Comma Johanneum/Changing of the Bible.

[Qoheleth]

Apparently this section of the New Testament In 1 John,

5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."was not in Older versions of the New Testament, nor in any of the Greek manuscripts and was one of the many proposed edits to the New Testament.



The parts of the text in bold are the Comma Johanneum, and are the basis of the 3 in 1 doctrine. Yet since it was not in the original texts is it right not to question the 3 in 1 doctrine and believe it wholeheartedly?



This was news to me when I first discovered this information. I just wanted to open a discussion on it and hear your thoughts.

 

[farouk]

Q:

A huge amount of words have been written about this, but if you think the whole truth of the Trinity rests on this verse, you are very much mistaken. There is plenty of Biblical evidence for God in three Persons.

 

[Qoheleth]

Q:

A huge amount of words have been written about this, but if you think the whole truth of the Trinity rests on this verse, you are very much mistaken. There is plenty of Biblical evidence for God in three Persons.

Yes but the edits that support the Trinity weren't in the original Greek nor was the resurrection :/, that's the problem. Also in the Old Testament I remember the Israelites singing "Hear, O Israel: the LORD is our God, the LORD is one," found in Deuteronomy 6:4

 

[farouk]

Yes but the edits that support the Trinity weren't in the original Greek

Q:

You are doing exactly what I suspected. You are trying to use one verse to disprove the Trinity, a Biblical doctrine, on this Christian site. As I said, there is plenty of Biblical evidence for God in three Persons, and for the Resurrection, for that matter.

 

[Qoheleth]

Q:

You are doing exactly what I suspected. You are trying to use one verse to disprove the Trinity, a Biblical doctrine, on this Christian site. As I said, there is plenty of Biblical evidence for God in three Persons, and for the Resurrection, for that matter.

I'm just asking for understanding

Really I would like you to explain to me why that verse in Deuteronomy is of no longer valid and also where the other verses are that support the Trinity and if those said verses were in the Original Greek.

 

[farouk]

I'm just asking for understanding

Really I would like you to explain to me why that verse in Deuteronomy is of no longer valid and also where the other verses are that support the Trinity and if those said verses were in the Original Greek.

I not convinced you honestly want to know. I sincerely hope you do.

But we are not speaking of Three Gods: this would be a contradiction to the Deuteronomy verse. Rather, God is in Three Persons. There is another thread on here where there is discussion of exactly this truth. If you read John's Gospel, chapters 13 to 17, John's Epistle, the end of Matthew 28, and so forth, you will see plenty of evidence for God in Three Persons. Psalm 2 speaks of the Son. Psalm 139 speaks of the Spirit: you see, even in the Old Testament.

 

[Qoheleth]

I not convinced you honestly want to know. I sincerely hope you do.

But we are not speaking of Three Gods: this would be a contradiction to the Deuteronomy verse. Rather, God is in Three Persons. There is another thread on here where there is discussion of exactly this truth. If you read John's Gospel, chapters 13 to 17, John's Epistle, the end of Matthew 28, and so forth, you will see plenty of evidence for God in Three Persons. Psalm 2 speaks of the Son. Psalm 139 speaks of the Spirit: you see, even in the Old Testament.

As a side note: psalm 2 is actually speaking of Israel.
adn the Spirt in palm 139 is the Spirit of YHWH. Not actually the Holy Spirit which is revered as part of the Christian Triune.

 

[Tina]

The Bible scriptures provide all the answers to support the trinity concept of the Father God, Son Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit ...



John 14:6-7
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Matthew 3:16
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him."

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

John 9:38
Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.

John 10:30
Jesus said : I and the Father are one.

John 14:9-10
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 20:28
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Luke 24:52
Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

John 14:16-17
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth.

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26
"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?

Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

2 Peter 1:1
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours.

2 Peter 1:21
For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:38
God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

 

[farouk]

Q: Psalm 2 ties in closely with Acts 13 and Hebrews 1.

 

[Qoheleth]

The Bible scriptures provide all the answers to support the trinity concept of the Father God, Son Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit ...



John 14:6-7
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Matthew 3:16
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him."

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

John 9:38
Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.

John 10:30
Jesus said : I and the Father are one.

John 14:9-10
Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

John 20:28
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9
Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

Luke 24:52
Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy.

2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

John 14:16-17
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth.

John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26
"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?

Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

1 Peter 1:2
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

2 Peter 1:1
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours.

2 Peter 1:21
For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:38
God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

The point is though we need some Scripture to support the Trinity from the Old Testament. As the New Testament is under question in this post becuase of the Comma Johanneum.

 

[Qoheleth]

Q: Psalm 2 ties in closely with Acts 13 and Hebrews 1.

But of course it would as the former Scriptures were written long after and could have easily "forced" it to match. If I were to write a "New New Testament" I could force it to match every thing in the New Testament and people in 2000 years and several crusades would take it as truth.

 

[Free]

Apparently this section of the New Testament In 1 John,

5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."was not in Older versions of the New Testament, nor in any of the Greek manuscripts and was one of the many proposed edits to the New Testament.



The parts of the text in bold are the Comma Johanneum, and are the basis of the 3 in 1 doctrine. Yet since it was not in the original texts is it right not to question the 3 in 1 doctrine and believe it wholeheartedly?



This was news to me when I first discovered this information. I just wanted to open a discussion on it and hear your thoughts.

It is such an obvious statement of the Trinity that it is questionable and that is why I never use it in such discussions. However, as has been stated, there are many passages in Scripture which support the idea of a triune God.

 

[Free]

The point is though we need some Scripture to support the Trinity from the Old Testament.

No, not necessarily.

 

[Qoheleth]

It is such an obvious statement of the Trinity that it is questionable and that is why I never use it in such discussions. However, as has been stated, there are many passages in Scripture which support the idea of a triune God.

No, not necessarily.

Firstly, you shouldn't use it because it was edited in by Desiderius Erasmus 5th century. So it immediately falls into question, or it should do if we are to critically think.

Secondly, it is necessary to get "Old Testament" scripture to support the Trinity to provide it a valid foundation in truth and so far no one has been able to provide any

 

[Tina]

But of course it would as the former Scriptures were written long after and could have easily "forced" it to match. If I were to write a "New New Testament" I could force it to match every thing in the New Testament and people in 2000 years and several crusades would take it as truth.

That was certainly not the way the NT was written.

The early church could have edited 1 John 5:7 to support the doctrine of trinity but it does not mean every other NT scripture was changed, nor that the NT was "forced" written to match with OT.

 

[Qoheleth]

That was certainly not the way the NT was written.

The early church could have edited 1 John 5:7 to support the doctrine of trinity but it does not mean every other NT scripture was changed, nor that the NT was "forced" written to match with OT.

But then wouldn't that then falsify the rest of the New Testament teachings and bring the entire work into question. Also wouldn't this doctrine then cause you to be worshipping more than one God and putting other Gods on level with or above the Most High?

 

[Free]

Firstly, you shouldn't use it because it was edited in by Desiderius Erasmus 5th century. So it immediately falls into question, or it should do if we are to critically think.

My point was that it's obviousness supports the idea that it was likely not a part of the original text. Of course that doesn't mean it is in disagreement with the rest of the Bible, just that one shouldn't use it to support the Trinity.

Secondly, it is necessary to get "Old Testament" scripture to support the Trinity to provide it a valid foundation in truth and so far no one has been able to provide any

If something isn't revealed in the OT and only in the NT, how does that make it any less true? Something need not be delineated in the OT in order to "provide it a valid foundation in truth."

 

[Qoheleth]

My point was that it's obviousness supports the idea that it was likely not a part of the original text. Of course that doesn't mean it is in disagreement with the rest of the Bible, just that one shouldn't use it to support the Trinity.


If something isn't revealed in the OT and only in the NT, how does that make it any less true? Something need not be delineated in the OT in order to "provide it a valid foundation in truth."

Well we know that the Old Testament was the word of the Most High and he revealed secrets unto his prophets. If they never mentioned anything of it there is a danger in believing it.

YHWH wouldn't have kept a secret this huge especially considering the amount of time he spent speaking of how he stands alone and he is the only saviour.

 

[Tina]

Secondly, it is necessary to get "Old Testament" scripture to support the Trinity to provide it a valid foundation in truth and so far no one has been able to provide any

The Son was only revealed in the NT and the Holy Spirit was only poured out on believers in the NT.

Thus the NT is the best place to unveil salient truths about the Trinity, although they are not entirely absent in the OT either.

 

[farouk]

But then wouldn't that then falsify the rest of the New Testament teachings and bring the entire work into question. Also wouldn't this doctrine then cause you to be worshipping more than one God and putting other Gods on level with or above the Most High?

Q:

Unsound assumption. There is more textual evidence for the New Testament than for so many other ancient doctrines. The truth of God in three Persons doesn't rest on one verse. As you know.