Abomination of Desolation in 70AD - Part 2

[Hope of glory]

Problem: Both Mark13 and Luke 21 mention nothing about the "end of the age"!
Please respond to my post 15 of this thread, I refute your argument that says "no question was asked about the temple".
I clearly showed that Jerusalem and the temples destruction were the ONLY thing asked about and bring discussed.

Luk 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
Luk 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Is not Luke 21 and Matt not the same account? Matt gives a more detailed description but it was all by the Holy Spirit and same account.

I already showed you, they were checking out the temple, the precious stones, and gifts. Jesus then said no stone will be left that is not thrown down.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
Luk 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

Now why would Jesus talk about some temple getting knocked over, after I gave you the scripture comparison that we are those gifts and precious stones laid on the chief corner stone?

Jesus never mentioned the Temple getting knocked over. He said each stone will be cast down. Jesus then goes into telling them what to expect, how they are thrown into prison, and in that generation many hearts grow cold.

Now many were left or we would not have the Word today, so All those stones getting thrown down to the last one has yet to happen. Every last stone must be removed from the chief corner stone.

Eph_2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

I find it hard to believe Jesus was not more focused on His Church than some old temple that would have fallen apart anyway.

Mike.

Brother mike

You said "Now why would Jesus talk about some temple getting knocked over, after I gave you the scripture comparison that we are those gifts and precious stones laid on the chief corner stone?

Jesus never mentioned the Temple getting knocked over. He said each stone will be cast down. Jesus then goes into telling them what to expect, how they are thrown into prison, and in that generation many hearts grow cold.

Now many were left or we would not have the Word today, so All those stones getting thrown down to the last one has yet to happen. Every last stone must be removed from the chief corner stone.

In particular, you said "Now many were left or we would not have the Word today, so All those stones getting thrown down to the last one has yet to happen. Every last stone must be removed from the chief corner stone.

The words "thrown down" is the Greek "katalyo" and means "to dissolve, to destroy, to demolish, to overthrow, nullify".

How and why will every believer be destroyed, demolished, and thrown down from Christ????
This is actually impossible!
1cor.6:17 "he that is joined to the Lord is ONE SPIRIT"
Eph.5:30 "we are members of his body, of his flesh and of his bones"

We are ONE in and with Christ, both "Head" and "body" are ONE new man.....Christ!
It is because you do not understand who you are that you say such things.

Furthermore:
Eph_2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21...the building fitly framed together growth unto an holy temple in the Lord 22...Ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit"

Contrary to your strange notion that all believers must be destroyed and cast down from their position in Christ, scripture teaches the "building" of these stones. We will be built to "perfection", even unto Him! (Eph.4:11-15)

Brother Mike, your theory makes no "spiritual sense" at all and is contrary to NT revelation.

Please seriously deal with the plain text of the discourses.

One last thing, you said: "I find it hard to believe Jesus was not more focused on His Church than some old temple that would have fallen apart anyway."

Answer: Jesus was more focused on his Church! That's why he spoke everything he did, to warn them of the Judgment and destruction of Jerusalem which would happen only 40 years later (in their generation). His warning TO THEM was his FOCUSSING ON them!

Blessings

Hope of glory

 

[Deborah13]

Dan 12 is "spiritual resurrection" when MANY of the JEWS (the election by grace) heard the gospel and "passed from death unto life".

Hey

You've lost me.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Brother Mike]

How and why will every believer be destroyed, demolished, and thrown down from Christ????
This is actually impossible!

I never said anyone gets thrown down and away from Jesus.

However, Lets say Jesus was talking about that Old building. Let's say my Peter comparison is off and not connected. An actual temple gets knocked over in 70ad just like Jesus said it would. I don't have a issue with that because it can also make sense. I am not unreasonable, but the other view must make sense, and Your point is good enough.

We still have some very big events after that, that are not recorded in History, and a whole bunch of stuff lining up right now as I mentioned a few already.

Why is it so important to put all this in 70ad?

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Dan 12 is "spiritual resurrection" when MANY of the JEWS (the election by grace) heard the gospel and "passed from death unto life". (John 5:24).......at the end of that age. I have already dealt with verse 11 of Dan.12 and shown that "rise" is a improper translation according to the original Hebrew word.

You haven't dealt with anything.

Resurrection from the dead. your body dies and is resurrected at the end of the age -

Daniel 12 is about the resurrection at the end of the age, as well as the Great tribulation which is linked to the Abomination of Desolation.


1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Sleep in the dust shall awake! Some to everlasting life...

That is the resurrection of the dead at the end of the age.


JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

Dan 12 is "spiritual resurrection" when MANY of the JEWS (the election by grace) heard the gospel and "passed from death unto life".

Hey

You've lost me.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Deborah13

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The words "everlasting life" in Dan.12:2 is equivalent to "eternal life" life in the Greek. Actually, in the Greek both "eternal" and "everlasting life" are the same words "aionios zoe".
Aionos comes from the Greek word "aion" which means "age".

Eternal or everlasting life not only speaks of life as a perpetual duration of time, but also as a "quality of life"......the life of the age (ie. the life of the kingdom in the Holy Ghost)

Thus in Dan.12 when the scripture says ..."some to everlasting life and sone to everlasting contempt" it is referring to the "quality of life" that some would attain to, and some wouldn't.

The "elect Jews" of the apostolic generation who would believe the gospel and endure, would rise to "everlasting life" (rise to experience the life of the kingdom age)
On the other hand, the "elect Jews" who although saved would "draw back unto petition" (return to unbelief due to tribulation), would "rise to everlasting contempt" (fail to experience the life of the kingdom age, bringing contempt and abhorrence upon themselves and their Lord Jesus)

Here is an example of the words "aionios zoe" (eternal or everlasting life).

Math.19:16 "....Good master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"
Read verses 17-22
Now look at verse 23 "...verily I say unto you, that a rich man shall hardly enter the kingdom of heaven.

Notice, the rich mans question was "how may I have eternal life"
Jesus equates "eternal life" with "entering the kingdom" v23

The rich man was not asking "what must I do to be saved"? He was asking what must I do to experience the life of the age.
Likewise, Jesus did not say "it's hard fir the rich to get saved or to get to heaven". He said that it's hard for those who trust in riches (who find their treasure outside of Him) to enter (enter into by experience) the kingdom of heaven.

In a nutshell, not all who "rise from the dead" (in Christ) inherit eternal life (the life of the kingdom age), or enter the kingdom of God (enter into righteousness, peace and joy experientially)
We overcome by faith through much tribulation, but those who draw back in their faith neither inherit eternal life nor enter into the kingdom of heaven while in this flesh body!

Hope this helps!
Blessings
Hope of glory

 

[Hope of glory]

How and why will every believer be destroyed, demolished, and thrown down from Christ????
This is actually impossible!

I never said anyone gets thrown down and away from Jesus.

However, Lets say Jesus was talking about that Old building. Let's say my Peter comparison is off and not connected. An actual temple gets knocked over in 70ad just like Jesus said it would. I don't have a issue with that because it can also make sense. I am not unreasonable, but the other view must make sense, and Your point is good enough.

We still have some very big events after that, that are not recorded in History, and a whole bunch of stuff lining up right now as I mentioned a few already.

Why is it so important to put all this in 70ad?

Mike.

Brother Mike

You asked: "Why is it so important to put all this in 70ad?"

Thank you for asking this "million dollar question"!

If the "end of the age" did not come, then the Kingdom of God has not come!
This is why it's such a damnable doctrine to put these things in our future.
It's this simple:
In the age prior to the cross, the kingdom had not yet come, Jesus was the "Kingdom come"....the kingdom personified
Since the cross, the kingdom has come, the Messianic age has come!
If the end of the age did not come than the kingdom age has not come
If the kingdom has not come, than we are yet in our sins

How can you being a "kingdom now believer" still be waiting on a "future kingdom" and the end of a fulfilled and abolished age?

 

[Deborah13]

Hope this helps!
Blessings
Hope of glory

It did, thank you very much for your detailed explanation.

Blessings

 

[JLB]

If the "end of the age" did not come, then the Kingdom of God has not come!

This statement is not scriptural.

Please give the chapter and verse.

In the age prior to the cross, the kingdom had not yet come, Jesus was the "Kingdom come"....the kingdom personified Since the cross, the kingdom has come, the Messianic age has come! If the end of the age did not come than the kingdom age has not come If the kingdom has not come, than we are yet in our sins How can you being a "kingdom now believer" still be waiting on a "future kingdom" and the end of a fulfilled and abolished age?

The kingdom of God has come long before 70 AD.

16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.Luke 16:16


This age which began with Adam will continue until the end of the age when Jesus returns.

In this age people marry and they die.

The age to come is known as the age of resurrection, whereby people neither marry nor do they die anymore.

There is no such thing as the Old Covenant age, or the Mosaic Age, or the New Covenant Age.

These are Man made terms to promote a man made Gospel.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

If the "end of the age" did not come, then the Kingdom of God has not come!

OK, every crazy doctrine has a root. It's no different with pre, post trib.......... Election doctrine folks don't want to take any spiritual responsibility for anything. God is Sovereign, and what ever happens, just happens. Not wanting to take the blame for anything is the root, otherwise you have to believe something, and God forbid we should have to trust God and use our faith to change an outcome. Like that was never mentioned in the bible one time.

So, all this Preetree stuff is connected to the fact that without 70ad, then the Kingdom of God is not possible. So, it's just more involved than wanting to believe someone got their temple knocked over.

We know Kingdom is not an actual Kingdom as we use it in the English Language though. It's a Female Noun, so it can't define a place, any more than a door defines a room.

How can you being a "kingdom now believer" still be waiting on a "future kingdom" and the end of a fulfilled and abolished age?

I can see the actual issue. One thing that impresses me though about you Hope in Glory is that you can read!!!! You would be amazed............... Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are spelled different, and so your ability to read has that going for you. You see the difference.

I see the issue, if Jesus sets up His Kingdom on Earth later, then there is no Kingdom now. In fact, the Kingdom of God just being here and available to us is tied to healing, casting out devils and preaching the gospel of the Kingdom brings faith to people to receive just awesome things from God. A whole lot better sermon than God is just so mysterious in all his ways and you just never know what God is going to do, you just never know.

I guess I have to ask myself, How could I convince you not to take this preetree stuff so out of the water, and still provide a Kingdom of God here now to operate in? How do I do that? We have an (Possible) Operation of now, and Jesus being physically on the earth in charge later. How do I work this out with you?

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Dan 12 is "spiritual resurrection" when MANY of the JEWS (the election by grace) heard the gospel and "passed from death unto life".

Hey

You've lost me.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Deborah13

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The words "everlasting life" in Dan.12:2 is equivalent to "eternal life" life in the Greek. Actually, in the Greek both "eternal" and "everlasting life" are the same words "aionios zoe".
Aionos comes from the Greek word "aion" which means "age".

Eternal or everlasting life not only speaks of life as a perpetual duration of time, but also as a "quality of life"......the life of the age (ie. the life of the kingdom in the Holy Ghost)

Thus in Dan.12 when the scripture says ..."some to everlasting life and sone to everlasting contempt" it is referring to the "quality of life" that some would attain to, and some wouldn't.

The "elect Jews" of the apostolic generation who would believe the gospel and endure, would rise to "everlasting life" (rise to experience the life of the kingdom age)
On the other hand, the "elect Jews" who although saved would "draw back unto petition" (return to unbelief due to tribulation), would "rise to everlasting contempt" (fail to experience the life of the kingdom age, bringing contempt and abhorrence upon themselves and their Lord Jesus)

Here is an example of the words "aionios zoe" (eternal or everlasting life).

Math.19:16 "....Good master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"
Read verses 17-22
Now look at verse 23 "...verily I say unto you, that a rich man shall hardly enter the kingdom of heaven.

Notice, the rich mans question was "how may I have eternal life"
Jesus equates "eternal life" with "entering the kingdom" v23

The rich man was not asking "what must I do to be saved"? He was asking what must I do to experience the life of the age.
Likewise, Jesus did not say "it's hard fir the rich to get saved or to get to heaven". He said that it's hard for those who trust in riches (who find their treasure outside of Him) to enter (enter into by experience) the kingdom of heaven.

In a nutshell, not all who "rise from the dead" (in Christ) inherit eternal life (the life of the kingdom age), or enter the kingdom of God (enter into righteousness, peace and joy experientially)
We overcome by faith through much tribulation, but those who draw back in their faith neither inherit eternal life nor enter into the kingdom of heaven while in this flesh body!

Hope this helps!
Blessings
Hope of glory

1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. 4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."


And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, -

The Great Tribulation at the end of the age. Note: The Great Tribulation has not happened yet.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. -

The resurrection and the judgement when Jesus returns at the end of the age.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34

Some to everlasting life.

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Some to everlasting contempt.
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46


Daniel 12 lays out the Great Tribulation, The Abomination of Desolation, The resurrection at the end of the age.


It is noteworthy to remember that Noah and Job and Abraham were not Jews.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

It is noteworthy to remember that Noah and Job and Abraham were not Jews.

Hi JLB,

Two questions, seriously, I don't know the answers. I was recently accused of being dishonest in my posts, so I'm not 'playing word games'.

Why do you think that it says, 'many' of those who sleep?

It is noteworthy to remember that Noah and Job and Abraham were not Jews. Why?

 

[JLB]

It is noteworthy to remember that Noah and Job and Abraham were not Jews.

Hi JLB,

Two questions, seriously, I don't know the answers. I was recently accused of being dishonest in my posts, so I'm not 'playing word games'.

Why do you think that it says, 'many' of those who sleep?

It is noteworthy to remember that Noah and Job and Abraham were not Jews. Why?

I try to avoid "translation discrepancies" which only discredits the word of God and tends to sow doubt in the unlearned and new Christians.

One possible rendering of this verse could be understood as follows -

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

We know that the scriptures originally did not have Chapter and verse's, nor the punctuation that we now see.

Did you see the rest of my post and the associated scriptures in Daniel and how they relate to what Jesus taught.



JLB



And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[reba]

. 4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

 

[Brother Mike]

Why do you think that it says, 'many' of those who sleep?

min / minnı̂y / minnêy yâshên ‛âphâr 'ădâmâh
It literally means, many who are a part but separated from dust of the earth being asleep. It denotes being part of the dust from the ground but also separated somewhere else. The Hebrew really did not have a word to describe it, but it's clarified in the NT. The spirit meets the body to wake, and be judged by the deeds in body.

Jesus said God will destroy both body and soul in Hell. So, it's appears that the unrighteous dead will be brought back to their body and judged. While not in their body............

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Once dead, they have nothing going on under the sun. There body is not part of the dust, ground, earth.

Check this out:

Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

Men are like beast that do wicked.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

So just like beast, all go back to dust and become dust again.......... Dead........ Sleep. HOWEVER!!!

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Those that acted like beast go down, those that did not go up. Not the body but their spirit. This comes back to the body to awake.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

. 4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Amen! That is what it says in Revelation.

But Daniel is not Revelation.

10 And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still." 12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. Revelation 22:10-12

He said quickly. So in your mind, do you believe Jesus has already returned in 70 AD?


JLB

 

[farouk]

It is noteworthy to remember that Noah and Job and Abraham were not Jews.

Hi JLB,

Two questions, seriously, I don't know the answers. I was recently accused of being dishonest in my posts, so I'm not 'playing word games'.

Why do you think that it says, 'many' of those who sleep?

It is noteworthy to remember that Noah and Job and Abraham were not Jews. Why?

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]: Well I certainly wouldn't say this about you.

Jews looks to Abraham and sometimes refer to themselves as sons of Abraham (i.e., from the standpoint of circumcision).

New Testament believers sometimes refer to themselves as children of Abraham by faith (i.e., from the perspective of justification by faith).

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Those that acted like beast go down, those that did not go up. Not the body but their spirit. This comes back to the body to awake.

Interesting.. I never thought about those Ecc. scriptures in that way. Clearly, I should have been, Thanks Mike. ANOTHER, thing to rethink! Add it to a very long list....
Have a blessed day

 

[Deborah13]

It is noteworthy to remember that Noah and Job and Abraham were not Jews.

Hi JLB,

Two questions, seriously, I don't know the answers. I was recently accused of being dishonest in my posts, so I'm not 'playing word games'.

Why do you think that it says, 'many' of those who sleep?

It is noteworthy to remember that Noah and Job and Abraham were not Jews. Why?

@Deborah13 : Well I certainly wouldn't say this about you.

Jews looks to Abraham and sometimes refer to themselves as sons of Abraham (i.e., from the standpoint of circumcision).

New Testament believers sometimes refer to themselves as children of Abraham by faith (i.e., from the perspective of justification by faith).

Blessings.

Thanks farouk.

You made a very good point in circumcision and faith. Circumcision was an outward sign of their faith, it set them apart, outwardly from the pagan "goy" gentiles. But the circumcision of the heart is what God was looking for then and now, that sets one apart.

 

[reba]

The Word of God is just so very cool.... What other book could we read and get something new out over and over for years and years..... He speaks to each of us personally and as a family !
I doubt any of us will ever look into the mirror and say Ok I got it all! Reading many of the different views posted around these boards reminds me of this often.

Some of 'get' this and some get that.... 40+ years ago when I was kid raising kids... I would ask our son "you want peanut butter and jelly or jelly and peanut butter?" I would give him the sandwich and he would turn it over and teasingly tell me I did it wrong... He got it .... My baby girl could never decide which one she wanted... Just as those kids were in different places in their lives we are with our walk with the LORD. Thanks to you all for being here.....


totopic

 

[Hope of glory]

Hope this helps!
Blessings
Hope of glory

It did, thank you very much for your detailed explanation.

Blessings

You are most welcome Deborah13!