Growth Why does God let bad things happen to good people?

[GodsGrace]

Psa 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

How many does the Lord Deliver us out of? if you believe in Him, don't fear man as the Fear of man brings a snare, then All of them. We are delivered out of All.

I do in fact know what happened to Job, God had nothing to do with it.

Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

God is leading out of experience of Evil and Adversity. He is leading out, not sitting back and allowing. Worse things actually come on Non-believers. The same things can come on us, but God is there, every single time. it's not God "Allowing" It's God protecting from the god of this World.

Eph_2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Those that don't know God, or have no faith in God, they have no hope when bad things come up. We do, we have a deliver, a Helper in the time of Need, something greater than anything on Earth to hear our voice and perform His Word.

How we handle situations, the Trying of our Faith from the enemy, from the World is what is important to God. Did we crumble saying God's will be done? Did we stand up and say, "No you don't devil, it is Written!!!!"

Did we swing the Sword of the Spirit, with our armor on, or did we make excuses like so many faithless Christians and misquote Job and accuse our Great and wonderful God of evil?

That is where it's important, Will He find faith on Earth?

I am around, but more important things like NASA flipping God's Earth back at us. We are very close to the End. If we don't take God's Word literal about everything, believe Him, things won't go well.

Mike

Hi Mike,
I'm not one to debate and here's why. Look at your reply and also By Grace's. It's really difficult to discuss spiritual matters. I like it though, that's why I'm here. But one could be misunderstood, which is easy. We don't know each other and can only read this written word.

So I'll say this: I agree with a lot of what you say and disagree with some of it.

You say you know Job and God had nothing to do with it. God ALLOWED satan to do his dirty work with Job.
Please read the story again. Job 1:12 God puts everything material that Job owns in the hands of satan - that means satan could do whatever he wanted to with Job's material wealth. Then check Job 2:6 God now puts Job's physical condition in the hands of satan too. Then God goes on to tell Job how little he is, Job 38:4 In the end, Job surrenders. God is God. What else is there to do? Are we not to accept what befalls us? Are we greater than God?

Mathew 6:13 Lead us not into temptation. It doesn't mean what you're talking about but I'll address that -
How is God leading us out of temptation (you're understanding of what it means) if evil is happening to us?
I know plenty of un-believers who don't have the problems I have. Does grace not fall on all? Does evil not effect all? Do you feel so protected from evil? The sun shines on all and the rain falls on all. God is not here to make our life great - He's here because He's the creator and would His creation (us) to worship Him and to be with Him in heaven. I don't read anywhere that we have any guarantee that this world will not affect us. Only that He'll help us to bear it. So I agree with you 100% there.

So, yes, I have hope in HIM when bad things come up. But it's useless to say that He doesn't ALLOW them to happen. It's like saying He's not sovereign and has no say in the matter and this would be the darkest idea of all.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

You assume something not intended in that Scripture.
Your original post was about trials, I was posting to assure you that nothing can separate the child of God from the love of God.
Also, I highlighted the important word, "rhetorical", and in the sense I used it, it means that there is no reason to answer the question because it is assumed that as Christian you really do want to grow in Christ.

Yes. There are some misunderstandings here. It seemed as though you were saying that I thought one could be separated from God because trials come along. We might get upset at God sometimes, but being separated is a totally different idea. I answered your rhetorical question because I felt it was important. I stand with my answer. If I need tragedy to grow spiritually, I'll keep the spiritual level I have and spare myself the tragedy. This is what I would prefer. But it's not up to me to decide. God forces me to grow through whatever method is at hand at the time. Even though it may not be what I want. So grow we must - because here we are, in satan's place of dwelling. Ephesians 2:2

Your question seems to be argumentative. There is a huge difference in my mind between God permitting something versus God is sovereign over something. Sovereignty over something means that God id greater over any circumstance. Permission-granting is done in situations like Job went through. Since there is no way to know if this bad thing happened due to the action of Satan being permitted to cause a catastrophe, or as a consequence of sin is unknown by us here. That is why I prefer the term sovereign.

I don't like to argue. Most times I'm trying to figure out what the person thinks. Sometimes I ask to make the person think about what they said. Never to argue. You may answer in a way I don't agree with, but it's your right to believe what you will.

You can read Job again. It's plain what happened. We have a disagreement on "sovereign". So be it. If one is sovereign, it means that NOTHING happens without his permission. Unless it's done in a sneaky way by satan. But that would mean that God is not omnipresent or omniscient. This cannot be.

And regarding Job having sinned. Sinning can bring about consequences. Can sinning bring about the sickness of a child? Please say no. It would mean that God is a mean God and wants to punish us.

1 Thessalonians 5:23

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it

To me this has to do with salvation and I don't understand why it's pertinent to what we're discussing.

My post was not intended to be a personal attack on you; therefore I will not respond to what I perceive may be a personal attack on me.

There we go back to the fact that you misunderstood what I was really stating from the start, and every other statement in my reply seemed as if it was an insult. I regret that you misunderstood what I stated, but I say this clearly:
In the economy of God, none of the suffering of a child of God while on earth is wasted. If it were not so that everything that happens to us is a part of His plan of sanctification so that we may become more Christ-like.

If there was no part of the sudden death of our daughter's at age 22, six weeks after giving birth to her daughter, that was not designed to bring me closer to Jesus, it would mean that God was capricious, and not sovereign

I've been here over 4 months and have received a personal attack only once and it wasn't from you. I also did not intend a personal attack since that's not what I'm here for. (I reserve those for my husband!)

I do apologize for any personal misunderstanding. I do agree with you that nothing on earth is wasted. We are to USE whatever comes our way for the glory of God. It may even be difficult at times, but He does give us the strength to bear what we need to bear and it must be within us to find a way to use the bad for the good. I don't understand well if it was your daughter or granddaughter that passed on to be with the Lord, but it was a disasterous situation indeed as seen from an earthly view. And we live on earth, so it will always be seen as from an earthly view. It's up to us to swallow and accept and deal with, and continue. I have problems of my own within my family and speak from experience and not ideaology.

I find it difficult to understand why we're here. What it's all about. Where we're headed. What plan God has.
We weren't meant to know everything or it would have been made more clear. I admire your strength of conviction and I pray God helps us to continue in our path with Him and toward Him.

Wondering

 

[Brother Mike]

Hi Mike,
I'm not one to debate and here's why. Look at your reply and also By Grace's. It's really difficult to discuss spiritual matters. I like it though, that's why I'm here. But one could be misunderstood, which is easy. We don't know each other and can only read this written word.

So I'll say this: I agree with a lot of what you say and disagree with some of it.

You say you know Job and God had nothing to do with it. God ALLOWED satan to do his dirty work with Job.
Please read the story again. Job 1:12 God puts everything material that Job owns in the hands of satan - that means satan could do whatever he wanted to with Job's material wealth. Then check Job 2:6 God now puts Job's physical condition in the hands of satan too. Then God goes on to tell Job how little he is, Job 38:4 In the end, Job surrenders. God is God. What else is there to do? Are we not to accept what befalls us? Are we greater than God?

Mathew 6:13 Lead us not into temptation. It doesn't mean what you're talking about but I'll address that -
How is God leading us out of temptation (you're understanding of what it means) if evil is happening to us?
I know plenty of un-believers who don't have the problems I have. Does grace not fall on all? Does evil not effect all? Do you feel so protected from evil? The sun shines on all and the rain falls on all. God is not here to make our life great - He's here because He's the creator and would His creation (us) to worship Him and to be with Him in heaven. I don't read anywhere that we have any guarantee that this world will not affect us. Only that He'll help us to bear it. So I agree with you 100% there.

So, yes, I have hope in HIM when bad things come up. But it's useless to say that He doesn't ALLOW them to happen. It's like saying He's not sovereign and has no say in the matter and this would be the darkest idea of all.

W

If I say God had nothing to do with Job, Nor did God give permission to the devil to get Job. Then it's time to ask how is that, show me. It's not the time to start giving scriptures and not agreeing. Because that is in your mind, planted by the devil and the wicked churches that teach lies about God........ guess what, you get to stay in bondage to anything the devil likes.

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

So then God, who knows to do good, has the power to split oceans, and crumble mountains sits idly by not doing good when He could have stepped in and helped. So God must be according to His own Word one of the biggest sinners there is.

Unless James is a lair and did not really hear from the Holy Spirit when he wrote His epistle

James is a liar, God is a sinner. Pick one.

Your Idea of Sovereign is God does what He wants, to who He wants and when he wants despite what he said. It's a dark Idea we don't have a outlaw for a god.

My idea of a Sovereign God (Though Sovereign is not scripture anywhere) Is God always keeps his Word, will never break it, is Honorable, and will not cross over what he established, even if He has to sorrowfully watch us be destroyed for lack of knowledge
He never failed anyone who trusted in Him, never did not keep what he said, Always performed His Word to those that believe in Him.

so keep having your issues, If you think for a second God has anything to do with it, then you just cut all your faith from the help line. Jesus came to give us life and give it abundantly. He came to destroy the Works of the devil and that is Killing, stealing and destroying the quality of your life and peace of mind. (John 10:10) (1 Jon 3:8)

So Judge God, like the wicked practice of the Church is. Skip the rest of scriptures for what you want to believe.

Elihu the only one that spoke right about God and said this To Job.

Job 34:10 Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
Job 34:11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

You think giving the green light to a disobedient angelic servant to murder someone's children is not evil. To take their things away, to make them sick. That is not wicked, perfectly OK.

That only works in church and bible discussions. It don't work in life outside of church. The Loss of a child is painful and haunting. To have everything taken from you in One day and made so sick you can't hardly move. In real life, that is wicked, it's evil.
We can't even be honest when we talk "Church" Unless you actually believe Evil is really good.

Jon 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

See God's real heart here? He did not want to destroy Nineveh through judgement. He even Helped Jonah who was being difficult.
God gives rain to the just for their cattle, crops and He gives rain to the unjust the same.

Luk_6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Go listen to By Grace. he has your answers. Job Gave the devil a rightful place.

I am done here.

Mike.

 

[GodsGrace]

If I say God had nothing to do with Job, Nor did God give permission to the devil to get Job. Then it's time to ask how is that, show me. It's not the time to start giving scriptures and not agreeing. Because that is in your mind, planted by the devil and the wicked churches that teach lies about God........ guess what, you get to stay in bondage to anything the devil likes.

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

So then God, who knows to do good, has the power to split oceans, and crumble mountains sits idly by not doing good when He could have stepped in and helped. So God must be according to His own Word one of the biggest sinners there is.

Unless James is a lair and did not really hear from the Holy Spirit when he wrote His epistle

James is a liar, God is a sinner. Pick one.

Your Idea of Sovereign is God does what He wants, to who He wants and when he wants despite what he said. It's a dark Idea we don't have a outlaw for a god.

My idea of a Sovereign God (Though Sovereign is not scripture anywhere) Is God always keeps his Word, will never break it, is Honorable, and will not cross over what he established, even if He has to sorrowfully watch us be destroyed for lack of knowledge
He never failed anyone who trusted in Him, never did not keep what he said, Always performed His Word to those that believe in Him.

so keep having your issues, If you think for a second God has anything to do with it, then you just cut all your faith from the help line. Jesus came to give us life and give it abundantly. He came to destroy the Works of the devil and that is Killing, stealing and destroying the quality of your life and peace of mind. (John 10:10) (1 Jon 3:8)

So Judge God, like the wicked practice of the Church is. Skip the rest of scriptures for what you want to believe.

Elihu the only one that spoke right about God and said this To Job.

Job 34:10 Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
Job 34:11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

You think giving the green light to a disobedient angelic servant to murder someone's children is not evil. To take their things away, to make them sick. That is not wicked, perfectly OK.

That only works in church and bible discussions. It don't work in life outside of church. The Loss of a child is painful and haunting. To have everything taken from you in One day and made so sick you can't hardly move. In real life, that is wicked, it's evil.
We can't even be honest when we talk "Church" Unless you actually believe Evil is really good.

Jon 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

See God's real heart here? He did not want to destroy Nineveh through judgement. He even Helped Jonah who was being difficult.
God gives rain to the just for their cattle, crops and He gives rain to the unjust the same.

Luk_6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

Go listen to By Grace. he has your answers. Job Gave the devil a rightful place.

I am done here.

Mike.

If my post to you could be so misunderstood, I may just have to stop posting.
Your reply makes no sense to me at all.
I have nothing to say.

W

 

[By Grace]

If my post to you could be so misunderstood, I may just have to stop posting.
Your reply makes no sense to me at all.
I have nothing to say.

W

Hello wondering,

If and when you decide to post again, I urge you to consider what the main difficulties that both Mike and I had. We were not "arguing theology" because that is really not what you wanted. Each of us were attempting to clarify what you did say, and from that effort, there came much more misunderstanding. That is not good.

I cannot speal for BM, but if you reoly and do noy become upset at the efforts we have made in atampting to clarify what you are statings, then we can have a fruitful discussion. Whatever happens next depends uopn you,

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello wondering,

If and when you decide to post again, I urge you to consider what the main difficulties that both Mike and I had. We were not "arguing theology" because that is really not what you wanted. Each of us were attempting to clarify what you did say, and from that effort, there came much more misunderstanding. That is not good.

I cannot speal for BM, but if you reoly and do noy become upset at the efforts we have made in atampting to clarify what you are statings, then we can have a fruitful discussion. Whatever happens next depends uopn you,

Hi By Grace,
I said way back at the beginning that I don't like to debate back and forth. I like to state what I believe and then not go on for pages trying to convince someone that they're wrong.

Your reply and Brother Mike's reply show that I was totally misunderstood. I'm sure it was my wording or how I sounded about something, or whatever. The written word is not easy.

So what am I supposed to do? Go back and try to explain to two different people what I REALLY meant? See. It seems futile to me. If I make a statement, and you understand it but don't agree - that's fine. We're adult people here and I don't like to argue. If you don't even UNDERSTAND me, how do I continue?

I'm not upset with anyone. I'm sorry I wasn't understood and I'm saying it could be my own fault.
I don't even remember what we were discussing!

In Christ
W

 

[By Grace]

Hi By Grace,
I said way back at the beginning that I don't like to debate back and forth. I like to state what I believe and then not go on for pages trying to convince someone that they're wrong.
<SNIP>
I'm not upset with anyone. I'm sorry I wasn't understood and I'm saying it could be my own fault.
I don't even remember what we were discussing!

I am posting this in a gentle manner, and not being sarcastic, or rude.
Could you add something like this as a "signature"? I am not sure they have signatures here, but it is worth a try:
"Please do not respond to this because tomorrow I may feel differently, or else I will not remember what I posted! :-P

I think that that sort of thing, an attempt at self-deprecating humor would keep others who like me wished you to clarify something that does not seem to be what we are used to seeing on any discussion board away from you in the future. Do you think that will work?

 

[GodsGrace]

I am posting this in a gentle manner, and not being sarcastic, or rude.
Could you add something like this as a "signature"? I am not sure they have signatures here, but it is worth a try:
"Please do not respond to this because tomorrow I may feel differently, or else I will not remember what I posted! :-P

I think that that sort of thing, an attempt at self-deprecating humor would keep others who like me wished you to clarify something that does not seem to be what we are used to seeing on any discussion board away from you in the future. Do you think that will work?

For Grace
I wasn't being humorous. I was being serious. I'd have to go back and reread what we were discussing and it seems to me the will or motivation is gone by now. As proved by your response above, instead of going back to our conversation...
But, once again, you HAVE misunderstood me...
Plus, I don't know what people are used to on discussion boards. I've only been here 4 months and it's been nice and I enjoy it.
Sorry if I'm not experienced enough for ya'.

W

 

[By Grace]

For Grace
I wasn't being humorous. I was being serious. I'd have to go back and reread what we were discussing and it seems to me the will or motivation is gone by now. As proved by your response above, instead of going back to our conversation...
But, once again, you HAVE misunderstood me...
Plus, I don't know what people are used to on discussion boards. I've only been here 4 months and it's been nice and I enjoy it.
Sorry if I'm not experienced enough for ya'.
W

Do not worry, Wondering. It is all good between us. I sincerely hope that I did not upset you, but that comment was designed to prevent any future misunderstandings, not to cause them. Gotta go, and take Fido out, then to bed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do not worry, Wondering. It is all good between us. I sincerely hope that I did not upset you, but that comment was designed to prevent any future misunderstandings, not to cause them. Gotta go, and take Fido out, then to bed.

Thanks for the nice reply.
It's 2:40 a.m. here so I'll say good-night too.

Be seeing you around...

 

[stovebolts]

God is righteous. Everything God does is very necessary and has extraordinary meaning.We don't know God's will sometimes,so we can misunderstand God.I think it is not bad thing that God lets bad things happen to good people.For example Job, When bad things happen to Job,God wants to test him.And when he stood testimony and received more the blessings of God.

The purpose of Jobs suffering was not to test him. In the same way, the suffering of Jesus was not to test him.
The Hebrew writer says that Jesus was perfected through his suffering, and in a similar way, Job says that prior to his suffering, he only knew of the Lord, but now he knows the Lord.
It's about relationship, and getting rid of what separates us from a relationship with God

 

[Hospes]

Two parables and my point:

If I grab a two-year-old girl's arm and jerk it out of its socket, I will - after being beaten senseless by her father - be arrested by the police. If I do the exact same act in pulling the little girl from the path a car travelling 80 mph, I am a hero.

If I needed to eat beans and rice for a year in order to place money in an investment giving a return at the end of the year to the extent my whole family was financially independent forever, then I'd joyfully eat beans and rice for a year.

I believe the suffering God causes in his children's lives is Him acting in order to do good for them. When I am with Him in glory, I think the eternal results of the temporal suffering he has put me through will be part of why I will have reason to praise him throughout eternity. I believe my temporal sufferings have unimaginable eternal returns.

 

[stovebolts]

Two parables and my point:

If I grab a two-year-old girl's arm and jerk it out of its socket, I will - after being beaten senseless by her father - be arrested by the police. If I do the exact same act in pulling the little girl from the path a car travelling 80 mph, I am a hero.

If I needed to eat beans and rice for a year in order to place money in an investment giving a return at the end of the year to the extent my whole family was financially independent forever, then I'd joyfully eat beans and rice for a year.

I believe the suffering God causes in his children's lives is Him acting in order to do good for them. When I am with Him in glory, I think the eternal results of the temporal suffering he has put me through will be part of why I will have reason to praise him throughout eternity. I believe my temporal sufferings have unimaginable eternal returns.

That's probably one of the better analogies I've ever heard. Kudos, I like it

 

[Mike]

Ravi Zacharias has always been one of my favorite Christian thinkers. This video is a few years old, but it's stood out to me as particularly profound when it comes to the topic of suffering. I'd encourage anyone to watch it. If you're able to let it play in the background and stay your attention on what he says, that's good too.

BTW, Hi Jeff!!

 

[Hospes]

Who's Jeff?

 

[Mike]

Who's Jeff?

StoveBolts, lol

 

[GodsGrace]

Ravi Zacharias has always been one of my favorite Christian thinkers. This video is a few years old, but it's stood out to me as particularly profound when it comes to the topic of suffering. I'd encourage anyone to watch it. If you're able to let it play in the background and stay your attention on what he says, that's good too.

BTW, Hi Jeff!!

Hi Mike
Watched the video. Of course, it's the old story. Truth is that we don't know.
I like what Zacharias said about how there's an ultimate pattern and we won't know the answer till we stand before God.

I think, though, that the title to this thread might be wrong. I know there's a book with this title written by a Rabbi and I have read it, but maybe the title should just be Why Do Bad Things Happen.
Bad things don't only happen to good people.
Or does the question imply that bad things SHOULDN'T happen to good people?
Of course that can't be it. It would be a false premise if this is what it signifies..
Do we expect more protection from God because we're Christian?
Should we have more protection?
And what about the Word of Faith movement. What happens when one doesn't get what he feels he "deserves." Or what he prayed for and is expecting.
Does this lessen his faith in God or make it disappear altogether?
Is it possible for us to expect too much?

Wondering

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Mike !
I didn't get a chance to watch the video you posted, but I enjoy the author, so I'll have to check it out later.

wondering
I see you are a practical thinker, and I like that in a person. You brought up some good topics, and I believe the Lord will guide you.

Have you ever considered that not receiving the answer was the answer God has provided? Sometimes we need to rail against an unmovable object before our will decreases and we become open to a new way of viewing the world around us.

In that sense, bad things don't really happen to us... We simply don't enjoy the pruning, so we label them as bad. Like children, we don't always like the guidance of our Heavenly Father.

As for suffering, we are not above Jesus who as the Hebrew writer wrote, Christ was perfected through his suffering. To your point, as Christians, we are not immune to suffering but what we do have, is a God who is not only in touch with our suffering, but is actually in tune with it. In tune with it so much, that we actually share in Chists own suffering.

Each person is working out their own salvation, and we are guided to do so through fear and trembling. The road is narrow, and we are called to be a light that illuminates the path. In other words, were in this journey together. Nobody walks alone.

 

[iLOVE]

Jesus tells us why we will suffer in John 15:18-21 NKJV, 18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me.

The Apostle Paul says the same thing but in different words in Philippians 1:29 NKJV, "For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake..."

to be con't