Any Grace Believers Here i.e. OSAS?

[AVBunyan]

Just wondering - don't know everyone here but are there any folks here that believe once God saves a man he is eternally secure in Christ forever no matte what happens or what the saint does. I think there are a few at least.

I do not want to debate OSAS - I just would like to know who you are if you willing to show your colors.

God bless 8-)

 

[cyberjosh]

Re: Any Grace Believers Here?

Grace is the Christian's life-blood, as channeled through the Holy Spirit (being filled with the Spirit), by which we experience fresh salvation each day from the Lord. Also God's grace is empowering, and enables us to walk the Christian walk in sanctification. I believe there are daily unasked-for graces given to us and I also believe there are some forms of grace which we must ask for if we are to recieve them, which is why prayer is important. But we thank God for His grace, and our job is to make sure we run the good race, being empowered by God's grace, and that we do not recieve that freely bestowed grace in vain. Hallelujah for grace!

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

Awww, looks like they took off and left you to hold down the fort, Av. Well, you know the old expression, “if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.†Those OSAS doctrines melt away in the face of the truth. If I didn’t want to lose my precious OSAS theology, I’d run for cover too.

 

[AVBunyan]

Awww, looks like they took off and left you to hold down the fort, Av. Well, you know the old expression, “if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.†Those OSAS doctrines melt away in the face of the truth. If I didn’t want to lose my precious OSAS theology, I’d run for cover too.

Doesn’t bother me much - just means one of several things:

1. These folks haven’t seen the thread
2. These folks are busy
3. They lack backbone
4. That true Christianity is in full blown apostasy
5. Just not many who believe it any more – majority is usually not right any way
6. They don’t know the scriptures enough to defend it
7. Or…they are just smarter than me and have learned that dealing with your crowd is just a big waste of God’s time - this is most likely the reason - I'm stupid and they've got more sense than me :-D

 

[Bubba]

Yes, I believe that what the Lord begins in His children He brings to completion. In John 10:29,"...no one shall snatch them out of the Fathers hand", "no one" includes Satan, others, and ourselves.
Bubba

 

[unred typo]

Bubba, think about that statement. If I were on the ledge of a burning building, I couldn’t snatch myself off of it. I could jump. I could crawl out. I could roll out. I could climb out. But I couldn’t snatch myself out. Doesn’t mean I have to stay there, does it?

Btw,it doesn't mean God can't flick us out either. He's not going to hold something nasty in his hand.

 

[AVBunyan]

Bubba, think about that statement. If I were on the ledge of a burning building, I couldn’t snatch myself off of it. I could jump. I could crawl out. I could roll out. I could climb out. But I couldn’t snatch myself out. Doesn’t mean I have to stay there, does it?

Please unred - I made it clear that I really didn't want this thread to be a debate over the issue - Start your own thread - We have heard all your arguments before - I'm trying to be nice here but the older I get the more cranky I get.

Re-read the OP.
"I do not want to debate OSAS - I just would like to know who you are if you willing to show your colors."

Thanks

 

[unred typo]

Sorry, Av. You did say that. Take my name off the list… I’m NOT in the OSAS club. Your fellow members seem to have deserted you though, except for Bubba. I think they have retreated to another forum where there seems to be a lot of mutual wound licking and back patting going on. I could go stir it up there but I like it here. I’d be booted in the time it takes to say “Calvinism rots and causes brain decay.â€Â

I could stay and help you count though. Stand firm, Av. It doesn't matter if you're the only one who believes it if it's true. Or if it makes you feel good. Or whatever. Good luck with that. :roll:

 

[cyberjosh]

Doesn’t bother me much - just means one of several things:

1. These folks haven’t seen the thread
2. These folks are busy
3. They lack backbone
4. That true Christianity is in full blown apostasy
5. Just not many who believe it any more – majority is usually not right any way
6. They don’t know the scriptures enough to defend it
7. Or…they are just smarter than me and have learned that dealing with your crowd is just a big waste of God’s time - this is most likely the reason - I'm stupid and they've got more sense than me

You don't think I lack backdone do you AV? Although I'd say we believe more in common than you'd think.

Nonetheless I don't shrink from arguements often, but atleast I posted my thoughts right?

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

Awww, looks like they took off and left you to hold down the fort, Av. Well, you know the old expression, “if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.†Those OSAS doctrines melt away in the face of the truth. If I didn’t want to lose my precious OSAS theology, I’d run for cover too.

Doesn’t bother me much - just means one of several things:

1. These folks haven’t seen the thread
2. These folks are busy
3. They lack backbone
4. That true Christianity is in full blown apostasy
5. Just not many who believe it any more – majority is usually not right any way
6. They don’t know the scriptures enough to defend it
7. Or…they are just smarter than me and have learned that dealing with your crowd is just a big waste of God’s time - this is most likely the reason - I'm stupid and they've got more sense than me :-D

Or they have gotten a glimpse of the light and are off to find another rock to hide under.

 

[AVBunyan]

You don't think I lack backdone do you AV? Although I'd say we believe more in common than you'd think.Nonetheless I don't shrink from arguements often, but atleast I posted my thoughts right? ~Josh

Hi Josh - I didn't have anybody in mind, really I didn't - I was just listing the possible reasons why oeople may not have responded - no big deal. I've always enjoyed your thoughts and know you are not afraid to post them.

Actually the real reason could be the last one when you sit back and analize it
7. Or…they are just smarter than me and have learned that dealing with your crowd is just a big waste of God’s time - this is most likely the reason - I'm stupid and they've got more sense than me :-D

Just look at the type of response this thread got from just one "loose it".

God bless

 

[cyberjosh]

Just look at the type of response this thread got from just one "loose it".

Well I'm about to "loose it" if some people round here don't start looking at the meat of the word more and practical application of theology (not talking to you). ;) Seriously, after a while you have to admit that debating strictly "doctrine" becomes highly impractical and can create breaches that may not be practically realized. Thus I think which ever side of the OSAS fence you fall on if both sides acknowledge perseverance and a love and passion for Jesus to keep his commandments, then we will be running parallel. I've said that many times, I'm about practical living, not philosophizing.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[AVBunyan]

Well I'm about to "loose it" if some people round here don't start looking at the meat of the word more and practical application of theology (not talking to you). ;) Seriously, after a while you have to admit that debating strictly "doctrine" becomes highly impractical and can create breaches that may not be practically realized.

Hi josh - I see what you are saying - I emphasize doctrine here first for 2 reasons:
1. Doctrine determines duty - If the doctrine is wrong the dutry becomes a chore - An old preacher once said, "If the doctrine is dirty the life is dirty." I believe this -

2. Many here can't even get the first thing right inthe Christian life and that is justification so if that is off then all that follows is a life built on "thou shalt do" instead of "be what you are". Eph. 4:1 - The book of Ephesians is a hidden book.

All I hear is "my repentance, my doing right, my obedience, my this and that..."

I'd love to talk more aboutr the Christian life but these folks keep talking about thier obedience it just gags me. The old saints never talked about what they did unless it was bad - they khew they were a wreck - they spent their time looking to Christ for all.

Speaking of doctrine - You got folks here:
Asking God for forgiveness, speaking in tongues, losing their salvation. heading through the tribulation, getting baptized, mixing the body of Christ with Israel, haniging on to Jewish covenants, and so much other stuff it makes it nearly impossible to discuss the simple Christian life because you have to spit out so many bones to get to the meal. :crazyeyes: :crazyeyes:

Lester Roloff said, "America is an insane asylum run by the inmates!" Just change America with Christianity

Pau lplaced the emphasis on doctrine in I TIm, II Tim. and TItus:
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

We are there!!!

God bless

 

[francisdesales]

All I hear is "my repentance, my doing right, my obedience, my this and that..."

Put your money where your mouth is.

IF Jesus is your Lord and Savior, start heeding His words...

1AND entering in, he walked through Jericho. 2And behold, there was a man named Zacheus, who was the chief of the publicans, and he was rich. 3And he sought to see Jesus who he was, and he could not for the crowd, because he was low of stature. 4And running before, he climbed up into a sycamore tree, that he might see him; for he was to pass that way. 5And when Jesus was come to the place, looking up, he saw him, and said to him: Zacheus, make haste and come down; for this day I must abide in thy house. 6And he made haste and came down; and received him with joy. 7And when all saw it, they murmured, saying, that he was gone to be a guest with a man that was a sinner. 8But Zacheus standing, said to the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have wronged any man of any thing, I restore him fourfold. 9Jesus said to him: This day is salvation come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham. Luke 19:1-9

Why does Jesus say that Zacheus was saved? Because he repented and turned to God. He put his faith into action by offering to restore those whom he had wronged - a sign of repentance.

How are we forgiven? According to our Lord, he says that we should ask God to :

Forgive us our trespasses AS we forgive those who trespass against us.

We obtain forgiveness of sins, which IS SALVATION, (according to Christ's own words) by forgiving our neighbors sin against us, not by apprehending the alien righteousness of Christ. Jesus never mentions that. He teaches that the central issue is whether we have combined our faith in God with works of love. He teaches about forgiveness and repentance. Jesus teaches the most clear and succinct way to eternal life. Yet, you prefer to dwell in the Scriptures of Paul that even the BIBLE ITSELF says can lead to destruction... :roll:

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

I suppose your false gospel is pleasing to your itchy ears, because now, you don't have to obey God, since God is already bound by your law to save you, no matter what you do in the future... What a wonderful fantasy...

Jesus is the King of your life, but you don't have to obey Him. :crazyeyes: :crazyeyes:

Jesus has a lot to say about salvation. Too bad it doesn't agree with anything you have put forward yet. His most famous teaching, the Sermon on the Mount, is totally ignored by the likes of your kind. And then you have the gall to continue with this garbage?

 

[Drew]

[Speaking of doctrine - You got folks here:
Asking God for forgiveness, speaking in tongues, losing their salvation. heading through the tribulation, getting baptized, mixing the body of Christ with Israel, haniging on to Jewish covenants, and so much other stuff it makes it nearly impossible to discuss the simple Christian life because you have to spit out so many bones to get to the meal. :crazyeyes: :crazyeyes:

I think that a sound argument has been put forward supporting the assertion that there really is only covenant - one that had as its goal the solving of the sin problem and which has been worked out by Jesus as the proper bearer of Israel's destiny. Perhaps you can support your assertion above with a pointed critique of precisely what is wrong with that argument which, while contained in my post, I must properly credit to NT Wright (or at least my take on his position on the matter of "covenants"). If we are improperly "hanging on to Jewish covenants", you will presumably be able to show this to be the case.

I think we all understand that you are in a minority on the OSAS issue (among interested posters) and are trying to respond to multiple people. But please do explain precisely what is wrong with what I think is an exceedingly compelling argument that God really only ever had a single covenant which has been worked out in Jesus, acting as the representative of Israel, thereby realizing the promise of the covenant with Abram that through Israel all nations will be blessed. Jesus becomes the faithful Israelite and fulfills the original covenant after all.

And this is relevant to the OSAS issue inasmuch as one can legitimately claim that any "conditionality" associated with receiving the rewards of the original covenant devolve into the "new" covenant, precisely because its all the same single covenant.

 

[stranger]

Just wondering - don't know everyone here but are there any folks here that believe once God saves a man he is eternally secure in Christ forever no matte what happens or what the saint does. I think there are a few at least.

I do not want to debate OSAS - I just would like to know who you are if you willing to show your colors.

God bless 8-)

Hi AV,

With qualifications it could be argued from scripture that 'predestination and election' settles the matter. Both doctrines are in the scriptures and unlike some doctrines the actual words 'predestination and election' can be found with a word search. That said the passages that these occur in are not isolated from the rest of God's revelation.

For instance we know that many are called but few are chosen. While I can argue that I am among the chosen few, and I have known the certainity of salvation 100%, it is possible to lose that certainity experientially. If you claim that you know from the scriptures that you are saved pointing to proof texts the problem is that there are other texts that can be used to argue against OSAS. That is fact. It seems to me then that 'weighting' of scripture comes into play. If we examine King Saul - for instance we know that at one point in time things were OK for him. The impression is that it did not last long so from that point of view he is not a good example. It is possible that things go well for an extended period of time and then fall apart. In Such cases, theoretically and probably practically, men like you and I shoould not presume that the 'sin of presumption' is not even now working its hidden mischief deep in our bones!

When we compare with 'fully knowing' with 'knowing now' there can be a difference. It is possible to fully know now, but it is also possible to lose that knowledge. That is not to say one has lost salvation but merely the assurance of salvation.

As a tribute text to this thread I suggest Psalm 88, a saint who makes the claim to have held up his end of the bargain from the time he was a youth - yet the Lord has not heard his prayers in the sense of answering them. You may argue that his was trying to be saved by his own works - that is not the case - he knew that if God did not act he was finished - that is grace deferred.
The final line in the Psalm is interesting 'My acquaintances are in darkness?' Nor do we know what happened to this man - was there a turnaround in his life experientially. After all it is an excellent thing to talk about salavation (Christ) but infinitely better to experience Him (Brooks).

 

[AVBunyan]

Hey gang - I'm not going to argue the issue OSAO on this thread - the purpose of this thread is to see who is OSAS not debate it - I've heard all your arguments and you have heard mine - forget it. I'll discuss justification but not OSAS - until I see you folks get justification right I am not going further with you on this issue of OSAS - you are getting the cart before the horse.

It appears you folks have little understanding of the "uniqueness" of the body of Christ and how if differs from Israel so you go to the OT tell give examples of losing salvation and even salvation itself and they won't fit in with Paul's doctrine - you just can't seem to get those things separated so you remain confused.

I suppose your false gospel is pleasing to your itchy ears,

BTW Francis you said this: "I suppose your false gospel" - The gospel I teach is the same one Paul preached - I Cor. 15:1-5 - are you saying this is a false gospel? When I tell someone how to be saved my message is an exposition of I Cor. 15:1-5 - Now show me where this is false.

 

[francisdesales]

Hey gang - I'm not going to argue the issue OSAO on this thread - the purpose of this thread is to see who is OSAS not debate it - I've heard all your arguments and you have heard mine - forget it. I'll discuss justification but not OSAS - until I see you folks get justification right...

How are you going to know what justification is if you don't know what a work is??? We are just in God's eyes when we repent and He FORGIVES OUR SINS! When we turn to Him and believe His Word, even if the circumstances make it difficult to believe, such as Abraham having a child at an advanced age. That is what makes us just in His eyes - that He has demolished our sins, when we beg Him for His mercy and forgiveness, and we believe His Word and He will fulfill it.

It appears you folks have little understanding of the "uniqueness" of the body of Christ and how if differs from Israel so you go to the OT tell give examples of losing salvation and even salvation itself and they won't fit in with Paul's doctrine - you just can't seem to get those things separated so you remain confused.

It appears that we have another "Neo-Marcionite" here. You want to divide up the Word of God, when Christ CLEARLY says He came to fulfill the Law. Not ABOLISH IT. Have you not read that? The New Testament and the New Covenant are better than the old, but the Old points to the New. They are not separate. The letter to the Hebrews says that the gospel of faith was available even before Christ. He then goes on to show those many OT fathers who responded to God in faith. That is how we please God - to have faith in Him and to earnestly seek Him. YOU are confused by making an artificial separation between the Jews and the Gentiles. Paul says we are NO LONGER two men, since that dividing wall has been breached by Christ. You can't seem to figure that we are grafted into the same tree!

"I suppose your false gospel" - The gospel I teach is the same one Paul preached - I Cor. 15:1-5 - are you saying this is a false gospel? When I tell someone how to be saved my message is an exposition of I Cor. 15:1-5 - Now show me where this is false.

The Gospel that you preach is false, not because of 1 Cor 15:1-5, but because of your ideas on OSAS, and now, this nonsense on building a wall between Jews and Gentiles, something that Christ came to REMOVE. OSAS is the devil's work, who CONTINUES to prowl, looking for another OSAS person to let down their guard. I can here Satan say to the OSAS people, "Don't worry, you can go back to your vomit, you are still saved... Adultery? Murder? Go ahead, sin all you want, disobey God, you can't lose your inheritance"

My advice? Fear Him and do what is right...

Then Peter opened [his] mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons; but in every nation he that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him. Acts 10:35

I know it isn't Paul, but it is STILL the Word of God. Expand your horizons and read the rest of it.

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

The Gospel that you preach is false, not because of 1 Cor 15:1-5, but because of your ideas on OSAS,

When I witness (Francis, this means telling people how to be saved - do you witness?) my message is:

1. I bring up Rom. 3:23 and other simliar to show them their lost and hopeless condition before God.

2.Then I show them from scripture how they can not earn salvation by their own efforts.

3. I show them from scripture how that Christ paid the penalty for their sin and sins that they could not pay themselves. I then make sure they have an understanding of I Cor. 15:1-5 as Paul says and ask them if they would take Christ as their saviour.

4. Finally, I leave the results to the working of the Holy Spirit.

Now, that was a brief description of what I present - the word OSAS or eternal security never come sup - All I do is expound the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5 and Romans 3-5.

Now - I challenge anyone here to show me where any of what I present to the lost is false or unscriptural.

I point them to Christ and what he did in their place at Calvary.

Again - show me my false gospel in the above. You can't unless you add to it or misrepresent what I've written.

The difference between my plan and yours Francis is you (Rome) show them what they should do (while sprinkling in a few words like grace and mercy to disguise your works salvation message) and I show them what Christ already did.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

Now, that was a brief description of what I present - the word OSAS or eternal security never come sup - All I do is expound the gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5 and Romans 3-5.

Like I said in my last post to you, I don't have a problem with presenting 1 Cor 15, although I disagree on your emphasis and misinterpretation of Romans 3.

And secondly, you never mention anything about repentance and conversion. "REPENT AND BELIEVE" Your witness is "accept what Jesus did and 'poof', you are going to heaven". Wrong.

Again, my issue is with your OSAS fantasy. Unfortunately, it carries over into your witness. It gives people a false gospel and removes what Jesus specifically taught. IF you take Him as you Lord and King, you should obey Him. Not because it earns you anything, but because we are good and faithful servants who do what our master expects. By presenting the "you are already justified forever in God's eyes", you give a false gospel - It totally removes the whole POINT of sanctification.

Think about it. What is the POINT of sanctification IF Christ's alien righteousness totally engulfs us? Who CARES then how holy we are to become or whether we turn from sin! We'll sneak into heaven under Christ's alien righteousness and the Father will never know that we are really not holy. You turn God into either an old fool or someone who pretends we are good when we really are evil. What a sham...

God desires to SHARE His Divine Nature - to MAKE us holy. He doesn't need to PRETEND! He can make us holy through the Spirit working in us. We can be RIGHTEOUS in His eyes, as Scriptures relate over and over again. Unfortunately, your incorrect interpretation of Romans 3 forces you to ignore huge sections of Scriptures.

Think about it. Yours is a false gospel not because you preach Jesus risen, but because you destroy the on-going process of being MADE holy by the power of the Spirit. You destroy Jesus' primary teachings, keeping people from entering the Kingdom of God.

As to your understanding of Catholicism, it is obvious that you judge it based on your incorrect definition of what a "work" is. How are you going to understand God's Word if you continue in your ignorance of such basic things?

Regards