Why People Stumble over Kingdom Now

[Drew]

The present kingship of Jesus over this present world is very strongly supported in the Scriptures. In fact, I think it is one of the most strongly supported doctrines in the Scriptures. And yet many Christians in our day, perhaps most, simply do not believe it. The reasons for this are no doubt complex. Some people have sinister motivations to deny His present kingship – to limit Jesus’ kingship to a vague “spiritual” domain justifies their agendas to continue to get rich and ignore the poor, buy into the world’s power structures, use violence to solve problems, and so on.

But many, and almost certainly most, who deny Jesus’ present kingship genuinely believe that they have the correct Biblical position on this. But since they clearly do not, we need to ask why this is – why do otherwise reasonable people come to deny something that is so clearly attested to in the scriptures, namely that Jesus is presently installed as King of this present world? In subsequent posts, I intend to provide some suggested reasons why this might be so.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

I have no idea what you are saying, so I am hoping you can clarify your comments.

What is it exactly you are trying to say?

 

[Vic C.]

Drew,

I believe you and I had this conversation before. It's because Kingdom now and Dominion theology are very close-knitted. Dominion theology brings some very unorthodox and heretical beliefs to the table that just shouldn't be tolerated.

But from what I've read from you so far, your belief about the kingdom closely matches that of Jeff's and neither one of you bring any of the other baggage to the table.

 

[Drew]

I have no idea what you are saying, so I am hoping you can clarify your comments.

What is it exactly you are trying to say?

First, I appreciate your interest. Second, please stick around - hopefully things will get clearer shortly.

 

[Drew]

Here are, in terse overview, some the reasons why I think people come to believe that Jesus is not presently Lord:

1. They have somehow come to believe that the existence of “problems” in this world means that Jesus cannot presently be in a “kingship” position. While this idea has a kind of “Sunday School” appeal, it is simply not supported Biblically. The fundamental problem is that people have this model of what the kingdom of God should be like that comes “out of thin air”, not the Bible. In fact, some New Testament texts prove that we should expect that such problems will be with us during Jesus’ reign. Examples: (1) 1 Corinthians 15 “He must reign until all enemies are defeated”; and (2) the parable of the wheat and the tares.

2. They do not understand that other features of the redemption narrative manifest a “now and not yet character” – a mysterious sense in which the “future” state of the world comes rushing back to the present and meets us. To the extent that this is indeed true, the assertion that the kingdom can indeed be here, but in an incompleted or unconsummated state that looks forward to a future full realization, is certainly rendered more plausible. It is understandable why people do not ‘get’ all this – it is not an easy concept to grasp but it is there. Examples: (1) When the Israelite spies return with grapes from the promised land, the people then eat, in the present, food from their own future in the promised land; (2) Paul sees that Jesus is the first-fruits (1 Corinthians 15) - the very concept of the first-fruit is one where we get something in “advance” in anticipation of something bigger that will happen in the future; (3) Paul sees the gift of the Holy Spirit as a down-payment. All these examples show that God is very much in the business of doing things in this mysterious sense where we get a “fore-taste” that points to a more full realization in the future. So why can this not be true of the Kingdom of God?

More later.....

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Here are, in terse overview, some the reasons why I think people come to believe that Jesus is not presently Lord:.....

Actually, the Bible tells us why people never come to Christ and never declare Jesus their Lord and why they will be lost.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

That's all there is to it. The lost will be lost, because they delighted in wickedness and hated the truth and refused to embrace the truth and refused to come to Christ for salvation.

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 2

No need to complicate it, because salvation is not meant to be complicated and that's why God asks us to become humble and trusting and simple as a child...and if a person doesn't, and instead gets bogged down with complexity and adding things to the gospel, the Scripture says they cannot be saved. Salvation is based on simply childlike faith.

Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[reba]

Drew you talk over my head all the time even when i agree with ya. I dont have your words but Jesus is The King of Kings. He has a kingdom and He reigns. As you quoted

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

 

[Free]

Drew you talk over my head all the time even when i agree with ya. I dont have your words but Jesus is The King of Kings. He has a kingdom and He reigns. As you quoted

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Haha, I just read that today but I would also include verse 24:

1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

One cannot deliver what they do not have.

 

[Drew]

Actually, the Bible tells us why people never come to Christ and never declare Jesus their Lord and why they will be lost.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

That's all there is to it. The lost will be lost, because they delighted in wickedness and hated the truth and refused to embrace the truth and refused to come to Christ for salvation.

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 2

That may be true, but that is not what I am talking about. I am addressing Christians who believe that Jesus is not presently lord of this present world.

No need to complicate it, because salvation is not meant to be complicated and that's why God asks us to become humble and trusting and simple as a child...and if a person doesn't, and instead gets bogged down with complexity and adding things to the gospel, the Scripture says they cannot be saved. Salvation is based on simply childlike faith.

Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

I do not think this critique is property directed here. I have never denied that what you need to know to become a member of God's family is complicated. But the Bible is very complicated and to fully understand it requires a lot of work, and a lot of careful thinking.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Why People Stumble - Amillennialism

The reasons for this are no doubt complex. Some people have sinister motivations to deny His present kingship – to limit Jesus’ kingship to a vague “spiritual†domain justifies their agendas to continue to get rich and ignore the poor, buy into the world’s power structures, use violence to solve problems, and so on.

Yeah, just look at the multi billion dollar Catholic church... lol.. so much for setting our affections on the things above and not on the things on earth.. this is why they do it, because they believe that this present evil world is the kingdom of God..

IMO it just doesn't get much more blind than that.

 

[Eventide]

It's all good..

So how is Christ ruling the nations now.. ? All the war, violence, hatred, sexual immorality, it's all good, right ?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

That may be true, but that is not what I am talking about. I am addressing Christians who believe that Jesus is not presently lord of this present world.


I do not think this critique is property directed here. I have never denied that what you need to know to become a member of God's family is complicated. But the Bible is very complicated and to fully understand it requires a lot of work, and a lot of careful thinking.

1. To be classified a Christian is someone who accepts and believes Jesus is their Lord. If anyone denies Jesus is the Lord, then they are not Christian, so your comments are not valid as they do not apply to sincere Christians.

2. The Bible is as complicated as you make it. If I walked into a room where a man lay on his deathbed and he has 5 minutes left to live. I can hold my Bible and open a few verses and share the Gospel and show him the Scripture and he can be saved and be promised eternal life in Paradise. It's not complicated at all.

The Bible says that the Pharisee's knew the Scriptures, but they failed to recognize the Author. A person can know the Bible well and still miss the point. And a person can pick up a Bible and be saved in 5 minutes.

Now may I ask you a question.. do you know anyone in the history of mankind who had perfect understanding and perfect interpretation of the entire Scripture?

If yes, then what are their name(s)?

If no, then did it matter to their salvation?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Re: It's all good..

So how is Christ ruling the nations now.. ? All the war, violence, hatred, sexual immorality, it's all good, right ?

Yes it is all good!

Does my comment shock you? Well let me explain why I said it's all good.

Everything had to happen and has to happen to declare God is good and His Law and Government is good.

I believe that God has given Satan, the god of this world 2 Cor 4:4, time to demonstrate his principles and government and everything that has happened and will happen is part of God's final will...even evil things is part of God's plan. For example, look what happened to Jesus. A horrific and evil act upon the Son of God. Yet it was the Father's plan that the Lamb of God had to be sacrificed!

It all started in heaven when "Morning Star", who later became known as Satan, began to question Gods government and claimed it was no good etc. And he wanted to be like the most High God.

Satan's arguments convinced many angels, and one-third joined him. If God had refused to create or had destroyed Satan immediately, some angelic beings who did not fully understand God's character may have begun to worship God through fear, saying, "he may have been correct. Be careful. If you differ with God, He may destroy you." So nothing would have been settled. Instead, the problem would have been heightened.

The only service acceptable to God is cheerful, voluntary service prompted by love. Obedience for any other reason is unacceptable.

I believe that Satan claimed he had a better plan for the government of the universe. God is giving him time to demonstrate his principles and his government. The Lord will abolish sin only after every person in the universe is convinced that Satan's government is unfair, hateful, ruthless, lying and destructive.

The Bible says. "We are made a spectacle [margin says "theater"] unto the world, and to angels, and to men." 1 Corinthians 4:9. The entire universe is watching as we each play a part in the controversy between Christ and Satan. As the controversy ends, every person will fully understand the principles of both kingdoms and will have chosen to follow either Christ or Satan.

Those who have chosen to ally with sin and Satan will be destroyed with him, and God's people will be taken to the eternal of their heavenly home. Read Revelations 21.

So YES.. it's all good, even the evil killing of Jesus, because if the innocent Lamb was never killed and pierced, we would all perish. And if all the war, violence, hatred, sexual immorality etc in the world did never happen, then God could never be vindicated and Satan could not have been exposed as a ruthless god.

2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[Eventide]

Re: It's all good..

Yes it is all good!

Does my comment shock you? Well let me explain why I said it's all good.

Everything had to happen and has to happen to declare God is good and His Law and Government is good.

I believe that God has given Satan, the god of this world 2 Cor 4:4, time to demonstrate his principles and government and everything that has happened and will happen is part of God's final will...even evil things is part of God's plan. For example, look what happened to Jesus. A horrific and evil act upon the Son of God. Yet it was the Father's plan that the Lamb of God had to be sacrificed!

It all started in heaven when "Morning Star", who later became known as Satan, began to question Gods government and claimed it was no good etc. And he wanted to be like the most High God.

Satan's arguments convinced many angels, and one-third joined him. If God had refused to create or had destroyed Satan immediately, some angelic beings who did not fully understand God's character may have begun to worship God through fear, saying, "he may have been correct. Be careful. If you differ with God, He may destroy you." So nothing would have been settled. Instead, the problem would have been heightened.

The only service acceptable to God is cheerful, voluntary service prompted by love. Obedience for any other reason is unacceptable.

I believe that Satan claimed he had a better plan for the government of the universe. God is giving him time to demonstrate his principles and his government. The Lord will abolish sin only after every person in the universe is convinced that Satan's government is unfair, hateful, ruthless, lying and destructive.

The Bible says. "We are made a spectacle [margin says "theater"] unto the world, and to angels, and to men." 1 Corinthians 4:9. The entire universe is watching as we each play a part in the controversy between Christ and Satan. As the controversy ends, every person will fully understand the principles of both kingdoms and will have chosen to follow either Christ or Satan.

Those who have chosen to ally with sin and Satan will be destroyed with him, and God's people will be taken to the eternal of their heavenly home. Read Revelations 21.

So YES.. it's all good, even the evil killing of Jesus, because if the innocent Lamb was never killed and pierced, we would all perish. And if all the war, violence, hatred, sexual immorality etc in the world did never happen, then God could never be vindicated and Satan could not have been exposed as a ruthless god.

2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

I can certainly appreciate your thoughts here and would agree to a certain extent.. as long as you're not going to ultimately say that God 'causes' these things to happen.. I would agree that He allows it to happen to show His love and grace although I would never agree that He is the cause of it happening.

 

[Drew]

Re: It's all good..

So how is Christ ruling the nations now.. ? All the war, violence, hatred, sexual immorality, it's all good, right ?

Please explain Biblically why you think that Christ cannot be ruling the nations just because there are all these problems.

I am convinced you will not succeed. You are making, I suggest, error number 1 from my list:

1. They have somehow come to believe that the existence of “problems†in this world means that Jesus cannot presently be in a “kingship†position. While this idea has a kind of “Sunday School†appeal, it is simply not supported Biblically. The fundamental problem is that people have this model of what the kingdom of God should be like that comes “out of thin airâ€, not the Bible. In fact, some New Testament texts prove that we should expect that such problems will be with us during Jesus’ reign. Examples: (1) 1 Corinthians 15 “He must reign until all enemies are defeatedâ€; and (2) the parable of the wheat and the tares.

 

[Drew]

1. To be classified a Christian is someone who accepts and believes Jesus is their Lord. If anyone denies Jesus is the Lord, then they are not Christian, so your comments are not valid as they do not apply to sincere Christians.

This does not challenge the validity of my comment. I will repeat: I am not talking about the criteria for being classified as a Christian. I am talking about the question of whether Jesus is presently a "king" over this present world.

From the rest of your post, and from your other posts, it appears that you seem to think its all about "personal salvation". Well, it is not. There is kingdom in force here right now, with Jesus on the throne.

 

[Eventide]

Re: It's all good..

Please explain Biblically why you think that Christ cannot be ruling the nations just because there are all these problems.

I am convinced you will not succeed. You are making, I suggest, error number 1 from my list:

There are MANY reasons.. which I have already shared numerous times.. but let's start again with this one.. Paul's letter to the Galatian church..

Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Question..

If Christ IS ruling the nations right now.. then why is the will of the Father that we be delivered from this present evil world..? This ties into the question I originally asked which you answered with another question..

I need to know HOW YOU BELIEVE that GOD IS ruling the nations right now, in light of the wars, violence, sexual immorality, etc etc etc.. iow, what does His ruling over the nations mean to you IF all these things are happening.. does His ruling the nations allow these things to happen as if they're His will that it be so.. ?

Please answer my question and I will be better able to answer yours.

 

[Drew]

Re: It's all good..

There are MANY reasons.. which I have already shared numerous times.. but let's start again with this one.. Paul's letter to the Galatian church..

Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Question..

If Christ IS ruling the nations right now.. then why is the will of the Father that we be delivered from this present evil world..? This ties into the question I originally asked which you answered with another question..

I have already dealt with this issue.The fact that this present world is evil does not mean that Jesus is not reigning. If you suggest otherwise with providing a Biblical argument, you beg the question by assuming that Jesus' kingdom will be perfect in all its "stages".

And in fact, we know it won't:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

This text alone makes the case - if He reigns until all the enemies are defeat this means that there will be a time during His reign where there will be enemies who are as yet undefeated. His reign is one in which enemies are progressively defeated - the last one being death.

There is really no "out" here - this text alone disproves the idea that Jesus cannot be reigning since there is evil in the world.

Not to mention the parable of the wheat and the tares. But I will get to that later.

So lets be clear - I have proven Biblically that there will be enemies at work during Jesus' reign. The text from 1 Corinthians cannot be read any other way. The only wiggle room you have to argue for a mistranslation of some sort.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: It's all good..

To all,

Eventide asked for some Scriptures on the Kingdom and its presence here and in the life to come. I attempted to answer this elsewhere, but my internet died before I could post. So I'll post this to no one in particular and perhaps it may clear up a few issues on the Kingdom of God (Heaven, in Matthew). I will use Mark primarily. So first I will show that the Kingdom is here, but hidden, to be fully realized in the world to come. Then, I'll explain what the Kingdom IS...

First, is the Kingdom here now, is it in heaven at the end of time, or are there two elements? It appears that from the words of both Jesus and Paul, the Kingdom is both here, hidden and realized by faith, and to be fully realized at the end of time.

First, just two examples from Paul, there are many more:

Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. Romans 14:16-18

This is clearly "now".

we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer. 2 Thess 1:4-5

This is pointing to the future

Just some examples, there are more.

I would like to focus more on the words of Jesus and His teachings, from which the Apostle developed the idea of "kingdom", primarily focusing on Mark's Gospel...

Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. Mark 14:25

This refers to Jesus and the Wedding Feast in the "Day of the Lord" at the end of time. Clearly, fulfillment of the Kingdom in the future.

Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. Mark 15:43

Also appears to be awaiting the fulfillment of the Kingdom to come...

But we also have some other comments on the Kingdom, for example:

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. Mark 1:15

Naturally, some form of the Kingdom is "at hand", it is here. Almost here. Since 2000 years have passed, it is likely that this saying does not refer to the end of time.

Mark gives us a number of parables in chapter 4 on the Kingdom. I'll come back to this in my next post on the descriptors, but as to WHEN it is, look to 4:30-32, the mustard seed. The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed. Ok, keep that in mind, and turn quickly to Matthew's version of this saying...

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

Note, it is the same saying as Mark's, but Matthew uses Kingdom of HEAVEN. They are naturally synonymous. What else does Matthew say about this "kingdom of heaven/God? A parable that only Matthew states:

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Matthew 13:24-30.

Of course, the parable of the mustard seed immediately follows. Thus, it is clear from this parable that the Kingdom is something HERE and NOW, also.

And my last example, Mark 10:23-30. I will refer to these verses again in my next post, since they are key in discovering WHAT the Kingdom is. But for this post, just the WHEN...

Mark speaks about the Kingdom of God and the rich man - for him, entering it would be like a camel passing through the eye of a needle. The Apostles are "amazed" on this teaching, and Peter asks "what about us, we have given all" for the sake of the Kingdom... Jesus responds:

And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, but he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. Mark 10:29-30

Here, to conclude my post, is Jesus mentioning that the reward for those in the Kingdom are realized BOTH here and in the world to come. Entering the Kingdom is something that can be done now - and there is a reward for it - and in the world to come - eternal life.

So the "when" of the Kingdom is both here in this world and more fully in the world to come.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Re: It's all good..

I have already dealt with this issue. The fact that this present world is evil does not mean that Jesus is not reigning. If you suggest otherwise with providing a Biblical argument, you beg the question by assuming that Jesus' kingdom will be perfect in all its "stages".

Then you must believe that all of the wars, violence, hatred, sexual immorality, etc etc amongst the nations now is completely within His will.. that this is what He desires as He reigns over the nations.. there's no way around it..

And in fact, we know it won't:

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

You're quoting from a future context.. you know that, right.. surely you do not believe that the resurrection of the dead as pertaining to 1 Cor 15 has already happened.. and I'll add Hebrews which tells us that we see NOT YET all things put under Him..

This text alone makes the case

Obviously in your mind.. certainly not in mine.. there's not a shred of doubt in my mind that the Lord Jesus Christ is NOT ruling over the nations right now... and what would the need to judge the world be if it's all according to His will in the first place..?

if He reigns until all the enemies are defeat this means that there will be a time during His reign where there will be enemies who are as yet undefeated. His reign is one in which enemies are progressively defeated - the last one being death.

There is really no "out" here - this text alone disproves the idea that Jesus cannot be reigning since there is evil in the world.

Not to mention the parable of the wheat and the tares. But I will get to that later.

So lets be clear - I have proven Biblically that there will be enemies at work during Jesus' reign. The text from 1 Corinthians cannot be read any other way. The only wiggle room you have to argue for a mistranslation of some sort.

LOL.. you're sharing your opinion just like me.. let's simply present the evidence and anyone else can decide for themselves..

KINGDOM means The King's Domain... and right now the earth is not His domain.. it's Satans', who is the god of this present evil world.. and that's why the Lord is calling people OUT OF IT.. the whole world lies under the SWAY of the WICKED ONE.. although that will all change when the LORD comes and destroys the man of sin... and THEN shall the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.. until then, they're still Satans to give to all who will bow down and worship Him.