Why Jews do not believe in Christ

[DivineNames]

Re: i53

I will be referring to the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) Old Testament.

Let me quote from that translation-

"He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not." (Isaiah 53:3)


When was Jesus "acquainted with disease"? When did he ever suffer from disease?

 

[einstein]

The name of the Creator is written with a hyphen so as to preclude the possibility of defacement or erasement of the name at a later date, even if done unintentionally. This is to conform with Deut 12:3-4.

Divine Names has already provided you with a proper translation from the Hebrew of Isa 9:6. The prophet is speaking about an event that has already occured. A careful analysis of the chapter (not just taking one passage out of context and then mistranslating it) clearly precludes this being in reference to Jesus.

The same holds true for Is 7:14 which is properly translated as follows: Therefore, the L-rd, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold THE YOUNG WOMAN IS WITH CHILD, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanu'el.

The reference is to a definite young maiden already pregnant at the time of the conversation Isaiah has with Ahaz and the sign is the immanent birth described in the following passages to assure the safety of the Ahaz over the 2 kings plotting against him. The KJV plays fast and loose with the proper translation omitting the definite article (THE) and replacing it with the indefinite (a) and incorrectly translating almah as virgin. Furthermore the context makes no sense as the birth of someone 7 centuries in the future would not be much of a reassuring sign to Ahaz, now would it?

I am rushed for time but plan to add further to my post re Isa 53 ASAP.

 

[einstein]

isa 53

(cont'd)

Your question regarding the afflictions suffered by the righteous remnant betrays your misunderstanding of the Jewish perspective of righteousness as taught in the Torah. To be righteous is not to be sinless or to be perfect. No mortal or nation can achieve this. David, Noah, and Moses were deemed righteous, but all sinned. In the same way corporate Israel sins too and is punished accordingly. It is the striving towards Hashem and the best efforts to follow His commandments, to seek justice and act mercifully among other things which constitute righteousness in Judaism. When Israel sins, the Creator often uses the Gentiles as His "rod" to punish Israel. At times however, the Gentile nations outdid themselves in punishment of Israel more than was necessary but Hashem will take consideration of this at the end of days.

Is 40:2 Speak to the heart of Jerusalem can call to her for she has become full from her host, for her iniquity has been appeased for she has taken from the hand of the Lord DOUBLE for all her sins.

Israel is descrisbed elsewhere in the Tanach as being despised, (Isa 49:7, Neh 3:36), forsaken (Isa 61:15) and afflicted with adversities often likened to injuries and diseases (Jer 10:9). The term "ish machovot" a man of pains is an idiomatic Hebrew expression indicating a chronic and ongoing condition, not a duration of a few hours or days. As such being applied to Israel it accurately describes the centuries of pain inflicted on the Jewish people which represents the sin the of the Gentile nations.

Read Is 49:3,7-8,13-15 and Isa 62:2-4,12 which come before and after chp 53 adn you will see that these chapters follow the same theme: The Gentile nations despised and afflicted Hashem's servant which is the collective Israel, not an individual. Israel will be vindicated and exalted however in the Messianic age to come. "...I will make you land everlasting pride, the joy of every generation."

This answers your question regarding the exaltation and final redemption of corporate Israel which happens in the messianic era.

to be continued.

 

[bhakthi]

Re: i53

I will be referring to the Jewish Publication Society (JPS) Old Testament.

Let me quote from that translation-

"He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not." (Isaiah 53:3)


When was Jesus "acquainted with disease"? When did he ever suffer from disease?

'a man of sorrows'
Yes ,Here Isaiah is speaking about a man of sorrows.If it were about a nation -Israel. the prophet wouldn't use the term ' a man.' Later in the same chapter it says "He was cut off." Israel was never cut off as a nation.
This is excatly what Daniel spoke about.
"From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince will be seven weeks and 62 weeks. It will be rebuilt with a plaza and a moat, but in difficult times.26 After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing.The people of the coming prince
will destroy the city and the sanctuary." Daniel ;9:9 Daniel spoke about the time the Messiah Prince would come and he came.Just like Zechariah also said,
"Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion!Shout in triumph, Daughter Jerusalem!
See, your King is coming to you;He is righteous and victorious,
humble and riding on a donkey,on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'Zachariah:9:9
Jesus came to the second temple just as the prophets Daniel and Zechariah spoke very clearly about it.
Note that if a Messiah came today this will not happen .He will choose a modern vehicle.Probably an armored one.
About 37 years after the Messiah was cut off the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans.

It cannot be said about a nation that " He was acquainted with grief "
It is about a person.Here in Isaiah 53 some one was cut off

 

[bhakthi]

" He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet He did not open His mouth.
Like a lamb led to the slaughter
and like a sheep silent before her shearers,
He did not open His mouth. " Isaiah 53

It doesn't sound like the nation of Israel .Israel has always been rebellious.
If you read the Prophets and Moses you could understand how this statement misfits Israel.It was about Jesus the Messiah who was taken for crucifixion the Prophet wrote these words.

Jesus said, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John;8: 31,32

 

[einstein]

isa 53

Bhakti:.In response to what you have quoted read the following which is quite a propos:

Psa 44:11ff- You make us retreat from the adversary, and our enemies plunder for themselves. You deliver us AS SHEEP TO BE EATEN, and you scatter us among the nations. You sell Your people without gain, and You did not increase their price. You make us a REPROACH to our neighbors, a SCORN and a DERISION to those around us. You make us a byword among the nations, a (cause for) shaking the head among the kingdoms. All day long, my disgrace is before me, and the SHAME OF MY FACE has covered me. From the voice of the one who taunts and blasphemes, because of an enemy and an avenger. All this has befallen us and we have not forgotten You, neither have fwe betrayed Your covenant. Our hear has not turned back, nor have our steps turned away from Your path. Even when You crushed us in a place of serpents, and You covered us with darkness....FOR IT IS FOR YOUR SAKE THAT WE ARE KILLED ALL THE TIME, THAT WE ARE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP FOR THE SLAUGHTER.

As stated previously, this psalm summarizes many of the themes in Is 53 which are often repeated in the Hebrew Bible describing the oppression, slaughter and degradation of Israel through the centuries by the nations while Israel is compared to sheep for the slaughter.

 

[einstein]

is 53

Another question posed was wrt doing not doing violence and being deceitful. This question implies a state of perfection impossible to achieve at all times for humanity. Nevertheless, the Hebrew Bible has this to state wrt righteous Israel in regards to their behaviour throughout the vast majority of their history:

Zeph 3:13- The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice, nor speak lies, neith shall deceitful speech be found in their mouths, for they shall gaze and lie down with no one to cause them to shudder.

Your question wrt healing the nations is answered in several ways. In the Tanach exile is described as a wound for the Jewish nation. Yet as Jeremiah states, even in exile and while being afflicted, Israel always prayed (and continues to pray) for the welfare of the host nation.

Jer 29:7- And seek the peace of the city where I have exiled you and pray for it to the L-rd, for in its peace you shall have peace.

Another explanation is the "disease" of the Gentile nations being antisemitism, they will be finally healed of this disease in the messianic age with realization of the error of their ways. This will pave the way to universal peace according to the messianic paradigm.

The final mode of healing is by bringing the recognition of the one Supreme Creator to all nations, ie the universal recognition of Hashem which is also to take place in the messianic era.

It was stated in a previous post that the passages of Isa 53 fit Jesus "perfectly". Is this really true?

First, looking at context of latter chapters of Isaiah and the surrounding chapters, it is obvious that the introduction of Jesus represents a sudden unexpected switch of subject matter, motif and theme not found elsewhere. Additionally, according to Christian interpretation (notwithstanding the faulty translations of most Bibles), themes are introduced which are categorically contradicted in the rest of the Hebrew bible. To anyone approaching the analysis with the least bit of objectivity, does it not make more sense to read the chapter as a continuation of the themes of the surrounding chapters and perhaps a reinforcement of grander themes spelled out elsewhere in the Tanach?

Is 42:19 refers to the servant as being blind and deaf- a metaphorical expression which applies to Israel at times when the nations errs and sins. According to Christian theology however, how can these adjectives apply to Jesus who they hold to be one and same as G-d?

Is 53:3 has the phrase "ish machovot veyedoah choli" ie a man of pains and acquainted with disease. This expression refers to a state of chronic pain and suffering, chronic illness, not just momentary pain for a duration of a few hours or days. Jesus is never described in the GT as being "diseased" or chronically ill.

Is 53:7- talks about the servant not opening his mouth which is contradicted by Mat 27:46, Jn 18:19-23,and Mat 27:50.

Is 53:9 from the Hebrew reads "And he gave his grave to the wicked and to the wealthy in his DEATHS (plural). The meaning here is that the servant was buried as if a common criminal, and at times executed because of his wealth. That is why the term "bemotav" (deaths) can apply to corporate Israel - a collective unity composed of thousands. The GT does not describe this state of affairs at all. Jesus dies among thieves and is buried in a rich man's tomb without any possessions. Again an individual cannot have multiple deaths. The term for in his death is "bemoto" but that is not what is stated in the original Hebrew.

Also was Jesus nonviolent as described by the prophet. Not according to Jn 2:15 where he overtuns the tables of the moneylenders and takes a whip of cords in his hands, or according to Lk 19:27 where he commands those who do not accept him to be brought before him to be slain before his eyes.

What about deceit? Read Mark 16: 17-18. Do we see the followers of Jesus today safely drinking poison as he promised, and truly healing the sick without any recognized medical knowledge and experience?

One could continue but I will stop at Is 53:10 where the proper translation says that IF the servant's soul acknowledges guilt he shall see his biological offspring (zera) and prolong his days. Did Jesus have progeny? Obviously not. The term zera in the Hebrew bible only refers to biological descendants not spiritual followers the term for which would be banim. Did Jesus have a long life? Most scholars estimate his age at death to be about 32/33. The fact that Christians claim a long life following the resurrection cannot apply here. The Hebrew term"yaarich yammin" refers to prolongation of mortal life on earth. The notion of eternal life is expressed in the Hebrew bible as "hayei olam" which is not used in this passage.

 

[einstein]

is 53

Your posts indicate that A) You have no knowledge of Hebrew and B) You are totally relying on the KJB to reach your faulty conclusions.

"Ish machovot" means a man of pains, not a man of sorrows. The fact that the servant is referred to in the singular with the poetic metaphor of a man in no way rules out the nation which is a collective entity. In fact Isaiah refers to the servant both in the singular and plural many times.

Dan 9 has nothing to do with THE MESSIAH. In fact it deals with 2 annointed ones and the timelines have nothing to do with Jesus.

 

[einstein]

is 53:8

Here is the proper translation of Is 53:8_

From imprisonment and from judgement he was taken, and (of ) his generation, who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people a plague befell (or came upon) THEM. (lamoh)

The word "lamoh" is poetic Hebrew and means "to them" or "for them" proving that in this verse the prophet is referring to a collection of people, not an individual. The term has been mistranslated in the KJB for obvious reasons.

The term "land of the living" especially in the context of Isa 53 refers to the land of Israel and the nation being exiled from the land. Please refer to this usage by Ezekiel while the Jewish people were exiled after the destruction of the First Temple. (Ezek chap 26:20 and 32:23ff)

 

[bhakthi]

Re: is 53

Your posts indicate that A) You have no knowledge of Hebrew and B) You are totally relying on the KJB to reach your faulty conclusions.

"Ish machovot" means a man of pains, not a man of sorrows. The fact that the servant is referred to in the singular with the poetic metaphor of a man in no way rules out the nation which is a collective entity. In fact Isaiah refers to the servant both in the singular and plural many times.

Dan 9 has nothing to do with THE MESSIAH. In fact it deals with 2 annointed ones and the timelines have nothing to do with Jesus.

Einstein,
I do not know Hebrew language but I have common sesnse.
Knowledge of Hebrew is not important when you consider this-"For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."Hosea ;6:6
And also="The ox knows its owner And the donkey its master's crib; But Israel does not know, My people do not consider." Isaiah;1:3
You don't have to know Hebrew to understand when you hear something if it is about a nation or individual.
Yes , Here Isaiah is speaking about a man of sorrows.If it were about a nation -Israel. the prophet wouldn't use the term ' a man.' Later in the same chapter it says
"He was cut off." Israel was never cut off as a nation.Israel was not cut off from the land of the living.
Some one died –was cut off from the land of the living.
He died for the sins of his people.The Righteous for the unrighteous.
Then who was cut off according to Daniel 9 ?
God revealed all his great and marvelous plans to Daniel including the rise and fall of future empires,Return of the exiles,Building of the temple.The restoration of Israel.The resurrection of the dead.etc etc.Do you think God will leave the Messianic matter when he made known to Daniel every thing else?Of course he was told about the Messiah Prince.Daniel declared when the Messiah would come and what will happen to him.
The Messiah came as Daniel was told and he got cut off according to what was written in Isaiah 53

 

[einstein]

isa 53

You are wrong! Knowledge of Hebrew (or a proper translation) is indispensable to really understand the Hebrew Bible. If you rely on the KJB or its derivatives your knowledge is filtered by a translation which, at many key passages distorts and perverts the original Hebrew to promote a Christological meaning which is not present in the original. Common sense is important, but will serve no purpose if passages you read in your bible are misleading.

BTW the Hebrew bible is filled with passage which describe Israel in humanly singular terms equivalent to a man. These are always understood as poetic metaphorical descriptions to describe the intimate covenantal relationship between Hashem and Israel.

EX 4:22- thus saith the L-rd, Israel is My son, My firstborn.

Hos 11:1_ When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

 

[bhakthi]

Re: isa 53

You are wrong! Knowledge of Hebrew (or a proper translation) is indispensable to really understand the Hebrew Bible. If you rely on the KJB or its derivatives your knowledge is filtered by a translation which, at many key passages distorts and perverts the original Hebrew to promote a Christological meaning which is not present in the original. Common sense is important, but will serve no purpose if passages you read in your bible are misleading.

BTW the Hebrew bible is filled with passage which describe Israel in humanly singular terms equivalent to a man. These are always understood as poetic metaphorical descriptions to describe the intimate covenantal lationship between Hashem and Israel.
EX 4:22- thus saith the L-rd, Israel is My son, My firstborn.
Hos 11:1_ When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.

You think the nations will say "By His stripes we are healed."
It is about Jesus Christ the nations of the world say this.Now Jesus was an
Israelite .True.

"Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."But,â€ÂWhoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder." Mathew;21:44

 

[einstein]

isa 53:5

First, let me state you keep using the GT to prove the veracity of the GT. That is nothing but circular reasoning. If you believe that the "Old Testament" is inspired text then you should prove the GT from the OT.

Your choice of Is 53:5 is a perfect example of what I have been stating in my previous posts.

Is 53:5(KJB)-But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him: and with his stripes we are healed.

Is 53:5 (from the Hebrew)-But he was pained BECAUSE OF our transgressions, crushed BECAUSE OF our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him: and with his WOUNDS, we WERE healed.

The terms "because of" and "for" are not interchangeable in the context of this verse and wrt to the Hebrew bible. The Jewish rendition states that the servant was hurt due to the sinful acts of the Gentile nations, whereas the Christian rendition attempts to convey a message that the servant vicariously took on the sins of the people. Human vicarious atonement is strictly forbidden in the Tanach where it is clearly stated that every individual is responsible for his or her own sins. (see Deut 24:16, Ezek18:4,20 as just two examples.)

Nirpa-lanu is the third person singular, masculine PAST tense conjugation of the root verb and should be translated (he/it) WAS healed in the past tense. The KJB translates this in the present tense to indicate an ongoing atonement, which again, is incorrect grammatically.

Finally, the term "havurah" which the KJB translates here as "stripes" is rendered from the Hebrew more accurately as a "wound". You might find it of some interest that the term "havurah" has six applications in the Hebrew bible, and in five out of six cases, the KJB translates the term correctly as a wound or bruise. Only at Is 53:5 does the KJB use a different term of "stripe" with obvious reference to the scourging of Jesus. Do you think this is just a coincidence? BTW I thought Christian doctrine teaches that Jesus death on the cross atones for original sin, not his being whipped.

 

[bhakthi]

Is 53:5 (from the Hebrew)-But he was pained BECAUSE OF our transgressions, crushed BECAUSE OF our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him: and with his WOUNDS, we WERE healed.

I it is in the past tense who were healed and when they were healed?

 

[bhakthi]

ISAIAH; 53:5 IS ABOUT JESUS

ISAIAH; 53:5 IS ABOUT JESUS
The Jews say ,Isaiah 53;5 was not written about Jesus. If it is not, who is it about?.And They say it is written in past tense. so Jesus has nothing to do it. “He was wounded for our transgressions ,He was bruised for our iniquities, And the chastisement for our peace was upon him. And by His stripes we are healed.â€ÂIsaiah;53:5.
If so, who ‘are’ healed? Or who ‘were ‘healed ? The Prophet and his family? Healed of what? When were they healed?.Why did they have to go in exile to Babylon and beyond few years after the prophet wrote this ,if they were healed by somebody’s stripes?
After, Isaiah wrote this, again Hosea writes “Come let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but he will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up .â€ÂHosea; 6:1.After these ‘two healings’ why the whole Israel had to go into exile for many centuries among other nations, which was not a sign of healing, but a sign of sin and rebellion as Moses warned them. .There are some who claim this passage [Isaiah 53:5] is about Israel.When we study the history of Israel. we can see they were punished for their own sins.When they went to exile to Babylon and beyond, it was for the crimes they committed against God.And later when they were scattered among the nations for many centuries,it happened according to what Moses wrote as a punishment for peoples sin and rebellion.None of these seem like an atonement made for other nations' healing as some Jews claim.
Surely, Isaiah and his contemporary Hosea were not talking about a healed nation.But a nation that needed healing. Isaiah begins his account, describing a sick nation. Isaiah;1:1-6. ‘a sinful nation, ‘sick from head to the foot of sole.’ Hosea talks about a People,’ torn by the Lord’, and calls for healing. The book of Hosea, is an account of Israel’s sins and backslidings since the beginning of that nation.
Again listen to what Jeremiah had to say ,after these two prophets, â€ÂYour afflicion is incurable,your wound is severe……You have no healing medicines.â€ÂJer;30:12,13. Then when did this healing in, Isaiah 53:5 take place?Looks like whoever the Jews claim to have healed them, didn't do a good job.They think it is [vs:5] is all about Israel. If so, you will have to say, “By Israel’s stripes Israel was healed .â€ÂThat does’nt make any sense.It is â€ÂBy His stripes we are healed.â€ÂHere some one died,cut off,â€ÂHe was cut off from the land of the living.For the transgression of 'My' people. He was stricken:[vs;8]He died for the transgression of the people of Israel. [Vs:8.] Daniel also speaks about this,
"After the sixty- two weeks Messiah shall be cut off,but not for himself".Daniel;9:26.
Another argument is that –A person cannot be sacrificed for sins .Then what is it written “when You make his soul an offering for sin.â€ÂIsa;53:10. Notice the tense changes here, “when you makeâ€ÂAnd verse eleven makes it clear that it is not about a nation but it is about a person ,’the Servant’, and it was for a future time.This scripture was accomplished when Jesus the lamb of God without spot or blemish took upon himself the sins of the world and made atonement for sins on the cross of Calvary.And the nations of the world testify,"By His stripes we are healed."And they worship Jesus the Lamb of God.
Did this healing Hosea speaks about [ch;14:4] ever take place in history? Not yet. Look at Jerusalem and into the land of Israel. The healing Hosea wrote about[ ch:14:4] is yet to come. And if Isaiah 53:5 is about Jesus Christ, that healing would only come through Him. Now it is about JESUS, people all over the world testify, that€ By His stripes we are healed.â€Â

"When I would have healed Israel, Then the iniquity of Ephraim was uncovered, And the wickedness of Samaria. For they have committed fraud; A thief comes in; A band of robbers takes spoil outside." Hosea l7:1

 

[einstein]

It would help if you really read my posts as these issues have all been addressed. The initial passages of Isa 53 are being spoken by the Gentile kings and nations mentioned in 52:15. It is a poetic projection of what they will be saying in the messianic age looking back as to what has transpired (ie from the past tense perspective). It is the Gentile nations, not Israel who is spoken of as being healed!

 

[einstein]

BTW, is you don't believe my interpretation you should at least be aware that there are many Christian sources that agree that the servant is Israel. Please see the NRSV Bible, The New Jerusalem Bible, and the The Oxford Study Bible all who identify the suffering servant as corporate Israel.

 

[bhakthi]

It would help if you really read my posts as these issues have all been addressed. The initial passages of Isa 53 are being spoken by the Gentile kings and nations mentioned in 52:15. It is a poetic projection of what they will be saying in the messianic age looking back as to what has transpired (ie from the past tense perspective). It is the Gentile nations, not Israel who is spoken of as being healed!

ok ok, Agreed.But never heard anyone saying they were healed by the stripes of Israel.But have heard many say all over the world that they were healed by the stripes of Jesus Christ [of course an Israelite]

“And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder." Mahew ;21:44

 

[YESHUA]

Nice post, Divine Names. According to the N.T. it is God who makes the unbelieving Jew blind and deaf to the truth. If that is so, how can the Jew be blamed, after all, Paul says it's God's will? :

BTW, there really is no use bringing out Isaiah 53 again and trying to convince us that Jesus is the servant. The fact that the servant is the righteous remnant of Israel is admitted to, even by many Christian bible scholars and by many Christian bibles.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was laid on him.
is this am Yisrael? are you serious or just blind and deaf?

 

[sisterchristian]

Jews dont believe in Jesus because they are Jews and not Christians.... :o

Jesus predicted the Jews would be blinded because of their unbelief in refusing to believe him and accept his ministry (matt.13:14-16). The final rejection of the jews happened in Acts 28. The Jewish leaders in Rome came to see Paul, but they had not heard about the incidents in Jerusalem, nor did they know why he was sent to Rome. Paul was able to present the Gospel to them and press home the claim of Jesus Christ "so when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God Persuading them concerning Jesus from both the law of Moses and the prophets, from morning till evening. And some were persuaded by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved" (Acts 28:23-24). Because this was the final rejection of the message of Christ by the Jewish nation, Paul quoted Isaiah, saying, "Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you will see, and not perceive; for the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them" (Acts 28:26-27).