Zach 13

[ORwarriOR]

I tried to make a big thread that I had planned to post elsewhere, but I think the forum ate it because it was too big.

Instead I'll just cut right to the point:

Zachariah 13:
1 "On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity. 2 "On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more," declares the LORD Almighty. "I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, his father and mother, to whom he was born, will say to him, 'You must die, because you have told lies in the LORD's name.' When he prophesies, his own parents will stab him. 4 "On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision. He will not put on a prophet's garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 He will say, 'I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth. [a] ' 6 If someone asks him, 'What are these wounds on your body ?' he will answer, 'The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.'

If this holds true, and that fountain is the blood of Christ, why are the apostle's prophesies seen as truths? Why is the revelation seen as a truth when god said prophesies after the blood of christ would be lies? If that's the case why don't we all just take a long hard look at the first three books, rebuild our doctrine to unify our denominations and try to live like christ according to them and build the new Jerusalem here on earth...

 

[Sinthesis]

I tried to make a big thread that I had planned to post elsewhere, but I think the forum ate it because it was too big.

Instead I'll just cut right to the point:

Zachariah 13:
1 "On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity. 2 "On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more," declares the LORD Almighty. "I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, his father and mother, to whom he was born, will say to him, 'You must die, because you have told lies in the LORD's name.' When he prophesies, his own parents will stab him. 4 "On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision. He will not put on a prophet's garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 He will say, 'I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth. [a] ' 6 If someone asks him, 'What are these wounds on your body ?' he will answer, 'The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.'

If this holds true, and that fountain is the blood of Christ, why are the apostle's prophesies seen as truths? Why is the revelation seen as a truth when god said prophesies after the blood of christ would be lies? If that's the case why don't we all just take a long hard look at the first three books, rebuild our doctrine to unify our denominations and try to live like christ according to them and build the new Jerusalem here on earth...

It is true, but your supposition that the fountain is the blood of Christ is not correct.

 

[ORwarriOR]

How so? Can you at least explain it to me then? Because the chapter prior to that is talking about mourning of the one they pierced which would lead one to assume the crucifixion, and then 13 begins with "On that day".

 

[veteran]

The timing of Zechariah 12:10 is right after Armageddon, not right after Christ's crucifixion. In much of Zechariah 13 also, and definitely with most of Zechariah 14. After Christ's return there will be no need for prophecies, He will be manifest, all questions and wonderings about His Kingship and Lordship will be for nought when He reveals Himself to all. They way to understand prophetic timelines in Scripture is to study ALL The Bible as a whole. We must also believe on His promised Saviour Jesus Christ and ask God for that understanding too.

 

[ORwarriOR]

I believe fully in Christ being our savior, I guess that's the whole point of my argument. The thing that bothers me the most about that verse is that if it's true, it could possibly say that a lot of the new testament could contain lies. Iunno it's just the overall message of the new covenant is what's leading me to believe this.

"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israeli after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my laws in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor or a man his brother, saying 'Know the Lord' because they will all know me,from the least of them to the greatest."

Also it lines up with Micah 4 (NIV)
"In the last days the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and people will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into the pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. Every man will sit under his own vine and under his own fig, tree and no one will make them afraid, for the LORD ALMIGHTY has spoken. All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever."

Previous chapter speaks of their return from exile does it not? And the one directly following it speaks of the Ruler coming from Bethlehem.

If this is true, then every time we preach about the fires of hell, and the apocalypse, or saying "Accept Jesus Christ as your savior or perish!!!" we are breaking the new covenant. Because even if you interpret that as "you won't be able to make them afraid" it still doesn't change the fact that you're breaking the new covenant by trying to, and you're not accepting the word of the lord. Micah 4 states that his wisdom will shine regardless of beliefs, so why not just let our light shine while walking in the name of our Lord without trying to scare other people to our Lord?

My whole point over all of this is the books of John have exalted Christ to a level above God, and we go around telling everyone to know him. John also exalts himself as THE beloved disciple and Christ even said in prior books that those who exalted themselves would be humbled. It just seems to me that John's books are too far out of line with the other to not be questioned. Christ was humble in the first three books, why didn't those apostles exalt him? Because they knew that's not what he wanted. I've also been told that I need to believe it with 100% certainty because it was inspired by the holy spirit. But the holy spirit doesn't put us on auto-pilot; even the apostles could attest to that. By believing that that's true, we can safely say that John wasn't perfect, none of the apostles were perfect, only Christ. God was in total control over the Old Testament, and with Christ, he gave us new laws that he knew we could live by, laws that are written in our heart and ingrained into our moral being; he also gave us a shining example of how to act; Christ was the messiah, I have absolutely no doubt about that. But I think that the apostles could have possibly corrupted that image with their many words, and Johns own ego, which is present in the book of John by saying he was the beloved disciple.

I know it's possibly just a dream, or too high of a hope, but I think we should all just reform under the same banner, that banner being the new covenant. Because every time we break it, we're hurting the world around us. God gave us this world to serve him and enjoy it. He WANTED to give us a land "flowing of milk and honey" just like he wanted to give it to the Israelite. We can do his bidding and enjoy the world around us by finding our inner kingdoms like Christ said. We can make the world around us our heaven while still looking forward to the next one. But we can't do that as long as we keep breaking the new covenant, and we keep trying to scare people to our Lord. We're all divided. Why can't we just unite under the most important fundamental teaching that the Lord gave us. He gave us the new covenant for a reason, and he told us not to force our beliefs on others for a reason; he didn't tell us not to spread the wisdom of the lord and the wisdom of Christ. Is that not something we can agree on? Can we not agree that through unity we won't have any more conflict and any more human interpretations? Why not just let the wisdom of the lord shine instead of using a flamethrower of darkness. What do we have to lose if we all still have faith...

 

[Sinthesis]

How so? Can you at least explain it to me then? Because the chapter prior to that is talking about mourning of the one they pierced which would lead one to assume the crucifixion, and then 13 begins with "On that day".

"Fountain" can certainly seem like it should pertain to Christ's blood, but here it refers to a fountain or wellspring of knowledge/wisdom/understanding of what God wants from His people.

"The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel" describes the difficult prophetic plan God had for Israel as he refined them from His people in name only into His people in thought and deed. "On that day" is not a single day, but the entire first century era when God's People (the Land) were given a new understanding as to how to serve Him. Christians will naturally assume it is about the emergence of the Christian church, but it also concerns the reformation of Judaism from Temple to Rabbinic, so that even today's Jews admit the crucifixion of Jesus was sinful. Since that era there have been no true prophets.

 

[ORwarriOR]

How so? Can you at least explain it to me then? Because the chapter prior to that is talking about mourning of the one they pierced which would lead one to assume the crucifixion, and then 13 begins with "On that day".

"Fountain" can certainly seem like it should pertain to Christ's blood, but here it refers to a fountain or wellspring of knowledge/wisdom/understanding of what God wants from His people.

"The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel" describes the difficult prophetic plan God had for Israel as he refined them from His people in name only into His people in thought and deed. "On that day" is not a single day, but the entire first century era when God's People (the Land) were given a new understanding as to how to serve Him. Christians will naturally assume it is about the emergence of the Christian church, but it also concerns the reformation of Judaism from Temple to Rabbinic, so that even today's Jews admit the crucifixion of Jesus was sinful. Since that era there have been no true prophets.

Right that wisdom was the teachings of Christ and the solidity of the new covenant. The new covenant as I stated being.
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israeli after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my laws in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor or a man his brother, saying 'Know the Lord' because they will all know me,from the least of them to the greatest."

Again refer this to Micah 4 and it ALL MAKES SENSE. We are breaking the new covenant each and every time we preach to people and try to convert them. And that's why the world is decaying all around us. We blame moral decay on the fact that people won't accept the word of the Lord, but they don't need to accept the name, only the wisdom that he teaches, and we can do this by letting our light shine and living in his word. Christ told his disciples he would show them how to fish for men. We can do this without preaching and breaking the new covenant by being disciples of Christ. But that means that accepting the posibility that the new testament could have become corrupted since it implies that we need to break the new covenant. This is false, God would not mislead us into breaking his covenant; that was the work of men, and their man-made doctrines.

 

[Sinthesis]

Right that wisdom was the teachings of Christ and the solidity of the new covenant. The new covenant as I stated being.
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israeli after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my laws in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor or a man his brother, saying 'Know the Lord' because they will all know me,from the least of them to the greatest."

Again refer this to Micah 4 and it ALL MAKES SENSE. We are breaking the new covenant each and every time we preach to people and try to convert them. And that's why the world is decaying all around us. We blame moral decay on the fact that people won't accept the word of the Lord, but they don't need to accept the name, only the wisdom that he teaches, and we can do this by letting our light shine and living in his word. Christ told his disciples he would show them how to fish for men. We can do this without preaching and breaking the new covenant by being disciples of Christ. But that means that accepting the posibility that the new testament could have become corrupted since it implies that we need to break the new covenant. This is false, God would not mislead us into breaking his covenant; that was the work of men, and their man-made doctrines.

While there is personal peace in serving God as either a Christian or Jew, we are all still sinners and subject to lapses in judgement. Further, the interface of Believer and non-believer precludes a Kum-ba-ya type world until all Christ's enemies are placed beneath His feet. There are real consequences to rejecting God. As servants we should want to convey the truth to others. Un-believers are not under the New Covenant, and they will not be brought into the New Covenant unless we witness to them, and, if they believe, come to know God.

Read Micah 4 again.

• Mic 4:13 - Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.

 

[ORwarriOR]

you are also leaving out the verses right before that.
"11 But now many nations are gathered against you. They say "Let her be defiled let our eyes gloat over Zion!" 12 But they do not know the thoughts of the Lord' they do not understand his plan. he who gathers them like sheaves to the threshing floor." Yah, he definitely gathered Babylon to the threshing floor. He fulfilled these prophesies and then the coming of Christ ENDED that crusade.

That verse you quoted was speaking about the NOW at the time. Then directly following it, in micah 5 he is talking about the coming of Christ. You can't argue that, and at the very end of it, it says

Micah 5: 4-5

"4 He will stand and shepherd his flock and strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God And they will live securely for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth. 5And he will be their peace."

Christ would be their peace. Christ would fulfill the prophecy of micah 4 where no longer nation would stand against nation. Regardless of whether or not unbelievers aren't under the new covenant we are, and unbelievers are our neighbors everywhere. It's not just about not saying "know the lord" to your family, it's about your neighbors as well, as clearly indicated in Micah 4. God isn't stupid he wouldn't have said that if it didn't mean something. We aren't at war anymore. We have our savior. Please I beg you and every one of you, to stop breaking the covenant. We are believers and we are bound by it; by breaking it WE are causing the decay in the world and WE are killing it. We can fish for men for our lord without breaking the covenant.

Also take into consideration Isaiah 42:6 (NIV) This chapter is most definitely talking about Christ. And here:
"I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people, and a light for the Gentiles, 7 to open the eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness."

Gentiles is a mistranslation btw and it means nations. How can we let our light shine out to all the nations and open their eyes if we keep breaking the covenant and preaching with darkness instead of just letting our light shine like Christ did? We are responsible for keeping them in the darkness with our doomsday speeches.

 

[veteran]

I believe fully in Christ being our savior, I guess that's the whole point of my argument. The thing that bothers me the most about that verse is that if it's true, it could possibly say that a lot of the new testament could contain lies. Iunno it's just the overall message of the new covenant is what's leading me to believe this.

I don't know how you get such an idea. The "fountain" metaphor is connected with Christ's Salvation, and that's the timing Zech.13:1 is talking about. It in no way conflicts with the New Covenant. Instead, it SUPPORTS the idea of the New Covenant, even the waters of Life especially with Salvation manifested.

Also it lines up with Micah 4 (NIV)
"In the last days the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and people will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into the pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. Every man will sit under his own vine and under his own fig, tree and no one will make them afraid, for the LORD ALMIGHTY has spoken. All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever."

How you've shown the Micah 4 Scripture is not how it is divided. Those are 3 separate verses in the NIV:

Micah 4:3-5
3 He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.
4 Every man will sit under his own vine and under his own fig tree, and no one will make them afraid, for the LORD Almighty has spoken.
5 All the nations may walk in the name of their gods; we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
(NIV)

Verse 3 - after Christ's second coming
Verse 4 - after Christ's second coming
Verse 5 - prior to Christ's second coming to God's eternity.

WHY did you group those 3 Micah verses together in one paragraph like that? To make it misleading I have no doubt.

The rest of what you wrote is total confusion and unsound doctrine.

We are breaking the new covenant each and every time we preach to people and try to convert them.

What a blind statement that is, showing you doubt the power of The Gospel of Jesus Christ Which is The New Covenant. You're a deceiver, and I don't believe you are what you say you are.

 

[ORwarriOR]

What a blind statement that is, showing you doubt the power of The Gospel of Jesus Christ Which is The New Covenant. You're a deceiver, and I don't believe you are what you say you are.

If I am a deceiver why is John's gospel the only one that's so different from all three. If I am a deceiver why is that in the first three gospels Christ only went out to the lost sheep of israel, and almost REFUSED to talk to gentiles? He let THEM come to HIM, because he knew how to fish for men and he was trying to show his disciples how to do that. I'm not doubting the power of CHRIST ONE BIT. I am doubting the power of preaching about it. That's not fishing, if anything it's fishing with dynamite and we all know how well that works. If you don't believe that, then YOU doubt the power of fishing by living like Christ, and in turn YOU are doubting the power of Christ based on THREE accurate testimonies. Every time Christ healed Samaritans in the first three gospels either they came to him, or in the story of the ten leppers there was one Samaritan among the jews and HE CAME TO JESUS to thank him. These gospels are the only ones that line up with the new covenant! If I am a deceiver then I think matthew mark and luke must have been too; and Johns was the only that mattered RIGHT?

Which of the four books do Christians use most often when bringing new believers to the faith?

Christ was humble, he didn't even like admitting that he was the Christ and most people didn't even realize it right away, he let people come to the conclusion. He told his Disciples and others to keep it a secret! The gospel of John has has people become mind readers and falling down worshiping him. John left out almost ALL of Christ's parables, especially the ones about finding our inner kingdom. The author of the Gospel self-exalts himself as "the beloved disciple" when Christ shown no preferential treatment to any of his disciples in the first three. Not even peter, who was the one that spoke up against not betraying him. The gospel of John exalts satan as being the prince of this world, it exalts him to a level not found in the previous three books. Satan is MERELY an accuser and deceiver, a very evil one but he's still nothing I would ever call a prince. That's exalting him. I've been praying to the holy spirit to reveal me truths. I've been praying to have me think differently of this book if I should and all I'm getting is more and more negative feelings about it. This is the only one that elevated Christ to a level of divinity; when christ himself was always humbly assertive to the fact he was only the son of God. Christ said whoever exalts himself would be humbled.

I'm sorry but the first three books don't go against the new covenant. The book of John does! IT SPAWNED EVANGELISM. Christ wants us to fish for men. He doesn't want us to go out trying to convert people left and right in a crusade of darkness. The first three gospels make that clear. People say that I shouldn't speak against the Gospel of John because it was inspired by the holy spirit. But the holy spirit never contradicts itself. We have three very reliable testimonies of the nature of Christ, then one oddball that goes against it. Draw your own conclusions because I'll listen to my heart, and I'll listen to the holy spirit, and I'll keep myself from forsaking the new covenant. Good things never happened to the Israelites when they forsook their covenant.

The new covenant is as clear as black and White!
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israeli after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my laws in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor or a man his brother, saying 'Know the Lord' because they will all know me,from the least of them to the greatest."

There is no way you can deny that evangelism is going around saying "Know the lord" to your neighbor. NO WAY.

And as far as micah 4 goes. Micah 5 directly following states that he will be their peace after he rises up from Bethlehem. How can you see that as the second coming? Sounds to me like the first. Peace doesn't involve crusades.

So if you want to call me a deceiver so be it! But judge not unless ye yourself be judged. I am living by the new covenant. All I want is for all Christians to simply live like Christ and obey the new covenant. All I want is peace, and love for EVERYONE. All most christians are concerned about is everlasting paradise, and poopoo to those who have to burn in hell. I know for a fact that I couldn't enjoy eternal paradise if others were suffering for an eternity, I don't know how anyone who claims to love their neighbor as themselves could say the same. Unless you can pick and choose your neighbors, like you feel like you can pick and choose the neighbors that the new covenant applies to. I'm not judging John, I'm rebuking his sins against the new covenant. I think he was probably a great person with great intentions; but I also think he broke the covenant, and now we're all divided and suffering because of it.

Point in case:
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28 NIV) The greek word for destroy means KILL and EXTINGUISH. If non-believers don't have to be afraid of suffering eternal torment, why are we preaching to them and breaking the covenant? The good news spreads on it's own (that good news being eternal life). Bad news only causes problems. We have a choice of life or death. Not a choice of life or eternal torture. Believing that God would torture his creations endlessly goes against how God describes himself as loving justice and mercy. It's not very merciful to torture your creations forever now IS IT? It puts Satan in our house of God because that's something satan would want you to believe; because it encourages us to break the covenant!! And it fulfills pauls prediction that the second coming of Christ wouldn't happen until we can accept that and THROW HIM OUT OF OUR CHURCH.

 

[JudaicChristian]

I tried to make a big thread that I had planned to post elsewhere, but I think the forum ate it because it was too big.

Instead I'll just cut right to the point:

Zachariah 13:
1 "On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity. 2 "On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more," declares the LORD Almighty. "I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, his father and mother, to whom he was born, will say to him, 'You must die, because you have told lies in the LORD's name.' When he prophesies, his own parents will stab him. 4 "On that day every prophet will be ashamed of his prophetic vision. He will not put on a prophet's garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 He will say, 'I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth. [a] ' 6 If someone asks him, 'What are these wounds on your body ?' he will answer, 'The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.'

If this holds true, and that fountain is the blood of Christ, why are the apostle's prophesies seen as truths? Why is the revelation seen as a truth when god said prophesies after the blood of christ would be lies? If that's the case why don't we all just take a long hard look at the first three books, rebuild our doctrine to unify our denominations and try to live like christ according to them and build the new Jerusalem here on earth...

That scripture is speaking about after the Two Witnesses during the thousand year reign.