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Why I can't believe in rapture theory
- Thread starter joseph lentz
- Start date
ezrider
Member
Welcome Brett, I see this is your first post. I'm not going to take the time to respond to each of your points. I will just say for now that your understanding of the events of Daniel's 70th week are way off target. The prophecy of the 70 weeks was a prophecy about the coming of Jesus Christ, Messiah the Prince. It is NOT a prophecy about the coming of the anti-christ. It was Jesus who died and was resurrected in the middle of the week. It was He who confirmed the covenant with many for one week. Jesus preached the NEW COVENANT, the gospel of the Kingdom; and in the midst of the week, He was sacrificed on the cross, confirming the covenant in His own blood.
If the 70th week has not ended, then Christ could not be declared victorious, and you would have no hope.
Some people get confused because Daniel 9:27 contains the word desolate and the word abominations, but Daniel 9:27 does not speak about the Abomination of Desolation, which is actually referenced in Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11.
Dan 9:27 And he (who is the “he’ here? - hint, it ain’t Jesus.) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (is this seven years?): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (When will this be? the middle of the week?)
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (Is this not the woman of Rev 12:6?)Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (Is this the image of the beast or antichrist?)
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Dan 9:27 And he (who is the “he’ here? - hint, it ain’t Jesus.) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (is this seven years?): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (When will this be? the middle of the week?)
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: (Is this the image of the beast or antichrist?)
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
[who is the “he’ here? - hint, it ain’t Jesus...]
That would be the anti christ, right?
[shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (is this seven years?)]
That's almost exactly seven years.
[and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. (When will this be? the middle of the week?)]
Sure sounds like it, the middle of the week or 3.5 years. Then it is the great tribulation which goes on for another 3.5 years...then Jesus comes back just in time.
ezrider
Member
Lo, I come. In the volume of the book it is written of me.
Who said that? Was it about the Anti-Christ?
Jeremiah 31:31-33
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,
that I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand
to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the Lord,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
Luke 1:67-73
And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel;
for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us
in the house of his servant David;
As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets,
which have been since the world began:
That we should be saved from our enemies,
and from the hand of all that hate us;
To perform the mercy promised to our fathers,
and to remember his holy covenant;
The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
Hebrews 1:15-18
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Matthew 26:26-28
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Daniel 9:26-27
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The "He" is Messiah, Messiah the Prince. Jesus Christ and the covenant promised to Abraham by an oath, a covenant confirmed with the blood of Christ. A covenant confirmed with many for one week. The second half of the week the announcement of the covenant continued to be confirmed by many through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I might add, under great tribulation.
Who said that? Was it about the Anti-Christ?
Jeremiah 31:31-33
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,
that I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
in the day that I took them by the hand
to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake,
although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the Lord,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts;
and will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
Luke 1:67-73
And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel;
for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us
in the house of his servant David;
As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets,
which have been since the world began:
That we should be saved from our enemies,
and from the hand of all that hate us;
To perform the mercy promised to our fathers,
and to remember his holy covenant;
The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
Hebrews 1:15-18
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Matthew 26:26-28
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Daniel 9:26-27
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The "He" is Messiah, Messiah the Prince. Jesus Christ and the covenant promised to Abraham by an oath, a covenant confirmed with the blood of Christ. A covenant confirmed with many for one week. The second half of the week the announcement of the covenant continued to be confirmed by many through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I might add, under great tribulation.
In a study I have, Gene Hawkins make this following comment concerning the antichrist.
“In the middle of the week as we have seen in Daniel and as we're also going to see later on here, the antichrist is going to set up his image, and that means that all religious worship is going to cease, and all worship is going to be directed toward the antichrist.”
It is exactly seven years using the Jewish Calendar of 360 days per year, and much of scripture may start making more sense.
Now just to throw another tidbit into the mix is Dan:13-14.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (What happened to the 2520 days, or seven years? This is 250 days short of seven years.)
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
This begins at thirty days before passover of the year the temptation to come upon all the world will begin, and endure until the middle of the seven years prophesied. I hope I made this understandable, but there is so much more to the context, facts, and figures than first meets our eyes when we go through it.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:26-27
- the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The "he" in verse 27, refers to the prince who is to come, the prince of the people who destroyed the city and sanctuary.
Do you believe Jesus was Roman and Gentile, or Jew, the King of the Jews?
JLB
The great tribulation shall not come until Gods last testimony has been completed. Rev 11 1260 days for if any in those days has even a shred of love for God they will believe. The testimony is given in Jerusalem. IT is the beast who is finally allowed to kill the two witnesses. those who take joy in the killing of the two who serve the Lord of all the earth will be deceived into following the beast. The beast is now revealed in the world and Gods last warning has been completed. For a loving God warns and warns upfront. The last testimony 1260 days can't be stopped by any power until it is completed. Then the beast who was released at the sounding of the 5th trump call of God will be allowed to over power and kill those two witnesses. the false prophet who acts in behalf of the beast will set up an image of the beast and force people to worship the beast and is image. Our religion will be outlawed for a short time like it was in the beginning with Rome any many will lose their lives by refusing to worship the beast and his image. If any willfully worship the beast and his image their place will be the 2nd death. So christians will refuse to deny Jesus and save their lives even thought their experience the death of the body. Those who try to save their lives will lose their souls by worshipping the beast will earn the 2nd death. REV 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken. AT the end of that testimony the beast is in the world. Those who remained faithful to Jesus will rise at the resurrection as noted in the 1st resurrection which is the resurrection of the saints.
The seven year great tribulation, which is not found anywhere in scripture, was derived by mans misinterpretation of Daniel 9:24-27. This is what the Bible clearly reveals about the seventy weeks. From vs.24 to vs.27 was seventy weeks or 490 days beginning with Ezra, Ezra chapter 3-6, rebuilding the temple to the time of the Messiah (Jesus Christ) being fulfilled in His birth, death and resurrection. In a sense it was a literal and spiritual temple that was being built. Ezra was teaching the people of the spiritual temple of God that indwelled in all that believed in God and of the coming of Messiah. There was actually a five hundred year span from Ezra till the birth of Jesus that God shut himself off from Israel because of their transgressions towards the Lord, Malachi Chapter 4, but saved a remnant that would believe in the coming of Messiah, Isaiah 10. As still today, God still waits for National Israel to repent and believe in the name of Jesus as they still follow Judaism
Daniel 9:24-27 the Vision of the Seventy Weeks
Vs. 24 this verse shows us that the timing from Ezra to the cross was 490 days as within that time Ezra was reestablishing the law in Jerusalem until Jesus had fulfilled the end of transgression, made an end to sin, made reconciliation for iniquity and bring everlasting righteousness and to seal up the prophecy to make an end to the law through the cross.
Vs. 25 from the time of the cross, which also means the last days, which includes what some like to separate and call “The Great Tribulation”, which is not mentioned anywhere in scripture and is not a separate event after the elect of God are caught up, but as the last days so we are in tribulation times until the end of the world as we know it, Acts 2:17; Hebrews 1:1,2; Matthew 24:4-31; Mark 13:24-31; Luke 21:5-36. These are just some of the scriptures that support that we will go through all things of Rev Chapter 6-21. Everyone will have opportunity to come unto salvation through Jesus Christ if they would only believe until the door of salvation is closed when Jesus calls us and we meet him in the clouds, which after this time no one can be saved, Matthew 25:10.
Vs.26 after 434 years that end in the year AD29 shall Messiah be cut off. Jesus was crucified after he was baptized in AD 29 three and a half years later. Jesus was cut off (killed) by the people of the prince, which means National Israel or other words the Pharisees, Sanhedrin and the high priest that destroy the city and the sanctuary (meaning Christ) and the end thereof shall be with a flood (Gods wrath) that will put an end to abominations by desolation or in other words a ruin to evil deeds. Daniel 9:27 explains the definitions of desolation of abominations or the ruin of evil deeds. There is no actual Desolation of Abominations where the so called Antichrist will take a literal throne, but the desolation will be when the son of perdition, being the false prophet, tries to take his throne in Jerusalem, Daniel 11:36-45. Gods’ word never defines one great Antichrist, but says there are many antichrists, 1John2:18; 11 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Revelation 11:7. The seven years that some call the seven year tribulation means three and a half years beginning with the first six seals being the beginning of sorrows (first woe). The last three and a half years starting with the (second woe) with the sounding of the first trumpet and ending with the seventh trumpet that includes everything else written in Revelations that includes the time of Christ return for His Bride in Rev 19, up to the end when Satan is cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet and ends with the new Jerusalem being ushered down as then we will be with the Lord forever.
Vs.27 the 70th seven began with Christ baptism in AD 29 and three years later at the end of the first half of the 70th seven sacrifices and offering ceased because Christ hung on the cross. From the giving of the law in 458BC when Ezra went to establish the law, or to rebuild the spiritual city right to the cross where the first 69 sevens. The 70th seven is from the time of the cross until Jesus comes back in the air to call his Bride home and for the overspreading of abominations he will make desolate, or make an end to all who would not believe.
Daniel 9:24-27 the Vision of the Seventy Weeks
Vs. 24 this verse shows us that the timing from Ezra to the cross was 490 days as within that time Ezra was reestablishing the law in Jerusalem until Jesus had fulfilled the end of transgression, made an end to sin, made reconciliation for iniquity and bring everlasting righteousness and to seal up the prophecy to make an end to the law through the cross.
Vs. 25 from the time of the cross, which also means the last days, which includes what some like to separate and call “The Great Tribulation”, which is not mentioned anywhere in scripture and is not a separate event after the elect of God are caught up, but as the last days so we are in tribulation times until the end of the world as we know it, Acts 2:17; Hebrews 1:1,2; Matthew 24:4-31; Mark 13:24-31; Luke 21:5-36. These are just some of the scriptures that support that we will go through all things of Rev Chapter 6-21. Everyone will have opportunity to come unto salvation through Jesus Christ if they would only believe until the door of salvation is closed when Jesus calls us and we meet him in the clouds, which after this time no one can be saved, Matthew 25:10.
Vs.26 after 434 years that end in the year AD29 shall Messiah be cut off. Jesus was crucified after he was baptized in AD 29 three and a half years later. Jesus was cut off (killed) by the people of the prince, which means National Israel or other words the Pharisees, Sanhedrin and the high priest that destroy the city and the sanctuary (meaning Christ) and the end thereof shall be with a flood (Gods wrath) that will put an end to abominations by desolation or in other words a ruin to evil deeds. Daniel 9:27 explains the definitions of desolation of abominations or the ruin of evil deeds. There is no actual Desolation of Abominations where the so called Antichrist will take a literal throne, but the desolation will be when the son of perdition, being the false prophet, tries to take his throne in Jerusalem, Daniel 11:36-45. Gods’ word never defines one great Antichrist, but says there are many antichrists, 1John2:18; 11 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Revelation 11:7. The seven years that some call the seven year tribulation means three and a half years beginning with the first six seals being the beginning of sorrows (first woe). The last three and a half years starting with the (second woe) with the sounding of the first trumpet and ending with the seventh trumpet that includes everything else written in Revelations that includes the time of Christ return for His Bride in Rev 19, up to the end when Satan is cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet and ends with the new Jerusalem being ushered down as then we will be with the Lord forever.
Vs.27 the 70th seven began with Christ baptism in AD 29 and three years later at the end of the first half of the 70th seven sacrifices and offering ceased because Christ hung on the cross. From the giving of the law in 458BC when Ezra went to establish the law, or to rebuild the spiritual city right to the cross where the first 69 sevens. The 70th seven is from the time of the cross until Jesus comes back in the air to call his Bride home and for the overspreading of abominations he will make desolate, or make an end to all who would not believe.
ezrider
Member
Just curious, but how do you perceive or define the desolate? What do you think it means to be desolate? For the overspreading of abominations he will make it desolate. What do you think this means?
n2thelight
Member
Which trump, vial or seal does the rapture happen?
This means when Christ returns He will destroy all that the beast and false prophet has built for their own deceitful deception that causes a great falling away from truth as the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and the remnant being the political leaders in every nation that were under the influence of the beast and false prophet will be slain by Christ, not by an actual sword, but only speaking their destruction, Rev 19:11-21.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Jesus will return sometime after the seventh trump is sounded and the harlot of modern day Babylon is exposed, Rev 17,18,19.
The beasts reign is listed in the book of Rev as 42months. The two witness's shall testify for 1260 days. AT some point in time during their testimony the angel of the abyss is released (5th trump). ITs the beast that overpowers and kills the two witnesses that no one else could do. For fire came down from heaven (self evident the fire is from God) who will not allow the last warnings/testmony to be stopped until they have been completeted. 1260 days. So then the beast is in the world an the great tribulation shall begin. So if i consider the 1260 days and the reign of the best together its about 7 years. But from the killing of the two witnesses until the lord who destroys the beast at His coming it will be less than 4 years.
Hi Randy, can you give us the scriptures for all that you said here, Ty
ezrider
Member
I asked you what you thought it meant to become desolate. Your response indicates to me you see the desolation or the desolate as the destruction of the beast and the false prophet. You can correct me if I misunderstood you. But I see the desolate as something a bit different. Would you consider it?
For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate. The "it" in this case refers to Jerusalem, the city of the sanctuary. For the overspreading of abominations he shall make Jerusalem desolate. Now when we think of desolate places, we might think of Death Valley or something like that; something barren and inhospitable. Jerusalem and the sanctuary were destroyed in 70 AD, but how was it made desolate?
For she saith in her heart, I sit a Queen, and am no widow... (Rev18:7)
She still believes she sits a Queen, but her husband is dead. She doesn't believe she's a widow, she has no husband, she has become desolate.
Galatians 4:21-27
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Isaiah 54:1
Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear;
break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child:
for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord.
Romans 7:1-4
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For the overspreading of abominations, how did he make it desolate?
ezrider, The "it" is Jerusalem as meaning the beast and the false prophet who will take over the original Temple mount where the Mosque now stands as they desecrate it (abomination to God) . What Jesus destroys when He returns are the beast, false prophet and all the kings (political leaders) that have bowed down to the beast system causing a great falling away from Gods truth and then Jesus will make the land unfit for anyone to exist there, Isaiah 14:12-23; Rev 19; Rev 21. (Note: this will be a world wide destruction that includes all the land in every nation.)
ezrider
Member
Well, from your response I can see your interest lays with the beast and the false prophet. I posted the scriptures for you to consider, but I guess they didn't mean anything to you. Oh well, maybe someone else will consider them in context with being desolate and give an opinion.