Women are to be silent when the Church assembles!

[carlos123]

While I do not hold out much hope that Christians will come to agreement on what is written (given that such rarely if ever happens...a truly disgraceful state of affairs) I believe there is some profit in discussing this issue yet once more and engaging with those of you who might be willing to discuss it on this thread.

With that in mind here is are the relevant verses I would like to focus on...

From the New American Standard Bible (though all modern translations say essentially the same thing):

1 Corinthians 14:34-38

The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?

If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

The KJV starts out by saying "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak;".

The Amplified Bible says "The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak".

The New International Readers Version says "As in all the churches of God's people, women should remain silent in the meetings. They are not allowed to speak."

It was the practice throughout the New Testament churches that women were not permitted to speak out in the assembly of the Church. This wasn't just for Corinth but a practice that was present throughout the Churches.

That is what the Word says and says clearly.

There can be no ambiguity about this. To speak is to utter a statement publicly (the context of Paul's statements in the whole of Chapter 14 is talking about speaking publicly to the Church by way of prophecy, revelation, tongues, interpretation and other such gifts).

Just as those speaking in tongues must keep silent (i.e not speak) if there is no interpreter present so too women must not speak out in an assembly of the Church.

Just as prophets must stop prophesying and be silent and allow one who has been given a revelation to speak out so too women must be silent in an assembly of the Church and not speak out.

Silent means silent and to not speak means exactly that.

The conjecture that people embrace to negate what Paul said and said clearly absolutely amazes me.

Carlos

 

[woodlandapple]

While I do not hold out much hope that Christians will come to agreement on what is written (given that such rarely if ever happens...a truly disgraceful state of affairs) I believe there is some profit in discussing this issue yet once more and engaging with those of you who might be willing to discuss it on this thread.

With that in mind here is are the relevant verses I would like to focus on...

From the New American Standard Bible (though all modern translations say essentially the same thing):



The KJV starts out by saying "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak;".

The Amplified Bible says "The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak".

The New International Readers Version says "As in all the churches of God's people, women should remain silent in the meetings. They are not allowed to speak."

It was the practice throughout the New Testament churches that women were not permitted to speak out in the assembly of the Church. This wasn't just for Corinth but a practice that was present throughout the Churches.

That is what the Word says and says clearly.

There can be no ambiguity about this. To speak is to utter a statement publicly (the context of Paul's statements in the whole of Chapter 14 is talking about speaking publicly to the Church by way of prophecy, revelation, tongues, interpretation and other such gifts).

Just as those speaking in tongues must keep silent (i.e not speak) if there is no interpreter present so too women must not speak out in an assembly of the Church.

Just as prophets must stop prophesying and be silent and allow one who has been given a revelation to speak out so too women must be silent in an assembly of the Church and not speak out.

Silent means silent and to not speak means exactly that.

The conjecture that people embrace to negate what Paul said and said clearly absolutely amazes me.

Carlos

I hesitate to add to this conversation by.your last statement which suggests how you will treat any view other than yours.

I feel that there are several complications with a literal representation of this passage that you may not be aware of. In particular the issues relating to the genre of this passage, and the assumptions that go with that.

I'll address my points when I get home and can type on something better than my phone

 

[reba]

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

That is what the Word says and says clearly.

There can be no ambiguity about this.

So in the clearest sense of the Scripture any husband who is not dead is not following the Word.

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
You are here typing how can you think to type and be Giving thanks always?

Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
You own anything?

1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Know any deacons who are not married and have no children?

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[Jesusfreak97]

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


So in the clearest sense of the Scripture any husband who is not dead is not following the Word.

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
You are here typing how can you think to type and be Giving thanks always?

Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
You own anything?

1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Know any deacons who are not married and have no children?

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Well said reba!

 

[handy]

That is what the Word says and says clearly.

That is what in Chapter 14.

The ambiguity comes that earlier in the very same letter, Paul tells us that when women are praying and prophesying, they are to have their head covered, as a symbol of their submission to their husbands.

Some have tried to say that Paul meant when women are praying or prophesing outside of the congregation, but as you correctly point out, the letter is dealing with issues and matters of when the Corinthian church were meeting and worshiping. Also, the very gift of prophesy was for the church...

When one looks at the whole of Scriptures on the subject of women's roles within the body (which I have extensively, a number of times now) one finds that the best interpretation of how women are to fulfill their roles in the Body is that we are to exercise our God given gifts and talents under the authority of male leadership. We can pray and prophesy (and even lift our voice in song, read God's word and extend the peace of Christ to others)...but under the headship of men.

As usual, our Adversary tends to try to pull things to one incorrect extreme to the other...with the result that the Church has tended to make two opposite errors...suppressing the God given gifts and talents of women or...in the case of many churches now, ordaining women and letting them be the final authority (ie, women pastors and bishops).

Paul fully respected his many partners in ministry who were women. He even told the Romans to be sure to help Phoebe in whatever need she had as she was ministering in Rome. But, the Corinthians were getting out of line and many things they were doing were bringing dishonor to the ministry. Including women speaking out of turn. Paul was correcting this issue. The church in Rome wasn't facing the issues the Corinthians and the Ephesians were facing. And, it's in Paul's letter to the Romans that we see how much he respected and supported the work of the women within the Body there.

 

[carlos123]

The ambiguity comes that earlier in the very same letter, Paul tells us that when women are praying and prophesying, they are to have their head covered, as a symbol of their submission to their husbands.

Hmm...you bring up a good point Handy. Let me think and pray about that overnight to see if the Lord lays anything on my heart about that very point.

I mean that earlier Paul says that women should put on a head covering when praying and prophesying clearly implying that it's okay for women to do so when their heads are covered.

Thanks for bringing that up.

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


So in the clearest sense of the Scripture any husband who is not dead is not following the Word.

Reba..can you rephrase what you said about any husband who is not dead is not following the Word?

I am not sure what you are saying in that I don't see what being dead or not has to do with following the Word where it commands husbands to love their wives.

Carlos

 

[reba]

Part of that is a family joke...

The letter of the word says Husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself self for it.. well he went to the cross...


2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

We dont throw out a Godly handmaid of the Lord like Handy because we are stuck on the letter of the Word...

 

[carlos123]

Part of that is a family joke...

We dont throw out a Godly handmaid of the Lord like Handy[/COLOR][/COLOR] because we are stuck on the letter of the Word...

Hmm...well...I guess I won't comment on what you said Reba as I have to confess that I still don't get what you are saying. Not sure why I or anyone would want to throw Handy (I think she posted a response here so I guess she is a fellow forum member) out (whatever that means).

I shall therefore defer to you in this family joke - whatever the joke is .

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
You are here typing how can you think to type and be Giving thanks always?

I assume your point is that since I am here typing at this very minute that I cannot be giving thanks at the same time presumably.

Further up from that verse it talks of making the most of our time, being filled with the Spirit, singing and making melody in our hearts to the Lord, understanding what the Lord's will is, and always giving thanks for all things.

I suppose you could rightly say that I can no more give thanks in this very minute while I am typing this than I can sing and make melody, contemplate the Lord's will for me, and any number of other things. I can't tie my shoes, work at many jobs that require my utmost concentration and all manner of other things while doing most if not all these things.

But to think that these verses are saying that we should do all this all the time and nothing else in a legalistic sense is incorrect Reba.

The spirit of what Paul is saying is that we should have thankful hearts at all times. That we should have hearts that are filled with a song to God at all times. And so on.

None of which negates Paul's teaching that women should be silent in church assemblies.

If you believe that the spirit of Paul's teaching means something other than that women should literally be silent during a meeting of the church then please explain to me what you think it means for women to be silent? What is the spiritual meaning of his words?

I mean if they are not be taken literally.

And if they are not...then please explain to me the spiritual meaning of tongues speakers not speaking unless there is an interpreter present, prophets not speaking when someone sitting down receives a revelation, and everyone bringing something to church meetings in the sense of allowing the Spirit's gifts to operate within them.

What is the spiritual meaning of all these things (i.e. the context to women being silent) that negates the literal meaning?

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

I hesitate to add to this conversation by.your last statement which suggests how you will treat any view other than yours.

Forgive me if I did not leave open the door to fruitful discussion by how I phrased what I said.

I do believe that there is a great deal of conjecture all over the place in the Christian world that negates much of what Paul said in various places about head coverings, the silence of women in church assemblies, the free exercise of spiritual gifts within the body, and a number of other things.

What I see is many embracing a whole host of conjecture, speculation, and assumptions about what Paul said and meant (while ignoring what is written).

Nevertheless I remain open to any biblical plausible explanation of what Paul said to the Corinthians if you care to share your views on this.

I am not so foolish as to think I know everything so maybe I can learn something from what you have to share.

Carlos

 

[carlos123]

Handy (or Dora...not sure what you would like for me to call you),

You did not actually come out and say what you think the passage in question about women not speaking in an assembly of the Church is saying.

I would very much like to hear your take on what Paul meant to say in the verses I quoted in my original post.

Carlos

 

[reba]

Mar 6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;
Mar 6:8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
Mar 6:9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.


We can see who this was written about the twelve.... yet we also know we are to spread the Gospel... Does verse 9 mean one MUST wear sandals to spread the gospel? No because we see the spirit of what was written...

We can see Paul was writing to the folks at Corinth. Seems they had some mouthy women in the church that needed to be stilled.... Now take into account Handy's wonderful post. We are now back to this verse...

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

I assume your point is that since I am here typing at this very minute that I cannot be giving thanks at the same time presumably.

My point is 2Co 3:6

 

[carlos123]

We can see Paul was writing to the folks at Corinth.

Agreed.

Seems they had some mouthy women in the church that needed to be stilled....

Where does it say that Paul's statement was directed at mouthy women?

I mean I see your point Reba and I am in agreement with you that not all things are meant to be taken absolutely literal. That we must interpret things in the spirit that they were meant to arrive at some application for us today.

But at the same time there must be some measure of reasonableness to our interpretation if we are not to find ourselves off in left field somewhere inserting something into the text that is not there or even warranted.

So I ask...

Where does the text say or even imply that Paul's statements were directed at mouthy women?

As I read it...the text simply says women are not to speak. Nothing about mouthy women in there at all.

I mean I am open to what you are saying Reba if you can somehow show me any support for what you are saying in the text (literal or by the spirit of what is said) before us.

Now take into account Handy's wonderful post.

I've read through Handy's post a couple of times and she failed to explain at all what she thinks Paul is saying about women being silent (which I am waiting to hear from her on if she is willing to share on that with me).

So there is little for me to take into account in her post regarding the subject of women being silent in church assemblies other than...well..I suppose that women under male authority can speak out...I suppose, but I don't want to assume that and prefer to let her speak for herself.

Carlos

 

[Stormcrow]

These things Paul wrote have to be understood as cultural issues for the time and people to whom Paul wrote.

But I'm tired of dealing with this stuff. Believe whatever you want, just don't try to impose it on me or my family.

 

[carlos123]

The ambiguity comes that earlier in the very same letter, Paul tells us that when women are praying and prophesying, they are to have their head covered, as a symbol of their submission to their husbands.

Some have tried to say that Paul meant when women are praying or prophesing outside of the congregation, but as you correctly point out, the letter is dealing with issues and matters of when the Corinthian church were meeting and worshiping. Also, the very gift of prophesy was for the church...

I have been thinking about this some Handy and I would not so quickly discount the possibility that Paul's statements that lead us to infer that it is okay for women to pray and prophesy while wearing a head covering (1 Cor 11) and those where he says that women should be silent in an assembly of the church (1 Cor 14) were meant to be applied in two different contexts.

That 1 Cor 14 was meant to be applied in a gathering of the Church is clear I think.

1 Cor 14:26 - "When you assemble..."
1 Cor 14:35 - "If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church (i.e. an assembly of the church)."

The context of 1 Cor 11 is not as clear.

It is possible...I need to think and pray about this some more...that the context of the statements in 1 Cor 11 were meant to be applied in a get together that was not a formal gathering of the church as a whole.

That context matters is clear in that it is okay in the one context (at home) for women to ask about what has happened in the church gathering but not okay in the context of a church meeting.

Carlos

 

[woodlandapple]

The first thing we need to do is to look at the text.

1Cor14:34 is the main one I am looking at

the first thing I notice is that there is no negative used in this sentance. The Author does not say "dont" speak. nore does he use an adjective, decribing woman as being silent.
He uses the verb σιγάω which means I keep silence, I hold ones peace.

notice the word silence, which is different from silent.
the verb is in the 3rd person imperative present (which is quite rare)
and a wooden translation of this verb in context is
"all women in the assembly/church let them[women] keep silence/hold their peace!"
the reason why its translated as 'they should' is because this is an imperative, a command, which doesn't translate well in meaning with the English word 'let'.

The same reason as silence turns into silent, because a literal translation does not fit well in English.

In light of the greek, I find it hard to believe that the Author intends for women to say nothing at all. Rather it is a command to not squabble, interrupt, interject, take control of. To keep the silence, keep the peace.

Next we need to look at this verse in context with the rest of this book. What is the context?

As you suggest, the Author is mainly discussing spiritual gifts and the usage of them in the church. I would draw your attention to three points:
1. Women prayed and prophesied in Christian gatherings (see 11:5), this was common practice in all the apostolic churches and is encouraged in 14:39 providing it is done orderly.
2. the law requires the acknowledgement of the distinct roles of men and women,14:34 is probably referencing Gen2:20-24 or 3:16.
3. The wife is to seek explanations of points at home(of prophesy, tongues) and this could suggest that it is her husband who has given prophesy. (35).

These three would suggest that this verse implies that women in a public gathering are not to engage in a public weighing of prophesy which involves the interrogation of its content (or in other words debate, some might say argument).


Thirdly we need to look at the context of the book.

The Corinthian epistles are in the genre of "occasional Letters."
That is, the letter is addressed to specific people and occasioned by concrete issues. This letter form is not a literary device in which the Author shapes his views for general publication, it deals with specific people with specific problems.

What is the specific problem in the church of Corinth?

The church has a profound internal division and fundamental misapprehensions as to the nature of Christian leadership. The Author wishes to promote the teaching of the gospel without manipulative and self important eloquence (2:1-5)

After looking at these three areas, it is easy to understand that the church at Corinth was having problems with their brothers and sisters, as they where undermining the leadership in the church, creating divisions within the church and their own family. misinterpreting and arguing over interpretations of prophesy and tongues. And 14:34 is Paul's solution to the particular troubles being caused by the sisters.

(I heard a great sermon on this that explained that at the time women had no training in ministry, in the law nor leadership in the church. In Corinth it seemed that this lack of knowledge was creating issues as the women where creating problems as they where trying to assert themselves in these areas in the church. Which is why the Author exhorts them to shush up, listen and learn.)

Lastly we need to look at this in context of the entire bible, and Gods will.

I cant think of any other place where the bible commands women to be silent in church.

looking at what is recorded in the Gospels, it seems Jesus had a completely different view of women and their roles. In particular I would note who Jesus (and God) designated to be the first 'preacher' of the Good news of Christ's resurrection. Mary was chosen, and she was told to confront the heads of the church and to tell them. A hard thing to do if there is a doctrine of the silence of Women.

It seems to me that a literal look at this verse in 1Corinthians actually contradicts the roles that God has given to many women. and also contradicts Paul himself

Here are a list of some women in the NT that are in leadership roles, and are mentioned by Paul:

Pheobe (Romans 16:1-2)

Priscilla (Acts 18:26Acts 18:2, 18; Romans 16:3, and I Corinthians 16:19)


Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3)

Junia (Romans 16:7)

Though there were other women throughout the Bible in positions of leadership, such as prophetesses, evangelists, judges, leaders, etc., the above references should be enough to establish that women were indeed a vital and normal part of church leadership. Paul expected women to speak in the church, or else why would he have given the directive in 11:5? It would have been useless to give directions for women who were speaking in the church, if they were never allowed to do so.




Edit: as an afterthought, I wanted to mention the editors and translators of the KJV had a hard time dealing with unique Greek grammer, and there is often a misrepresentation in the KJV and in cosequence all other late translations of unique Greek phrases. It wouldnt surprise me if 'silent' as its form is quite rare is one of those.

 

[carlos123]

These things Paul wrote have to be understood as cultural issues for the time and people to whom Paul wrote.

I understand what you are saying Stormcrow but am left without any handle to grasp why you think silence as an expression of submission is a cultural matter and not something that is applicable today.

But I'm tired of dealing with this stuff. Believe whatever you want, just don't try to impose it on me or my family.

I understand your being tired of this stuff too Stormcrow and for sure I would not want to impose anything at all on you. But I do want to encourage obedience to God and a proper understanding of what is written for His greater honor and glory within the Body.

It is difficult if not tiresome to try and wade into these discussions with Christians since so many have so many different beliefs about all manner of things.

And many cling to what they believe not matter what.

I think it helps when we determine to stick to a discussion of what is written with a view to understanding what is written...as written.

What is indeed tiring is when we get into discussions that involve little more than a back and forth about personal opinion, conjecture, assumption, or otherwise.

There is altogether a lack of discipline in Christian discussion. I mean a lack of sticking to the topic at hand which is a discussion of what Paul said exactly. We veer off into all kinds of correlated but extraneous issues that do not really help us understand what Paul said.

I am hoping this discussion will be different and will endeavor to keep bringing us back as often as we stray to a discussion aimed at coming to agreement regarding what Paul actually said.

Carlos

 

[reba]

Carlos be sure to wear your sandals.

 

[carlos123]

Thanks for your input WoodlandApple (don't know what else to call you) and thanks for sticking to an explanation of what is written overall.

I don't want to respond without carefully thinking about what you said but I will get back to you (I am not just saying that).

Let me think about what you said and re-read it a few times first. May be a day or two before I respond.

Carlos