed into believing that even believing itself is a work of the law.

I don't believe you over exaggerate. If works ever even get within earshot of being saved and justified by God, then the long knives come out.


And woebetide the self-righteous that teach believing with the heart means obeying with the heart: where there is no obeying, there is no believing, which is exactly what James declares, where there is no works, there is no faith, and without works is dead, being alone.

 

[RBDERRICK]

I’m sorry but I’m trained as a scientist so I just have to ask, how is this theory working out for you in real life? Does your faith in Jesus result in you living him with all your heart as e measures that? (There are scriptures outlining that standard.)

Do you keep the law of God by nature now so it’s easy?

I haven't made it clear enough, I suppose. The teaching is against natural man, who believes they become changed and a 'new man', even inwardly, by first perfecting their change of life outwardly, until it becomes natural to them.

Outwardly we can change any habit of life by power of will alone, until that change becomes at some point natural to us.

Realizing when it has become natural to us is as a discovery of our new selves: that is not being born again of God to now do all things after His Spirit.

There is no force of will 'training period' of outward sanctification for them born of God at once to become sons of God now.

Ex. I once forsook all sugars, and so I changed from sweet to unsweetened tea. At first for a while, unsweetened was grossly bitter to me, but by will power I continued on, until one day I ordered tea and it came sweetened. When I put some in my mouth, I almost spit it our being grossly sweet.

I realized then, that which was gross to me had become natural, and what was natural to me hade become gross.

That is how natural man changes anything about himself: through works made to become natural first.

That is not how God changes the man by His divine nature, which is to change inwardly first, that the outward is done immediately without any need of 'adjustment time' to get used to it.

We don't work at being saved and justified with God, we just do it by faith, keeping a pure heart and conscience free from sinning again: that is the perfect liberty of Christ where there is now no condemning for them walking after His Spirit in all things today, and not walking after the flesh at all today.

I say today, because tomorrow will take care for itself: today is the only day of our salvation that matters to God, and ought matter to ourselves.

Conversion of Christ is instant: first within the heart and soul, and so immediately with the body in all things from a pure heart.

And if we sin like the old man of sin, then we can be forgiven by confession and repentance, so that we now are cleansed new again, to go on as before in righteousness and true holiness.

 

[RBDERRICK]

The new birth of the spirit is inwardly but not outwardly which would be the flesh, right? The flesh is unchanged after the new birth of the spirit. It's left to us to overcome the flesh.

Overcoming the flesh is done by always doing the right thing. Always doing the best thing. This trains one's mind and flesh to submit to the Spirit. So it becomes natural to do the right thing as you say. Which are typically good works.

Works do not effect salvation but works do make changes to ones heart and affecting spiritual growth. But of course most of us do not always know what is the right thing to do in every given situation. So this keeps us clinging to the Lord.

Pray without ceasing indeed.

I am being mistaken. The teaching is against seeking to doing right, until it becomes natural to us. The doctrine of Christ I offer is being born again right, so that we become sons of God doing it easily now, not later:

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

works do make changes to ones heart and affecting spiritual growth.

Once again, this is the opposite of the doctrine of Christ I offer. The change to our heart is first by God's Spirit though our faith, to be changed with a pure heart instantly, so that works of His righteousness come easy, since sin only comes by lust of heart enticing us to do so: be rid of the lust and thought for sin within, and so be rid of doing the lust of the world with the body.

The souls of the pure in heart are at rest now in Christ Jesus. There is no warring against the Spirit within, but only warring against the devil without, who would shoot his fiery darts of unrighteous thoughts within again.

The pure of heart have rest in the soul, because they know by full assurance of faith, that they will not sin with the flesh, unless they first receive the lust of the world into their hearts again.

The flesh is unchanged after the new birth of the spirit. It's left to us to overcome the flesh.

The flesh remains mortal yes. But the flesh is not sinful, nor born with sin: the flesh is nothing of itself. There is no sin nature nor sin spirit in skin tissue, lust in the bloodpump of the body, nor desire to sin in the brain.

Man is a soul, created a spiritual being by God. Man is not flesh and blood, nor is he a mortal body: the heart and mind of man is not the physical brain and heart of flesh and bone. And Jesus Christ is the Maker of all flesh and bone and spirit and soul, and He makes all things alive and good.

Even as in the beginnnign He made man a living soul, and man and woman good to rule over the earth, so He still does the same today. God creating the heaven and the earth has not ceased at all: He is still creating stars, planets with their moons, and living creatures on earth with grass and flesh and blood and living souls wrapped in mortal flesh.

When Jesus said He has overcome all flesh, he was not talking about his flesh, nor the flesh of any man, but rather was talking about natural men who gave themselves to the flesh and natural things of life, who also came against Him to tempt and to destroy Him in this life.

Our warfare is not with flesh and blood, because flesh and blood is mortal only, not sinful.

We don't overcome our flesh: we overcome sinning with the flesh, by overcoming any and all thought to sin unrighteously:

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

'Sinful flesh', is not the flesh's sinfulness, nor is the lust of the flesh, the flesh's lust, but rather sins are committed by souls with the flesh, by having lust within the heart.

It's souls that sin, not bodies, and it is souls that die by sinning, not bodies: bodies die without the spirit, because all flesh is made mortal of dust like the grass of the field.

Flesh and blood is not our enemy, but the devil who would tempt us to receive his thoughts of unrighteousness into our pure hearts, and so thereby sin again with the flesh, being enticed of our own lust.

When we are winning the war of the hearts and minds to overcome the spirit of world through Spirit and faith of Jesus within, we are winning easily, with our own cross, the war against the devil to do God's righteousness and not sin.

 

[JLB]

where there is no obeying, there is no believing, which is exactly what James declares,

Yes sir.

Here is a quote from another post I made, that comes from the thread

'Developing a Heart to Understand!'

Developing a Heart to Understand!

“Therefore hear the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears...

christianforums.net

Believe: - pisteuō Strongs # G4100 - verb


The KJV translates Strong's G4100 in the following manner: believe(239x), commit unto (4x), commit to (one's) trust (1x), be committed unto (1x), be put in trust with (1x), be commit to one's trust(1x), believer (1x).


I. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
A. of the thing believed
i. to credit, have confidence
B. in a moral or religious reference
i. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
ii. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
iii. mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
II. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
A. to be intrusted with a thing


Believe carries the meaning of obey… and is used interchangeably with obey in the Bible.


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does notbelieve the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obeythe Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB



It is noteworthy to understand that unbelief and disobedience are the same Greek word and are used interchangeably in the Bible based on translation.


Example: Unbelief = Disobedience


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


The word “believe” as it relates to Christ and His gospel, commandments and doctrine should be understood as follows.

Believe - Trust, commit to obey.






JLB