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Conditional Immortality through the years

guibox

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Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
1,255
This post of mine seemed to go ignored and/or missed in the 'Hell' thread and I feel it is important to note. Too many like to play the 'cult card' when it comes to denying the immortality of the soul and belief in conditional immortality. Here are many since the reformers who didn't belong to any 'cult' as some define still denied the Greek belief of the immortality of the soul.

Please read what they have to say...

MARTIN LUTHER (1493-1546) "We should learn to view out death in the right light, so that we need not become alarmed on account of it, as unbelief does; because in Christ it is indeed not death, but a fine, sweet and brief sleep, which brings us release from this vale of tears, from sin and from the fear and extremity of real death and from all the misfortunes of this life, and we shall be secure and without care, rest sweetly and gently for a brief moment, as on a sofa, until the time when He shall awaken us together with all His dear children to His eternal glory and joy..."

"For since we call it a sleep, we know that we shall not remain in it, but be again awakened and live, and that the time during which we sleep, shall seem no longer than if we had just fallen asleep. Hence we shall censure ourselves that we were surprised or alarmed at such a sleep in the hour of death, and suddenly come alive out of the grave and from decomposition, and entirely well, fresh, with a pure, clear, slorified life, meet our Lord and savior jesus Christ in the clouds..."

"Scripture everywhere affords such consolation, which speaks of the death of the saints, as if they fell asleep and were gathered to their fathers, that is had overcome death through this faith and comfort in Christ, and awaited the resurrection, together with the saints who preceeded them in death."

[ A Compend of Luther's Theology, edited by Hugh Thomson Ker, Jr., page 242 ] "Luther espoused the doctrine of the sleep of the soul, upon a scripture foundation, and then he made use of it as a confutation of purgatory, and saint worship, and continued in that belief to the last moment of his life."**** [ Short Historial View of the Controversy Concerning an Intermediate State, by Archdeacon Francis Blackburne, pub. 1765 ]

(guibox's note)**** In fairness to the other side, there is evidence that Luther did in fact change his views on this matter near the end of his life.

WILLIAM TYNDALE (1484-1536) English Bible translator and martyr. Tyndale supported Luther in the revived teaching of conditional immortality, and it brought with him into direct conflict with the church of Rome.

"And ye, in putting the departed souls in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherein Christ and Paul prove the resurrection... and again, if the souls be in heaven... then what cause is there of the resurrection?"

"The true faith setteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, sis set forth the souls did ever live. And the Pope joineth the spirtual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-mined Pope Consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the scripture to stablish it." [ An answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialog, 1850 reprint ]

JOHN FRITH (1500-1533) Associate of Tyndale and fellow martyr. "...that some are already in hell and some in heaven, which thing ye shall never be able to prove by the scriptures..."

GEORGE WISHART (1500-1546) Greek scholar, tutor of John Knox, and martyr. Wishart was charged with attacking auricular confession, transubstantiation, extreme unction, holy water, invocation of saints, and purgatory. "Charge XVI" was for promulgating the doctrine of the sleep of the soul.

"GENERAL BAPTISTS" were spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England. As one article of faith they held "that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure or pain, but is in a state of insensibility." [ Institutes of Ecclesiastical history by Johann L. von Mosheim ]

R. OVERTON Scholar, soldier, and pamphleteer. "...as whole man sinned, so whole man died..." "...the present going of the soul into heaven or hell is a meer fiction: at the resurrection is the beginning of our immortality, and then actual condemnation or salvation, and not before." [ Man's Mortality, pub. 1643 ]

JOHN MILTON (1608-1674) 'Greatest of the sacred poets' and Latin secretary to Cromwell. "Inasmuch as the whole man is uniformly said to consist of body, and soul... I will show, that in death, first, the whole man, and secondly each component part, suffers privation of life... the grave is the common guardian of all till the day of judgement."

ARCHBISHOP JOHN TILLOTSON of Canterbury (1630-1694) "I do not find that the doctrine of the immortality of the soul is anywhere expressly delivered in scripture, but taken for granted." [ Works, 1717 edition, Vol 1, pg. 749 ] The 18th Century:

HENRY LAYTON (1670-1706) Anglican, author of 12 books on conditionalism. “During life we live and move in Christ; and when we die we rest and sleep in him, in expectation of being raised at His second coming. “

JOSEPH SCOTT, M.D. (1703) 1769) Minister His published sermons maintain that life is for the righteous only, with destruction for the wicked.

DR. JOSEPH PRIESTLEY (1733-1804) Unitarian, scientist, philosopher. “The "state of the soul in death" is one of utter insensibility, as much dead as the body itself while it continues in the state of death.â€Â

BISHOP EDMOND LAW (1703-1787) Master of St. Peter's College, Bishop of Carlisle. Held death to be a sleep, a negation of all life, thought, or action -- a state of rest, oblivion.

ARCHDEACON FRANCIS BLACKBURNE of Cleveland (1705-1787) Wrote the most complete history of the topic in the 18th century; published in 1765.

DAVID DAVIES Rector, St. Mary Magdalen, St. Leonard-on-the-sea, Britain.
"The soul of a man is not necessarily automatically immortal. It is capable of being destroyed. The Bible offers no ground whatsoever for believing that the soul is immune from death and destruction. The soul CAN be destroyed."

"The immortality of the soul is NOT a Biblical doctrine, but GREEK PHILOSOPHY. The Biblical doctrine about the soul is the resurrection of the dead. Man is a created being. God created him out of nothing. Man was created for immortality, but by his own rebellion against God he made himself mortal..."

"The idea of the 'immortality of the soul' derives from Greek Philosophy which conceuved the after-life of Hades..." [ The Art of Dodging Repentance, pub. 1952, pg. 84 ]

DR. EMIL BRUNNER Born 1889, professor of systematic and practical theology, University of Zurich, guest professor at Princeton, and International Christian University, Tokyo.
"According to PLATOISM: the body is mortal, the soul immortal. The moral husk conceals this external essence which in death is freed from its outer shell... but this solution to the problem of death stands in irreconcilable opposition to Christian thought."
"For the history of western though, the Platonic teaching of the immortality of the soul became of special significance. It penetrated so deeply into the thought of western man because, although with certain modifications, it was assimilated by Christian theology and church teaching, was even declared by the Lateran Council of 1513 to be a dogma, to contradict which was a heresy." [ Eternal Hope, pub. 1954, pg. 100 ]

DR. WILLIAM THOMPSON (1819-1890)
Archbishop DR. EDWARD WHITE (1819-1887)[/b]
DR. LYMAN ABBOTT (1835-1992)
Congregationalist DR. JOHN THOMAS (1805-1971)[/b]
H.H. DOBNEY (1809-1883)
ARCHBISHOP RICHARD WHATELY (1787-1863)
DEAN HENRY ALFORD (1810-1871)
Canterbury JAMES PANTON HAM (1849)
DR. JOSEPH PRIESTLEY (1733-1804)
Congregationalist CHARLES F. HUDSON (1821-1867)
Greek Scholar DR. ROBERT W. DALE (1829-1895)
Editor DEAN FREDERICK FARRAR (1831-1903)
Dean WILLIAM GLADSTONE (1809-1898)
Prime Minister JOSEPH PARKER (1830-1902)
London Pastor SIR GEORGE STOKES (1820-1903)
Cambridge DR. R. F. WEYMOUTH (1820-1902)
Headmaster DR. GEORGE Boardman (1828-1903)
First Baptist BISHOP CHARLES ELLICOTT (1820-1905)

You can also add OSCAR CULLMAN, renowned Reformed theologian of the 50s and 60s to those ranks as well. PM me for a link to his excellent work 'Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Body?'

It's almost impossible to list all the great Christian leaders who have believed in the sleep of the soul in death, let alone be able to quote them all. Hundreds upon hundreds of learned Christian scholars, theologians and church leaders from Protestant to even CATHOLIC! throughout history have believed in "conditional immortality" as taught in the Bible and rejected the Catholic/Greek belief of immortality of the soul.

So...the denial of the immortality of the soul has been believed in and taught by thousands of theologians since the old reformation days of Martin Luther, and not merely 'cults' as many try to fall back on.
 

mutzrein

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Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
2,734
Guibox - I'm perplexed at how folks can proclaim the immortality of the soul when, to me, it is the spirit that gives immortality or eternal life. So are you talking about immortality perse (whether it be spirit or soul) or are you saying that immortality is given to the soul outside of the realm of the spirit.
 
S

Spirit Driven

Guest
God created him out of nothing. Man was created for immortality, but by his own rebellion against God he made himself mortal..."

I have to disagree with you on this point..... man is not capable of doing anything on his own..... God planned the down fall of Adam because he was made as a vessel for dis honor from the begining....... only the potter has right over the clay..... much later on we find out that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom, because that was Gods original intention...... not because of anything man could do... it was God that shut up Adam in disobedience in the first place.

The Bible has many references, about 25 I think as to how the dead know nothing.
Actualy when you look at the Bible closely you will notice that there are 2 Gospels, the first Gospel is the pre redemption ministry of Christ given to the Jews by 4 of the Disciples...... then we have the second Gospel given to Paul by the glorified and risen Christ.... the Gospel of Grace to the Gentiles....


Peace
 

guibox

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Joined
Nov 30, 2004
Messages
1,255
mutzrein said:
Guibox - I'm perplexed at how folks can proclaim the immortality of the soul when, to me, it is the spirit that gives immortality or eternal life. So are you talking about immortality perse (whether it be spirit or soul) or are you saying that immortality is given to the soul outside of the realm of the spirit.
The above proponents, I believe, are disputing the believe that man has an inherent immortal 'soul' that survives our physical death. It is possible that some of the above do believe that God gives immortality through the resurrection of Jesus so part of me 'does go to heaven at death', but many believe in conditional immortality that is only realized at the resurrection.

However mutz, you bring up a continual source of confusion that so many take for granted and don't think out.

Is it the soul or the spirit? Too many use them interchangeably and when they try to 'prove' the immortality of the soul, they use texts like both Genesis 35 where it says that Rachel' 'soul' left her, and the texts of both Christ and Stephen where they say, 'into thy hands I commit my spirit'.

The problem here is two fold:

1) Nowhere are these two passges related in their use of 'soul' and 'spirit'

2) Neither one proves that the thinking, spiritual, cogitating, feeling part of man goes to heaven when I die

People can't make up their mind which one they want to talk about or believe so they throw out verses willy-nilly with no context or explanation, combining them when they want and separating them when it's convenient and call it 'truth'.
 

mutzrein

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Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
2,734
guibox said:
The above proponents, I believe, are disputing the believe that man has an inherent immortal 'soul' that survives our physical death. It is possible that some of the above do believe that God gives immortality through the resurrection of Jesus so part of me 'does go to heaven at death', but many believe in conditional immortality that is only realized at the resurrection.

However mutz, you bring up a continual source of confusion that so many take for granted and don't think out.

Is it the soul or the spirit? Too many use them interchangeably and when they try to 'prove' the immortality of the soul, they use texts like both Genesis 35 where it says that Rachel' 'soul' left her, and the texts of both Christ and Stephen where they say, 'into thy hands I commit my spirit'.

The problem here is two fold:

1) Nowhere are these two passges related in their use of 'soul' and 'spirit'

2) Neither one proves that the thinking, spiritual, cogitating, feeling part of man goes to heaven when I die

People can't make up their mind which one they want to talk about or believe so they throw out verses willy-nilly with no context or explanation, combining them when they want and separating them when it's convenient and call it 'truth'.
Alright then - so to clarify my position further, the soul is mortal and perishes with rest of the body at (physical) death. The spirit, on the other hand, is what gives man (eternal) life.

And just to stir the pot a little more I don't believe that all of mankind has a spirit. Rather, only those who are born of the Spirit of God have (eternal) life. So, unless one is born of the Spirit, there is no 'afterlife'. As John 3:16 says, they 'perish'.
 
O

Oscar3

Guest
Eternal torment or annihilation?

Hell is annihilation and not eternal punishment
Man has no conscious existence apart from the body after he dies
False teachers of annihilation: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, Seventh-day Adventists, Herbert W. Armstrong/plain truth magazine.

Annihilationists argue that if you burn some paper, it is eternally destroyed and that is how we should view hell. Lets check it out in the Bible!



Annihilation is a member of "Domino Theology" family of doctrines
(Refute one element & refute the whole system!)



See also: Debate: Truth vs. an annihilationist!

This outline is dedicated to:

1. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, who were thrown into a furnace of fire, yet were not consumed. Dan 3:19
2. Moses, who saw the burning bush (pictured right) that was not consumed by fire. Ex 3:2
3. And to God, who can do all things!




Burning Bush

What hell is not:

Dante’s hell


Annihilationists like to refute this false concept of hell invented by an antagonist named "Dante". When Annihilationists refute this concept of hell, Bible believers wonder what the point is? Their false doctrine of annihilation is not proved right, just because they prove Dante’s equally false concept of hell wrong! Yet you will notice that almost all annihilationists dishonestly try to represent Dante’s false view of hell as that which orthodox Christians believe!

Catholic
Purgatory


Purgatory is another false view of hell. It is taught by Catholics. They got it from the uninspired writings of the apocrypha. Purgatory is where you can be tormented for a time to pay for your own sins, then enter paradise! None of this is what Christians teach!

Hades


Hell and Hades are two different places at two different times. Departed spirits of men go to Hades and await judgement. After judgement, the wicked will be cast into Hell. Arians always confuse the two!



Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
1 Cor 15:53
All men’s bodies will become immortal at the resurrection

Man’s body is not immortal right now.

1. Man is not immortal YET, but will be made that way! But mortality corresponds to the body. It is the body that will be made immortal, not the soul!
2. "The real issue between Dualists and Annihilationists is nothing other than this: Does Scripture teach that the wicked will be made immortal for the purpose of suffering endless pain; or does it teach that the wicked following whatever degree and duration of pain God may justly inflict, will finally and truly die, perish and become extinct forever and ever?" (The Fire That Consumes, Edward W. Fudge, Annihilationist, p. 425)

First we notice that we as Christians are to seek immortality. Obviously we do not possess it yet if we seek it


Rom 2:7 "to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life"

Second at resurrection the mortal (us now with a physical mortal body) will put on the immortal (all men will have an immortal body)


1 Cor 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

Now this is a powerful argument against annihilation. If ALL MEN both good and WICKED put on immortality at the resurrection, then how do they then cease to exist? What kind of immortality is that? Hence eternal torment! Never to die again! Man's body is not immortal now, but will be made so. All men, whether good or wicked! Man survives death consciously, then at resurrection is made immortal!

How can the wicked suffer the second death if they are immortal and then suffer the second death? If the wicked die again, then how can:


"come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory?" 1 Cor 15

1. Simple, mortal refers to the body part not the soul. when man dies he survives death consciously. After resurrection, his immortal spiritual body is given to him and he will never again be apart from his body. IMMORTAL. But the second death is not the separation of the body and soul, but the separation of man from God for eternity in hell!
2. Remember, the saying, "Death is swallowed up in victory" will come about at the final resurrection. If the wicked die PHYSICALLY again, then God was wrong when he said: "when this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."" Obviously this was not true, for the wicked are swallowed up in physical death and death keeps its victory forever!

While living


We are a spirit with a physical body

While dead in Hades


We are a spirit without a physical body

after resurrection


We are a spirit with a spirit body, just like Christs! 1 Jn 3:2; Phil 3:20-21

This argument is irrefutable unless one:

1. denies that the wicked are even raised from the dead as Christadelphians do thus contradicting "
2. there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." Acts 24:15 affirms that none of 1 Cor 15 has anything to say about the resurrection of the wicked, the central resurrection chapter of the Bible.
Yet v22 proves this applies to ALL MEN! "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."



The #1 argument annihilationists use:
(Notice it is an argument of human reasoning, not scripture)

Herbert W. Armstrong and his many splinter groups state:

A loving God wouldn’t torment forever his creation


A loving God will torment forever his creation

Our God is a loving, merciful Father who does not want to consign anyone to that fate. (What Happens After Death?, United Church of God, an International Association)


"The verse ... Rev 20:10 ... indicates that the devil is to be cast into the lake of fire that had already consumed and destroyed the beast and false prophet. Satan, being spirit, is the one who will be tormented forever. The evil angels-the demons-will be included with Satan in his torment" (What Happens After Death?, United Church of God, an International Association)

Herbert W. Armstrong and many of his splinter groups have taken the unusual position that the Devil and his angels will be tormented forever.



Argument refuted:
You already worship and respect a God who is going to eternally torment the Devil and millions of angels! These spirit beings cannot be destroyed by fire! You already believe a loving God is going to do this!!! The Devil and man are both equally God’s creatures. The argument is completely inconsistent. The argument is so completely refuted, we have designated it a knock out punch!

Seventh-day Adventists & Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the devil and demons will be annihilated along with evil men. Christadelphians do not believe that the devil and demons are actual persons, but merely the personification of sin.

These annihilationists argue:

1. "Morally, the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is incompatible with the Biblical revelation of divine love and justice. The moral intuition God has implanted within our consciences cannot justify the insatiable cruelty of a God who subjects sinners to unending torments. Such a God is like a bloodthirsty monster and not like the loving Father revealed to us by Jesus Christ." (a SDA leader)
2. "The doctrine of eternal torment is a wicked defamation of Jehovah. It is a foul stain upon his lovable name." (a Jw leader)
3. And now, who is responsible for this God-dishonoring doctrine? And what is his purpose? The promulgator of it is Satan himself; and his purpose in introducing it has been to frighten the people away from studying the Bible and to make them hate God. (Jw’s: J. F. Rutherford, Watchtower Society's Second President)
4. How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness whose ways include inflicting everlasting torture upon his creatures, however sinful they may have been? Surely a God who would do such a thing is more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards, and by the gospel itself. (Clark Pinnock, Professor, McMaster University)

Argument refuted:


This argument is faulty human reasoning and not based on any passage of the Bible. We may not understand the justice of God by eternally punishing the wicked. Yet we also do not understand the grace of God by rewarding the saved with eternal life. On human terms, we cannot understand either "kindness and severity of God" Rom 11:22

Wicked Men, the devil and his angels will be tormented forever:

The devil & his angels tormented forever


Wicked men tormented forever

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Rev 14:10-11 he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The devil and angels are just as much God’s creation as man, therefore the argument is invalid!

1. Unsaved men spend eternity in the same place as the Devil and his angels: Rev 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
2. According to annihilationists, man is wholly physical and the devil is wholly spiritual (a created spirit being). Yet both will be thrown into the same place! Obviously then, man is not wholly physical, but has a spiritual side, just like the devil.



Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Is the fire literal or figurative?

In case you had not noticed Arians, who take an entirely physical outlook of man have a real problem regardless of whether they take the fire of hell literal or symbolic.



Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Is the lake of fire and hell fire literal or symbolic?

H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups: Literal

Valley of Hinnom, located just outside the city of Jerusalem. You can see it in the maps at the back of your Bible.

H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups believe that this valley is where the wicked will literally be burnt with literal fire.


1. "gehenna and the lake of fire are the same. A very large fire would have the appearance of a fiery lake, hence its description". ... "flames of the "lake of fire" purify the earth's surface, burning in one vast worldwide holocaust 2 Pet. 3:10. ... all the things man has created be burned up, as well as the rest of those People who will not have received salvation and eternal life because of willful rebellion against God ... the wicked to be reduced to ashes by the fire which will consume the earth's surface" (WCG, What is hell? Ambassador BCC, Lesson 6, 1977)
2. This great fire is the same as the "lake of fire," mentioned in Revelation, when God judges the incorrigibly wicked. It will sweep around the entire earth! The elements themselves will be dissolved, the surface of the earth will be purged and consumed with tremendous heat. Every remnant of man's sin, every sign of iniquity, every last trace of evil will be devoured by the heat of this fire. (Heaven, Hell And The Hereafter, Triumph Prophetic Ministries (Church of God) W. F. Dankenbring)

Seventh-day Adventist: Literal and symbolic

1. Location of Hell ... this earth is reserved for that fire which will bring judgment and perdition to the wicked. Their punishment will be in this earth. ... The prophet portrays the entire planet enveloped in the destroying fire. Even the streams and dust are transformed into an exploding combustion of pitch and brimstone." ... This brings us to the third great fact about the subject of hell. Hell as a place of punishment will be this earth turned into a lake of fire at the Day of Judgment." (Seventh-day Adventist, Joe Crews, Amazing Facts, Hell-Fire)

Jehovah’s Witness: literal and Symbolic

1. "the surrounding language of the book of revelation make evident the symbolic quality of the lake of fire" (Jehovah’s Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Lake of fire)
2. "so also the revelation of Jesus Christ with his powerful angels in a flaming fire will result in permanent destruction only for the wicked 2 Pe 3:5-7" (Jehovah’s Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Fire)
3. "Symbolic of compete destruction . Jesus used Gehenna as a representative of utter destruction. ... the symbolic picture here" (Jehovah’s Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Gehenna)



Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Will the Hell fire ever burn out? All Arians say YES!

H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups:

1. "Even so it will be with the FINAL gehenna fire. It will be unquenched--but it will finally burn itself out!"(WCG, What is hell? Ambassador BCC, Lesson 6, 1977)
2. Many people believe in an ... ever-burning hellfire ... But the Bible's simple teaching conveys nothing of the kind. Our God is a loving, merciful Father who does not want to consign anyone to that fate. (What Happens After Death?, United Church of God, an International Association)
3. This is why Jesus calls it aionios or age-lasting fire! The translation "everlasting" is misleading, since the fire itself will not burn forever. Obviously not, since God's Word clearly shows that when the present earth is purged and purified, it will be refashioned into a resplendent NEW EARTH! ... Jude 7 calls this ancient punishment "eternal fire" -- yet, the fire which devoured these cities in ancient times is not still burning in Palestine today! It burned itself out, long, long ago! ... "Unquenchable Fire" Mark 9:43 ... Does this mean the fire burns forever? Not at all. Take a match, light it and set a piece of paper on fire. Let it burn. Don't put it out, or snuff it out. Just let the paper burn, until it burns up. Soon it will burn itself out. Now, what do you have? A burned-up piece of paper. But did you put it out? Did you "quench" it? No. You left it unquenched. It was not quenched. Not at all! Even so, the final Gehenna fire will not be "quenched," or "put out." Nevertheless, in time, it will burn itself out when the wicked and all their wicked works are burned up! Any fire will go out when it runs out of fuel. That's the way the final Gehenna fire will be. In time, it will naturally burn itself out!(Heaven, Hell And The Hereafter, Triumph Prophetic Ministries (Church of God) W. F. Dankenbring)

Seventh-day Adventist:

1. the New Testament references to "eternal punishment" (Matt 25:46), "eternal destruction" (2 Thess 1:9), "eternal fire" (Matt 25:41; Jude 7), and "eternal judgment" (Heb 6:2), do not necessarily mean a process that goes on forever. ... The actual duration of aionos is determined by the context. For example, the fire by which the wicked are punished is said to be "eternal" (Matt 18:8; 25:41) or "unquenchable" (Matt 3:12). This can hardly mean that the wicked will be agonizing forever in the midst of unextinguishable fire. The latter is clear from Jude 7, which says that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered "a punishment of eternal fire." Here "eternal-aionou" obviously means not never-ending but complete and permanent. (SDA, Samuele Bacchiocchi, Advent Hope For Human Hopelessness)
2. the fire is "eternal–aionios," not because of its endless duration, but because of its complete consumption and annihilation of the wicked. (SDA, Samuele Bacchiocchi, ch 6, Hell: Eternal Torment Or Annihilation)
3. "the length of punishment. HOW long will the wicked continue to live and suffer in that fire? ... one thing we can say with certainty--the wicked won't live in that fire throughout eternity." (Seventh-day Adventist, Joe Crews, Amazing Facts, Hell-Fire)

Jehovah’s Witness:

1. "Some commentators have pointed to the Biblical instances of the word torment to support the teaching of eternal suffering in fire. However, ... Rev 20:10 does not have that sense." (Jehovah’s Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Torment)



Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Rev 20:10 Will the Devil be tormented forever in the lake of fire?

H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups: YES (see below)

Christadelphians: NO! (The devil doesn’t exist.)

Jehovah’s Witness: NO

1. "those cast into the lake of fire, [devil is cast there] go into second death from which there is no resurrection" (Jehovah’s Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Lake of fire)
2. "Some commentators have pointed to the Biblical instances of the word torment to support the teaching of eternal suffering in fire. However, ... Rev 20:10 does not have that sense." (Jehovah’s Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Torment)

Seventh-day Adventist: NO

1. "sinners, Satan, and the devils ultimately are consumed in the lake of fire and experience the extinction of the second death" (SDA, Samuele Bacchiocchi, ch 6, Hell: Eternal Torment Or Annihilation)
2. Malachi 4:1 "the day is coming, burning like a furnace ... so that it will leave them neither root nor branch" No words of any language could make it more forceful or clear. This eternal fire burns up eternally. Even Satan, the root, is finally consumed. (Seventh-day Adventist, Joe Crews, Amazing Facts, Hell-Fire)



Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
How can the Devil be tormented forever, if the hell fire burns out?

Exclusive to H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups:

1. The verse ... Rev 20:10 ... indicates that the devil is to be cast into the lake of fire that had already consumed and destroyed the beast and false prophet. Satan, being spirit, is the one who will be tormented forever. The evil angels-the demons-will be included with Satan in his torment (Matthew 25:41). (What Happens After Death?, United Church of God, an International Association)
2. "Satan will be cast into the same conflagration that will destroy all incorrigible mortals. Rev. 20:10 But since he is a spirit being, he will not be destroyed by the flames (see Luke 20:36) Revelation 20:10 shows Satan himself is to be TORMENTED unto the ages of the ages--"FOREVER AND EVER"! His torment will last forever. But not this fire. It will last only as long as combustible material remains to be consumed. Satan's torment, however, will continue forever as a mental anguish resulting from seeing all that he has striven toward, worked for, plotted for, burned up as the earth is purified by fire!"(WCG, What is hell? Ambassador BCC, Lesson 6, 1977)

Armstrong Refuted:


Only H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups believe the devil will be tormented forever.

One Neo-Sadducee refutes another: We are taking the unusual approach to let the Seventh-day Adventist church refute Armstrong. We agree with their comment.

1. "it is impossible to visualize how the devil and his angels, who are spirits could "be tormented [with fire] day and night for ever and ever" (Rev 20:10). After all, fire belongs to the material, physical world, but the devil and his angels are not physical beings. Eldon Ladd rightly points out: "How a lake of literal fire can bring everlasting torture to non-physical beings is impossible to imagine. It is obvious that this is picturesque language describing a real fact in the spiritual world: the final and everlasting destruction of the forces of evil which have plagued men since the garden of Eden." (SDA, Samuele Bacchiocchi, ch 6, Hell: Eternal Torment Or Annihilation)
2. Armstrong openly admitted that the devil being a spirit being, is different from men and must be tormented forever, "being as angels unable to die" they argue.



H. W. Armstrong Refuted:

How can Armstrong and splinter groups say that the Lake of Fire was designed specifically for the devil and his angels, then in reality, they are totally unaffected by it? Their eternal torment is not caused by the lake of fire, since they argue it goes out, but by mental anguish.

The argument is so completely refuted, we have designated it a knock out punch!

H. W. Armstrong Vs. H. W. Armstrong:

Term


applied to men Armstrong argues


applied to devil Armstrong argues

"Eternal fire"


Mt 18:8; Jude 7 "will burn out"


Mt 25:41 "will never burn out"

"eternal punishment"


Mt 25:46 punishment will stop


Rev 20:10 "punishment will never stop" "eternal punishing"

lake of fire (how can the lake of fire destroy flesh of men and spirit of devil in one place)


men composed of only of flesh will be cast in


devil composed only of spirit will be cast in but it will have no effect on the devil.

smoke of hell


Takes literally: "will one day be gone, invisible from the earth, like Sodom" Jude 7


Takes symbolically: "will always be visible" Rev 20:10



Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Which fits better?

"Once burnt - always burnt" or

"eternal conscious punishment"?


Annihilation


Eternal conscious punishment

The devil and his angels:

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.





Wicked men:

Rev 14:10-11 he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."




Punishment that goes on forever!

Mt 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."




Hell is a place of darkness reserved, not annihilation

Jude 13: "for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever" "outer Darkness" Lk 13:27




Hell is banishment away from God’s presence

2 Th 1:9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord




Hell is banishment away from God’s presence

"there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth there when you see Abraham in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being cast out." Mt 22:13




Hell is banishment away from God’s presence

"outside are the dogs" Rev 22:15
"assign him a place with the hypocrites" Mt 24:51








Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
False argument on Jude 7 debunked!

False argument:

It is argued that Sodom experienced the "punishment of eternal fire" and the fire has been out for 5000 years! This verse is said to prove that hell is an annihilation.

Jude 7


2 Pe 2:6

"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."


"He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly thereafter"

False argument refuted:

1. Annihilationists are forced to TAKE LITERALLY that hell is literal fire, brimstone, lake of fire, the garbage dump of Jerusalem (gehenna). Yet they quickly retreat from taking any of the symbols of hell literally, for they know it will cause them great problems in other areas are argumentation by which the will be refuted. See the
2. photogallery of hell for more. In short, annihilationists will not argue that hell is literal fire, yet here they are forced to take it literal, showing the typical inconsistency of their false doctrine. Jude is one of a large series of "examples" or "types" found in the New Testament.

Antitype
Shadow of what is to come: Col 2:17


Type


Text

Literal Incense


Symbolic incense: Prayer


Rev 5:8

Literal Candles


Symbolic candles: Christians are light


Rev 1:20

Literal Sanctuary


Symbolic sanctuary: Our bodies


1 Cor 6:19

Literal Instrumental music: Harp


Symbolic music: heart strings


Eph 5:19

Literal Priestly garments


Symbolic garments: Clothed by our deeds


Rev 19:8

Literal weekly Sabbath Day


Symbolic Sabbath day: Eternal rest in heaven


Heb 4

Sodom: Literal Fire and brimstone


Symbolic fire: Hell


Jude 7

So what happened to Sodom, is no more literal, than the Christian’s priestly garments (good deeds) or his incense (prayer). To point to Sodom and argue that is what hell literally is, is as wrong as to point to incense and argue that is what prayer literally is.

What is amazing is that Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, Seventh-day Adventists, H. W. Armstrong all teach that the fire of hell is symbolic! This completely agrees with the truth of what Jude 7 is saying and refutes their view of annihilation. One minute they argue the fire is symbolic, then when they come to Jude 7 they argue, "see the fire is literal and it doesn’t burn any more". Such flip flopping is the trade mark of false teachers that confuses their sorry disciples.





Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Blessings in Heaven are the same duration as the punishment in hell.



Heaven and Hell are same duration

Eternal/forever

Greek


Used of heaven


Used of hell

aion


Mt 25:46 but the righteous into life eternal.


1. Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life
2. eternal. 2 Thess 1:9 "these will pay the penalty of
3. eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord Mt 25:41 "Depart from me, ye cursed, into
4. everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" Jude 13 "for whom the black darkness has been reserved
forever"

aionios


Lk 18:30 in the age to come, eternal life.


1. Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up
2. forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night Rev 20:10 they will be tormented day and night
forever and ever.



Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Matthew 10:28 refutes annihilation

False Argument:


"God will destroy both body and soul in hell."

Refutation of Argument:


Jesus used two different Greek words to describe what man does and what God will do in hell. Man can kill



Mt 10:28


Lk 15:4


Lk 15:8

"And do not fear those who kill (apokteino) the body, but are unable to kill (apokteino) the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell."


"What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost (apollumi) one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost (apollumi), until he finds it?


"Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses (apollumi) one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it?"

APOKTEINO

to kill


apollumi
(a) lose, (Suffer) loss, lost
(b) destroy, destroyer, destruction, destructive

The sheep, coin and soul continue to exist even though lost!

The fact that Jesus changed words in Mt 10:28, proves that there is a difference in what man can do to man and what God can do to man.




Mt 10:28


Lk 12:4-5

Man can kill the body


"And do not fear those who kill (apokteino) the body,


Lk 12:4-5 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill (apokteino) the body

Man cannot kill the soul. Interesting, if hell is simply being thrown into a literal fire pit or dump, then why cannot man kill the soul. Why does God's act of throwing the same man into this same place destroy the soul? According to annihilationists, once man is killed, he ceases to exist. This proves that there is a conscious part of man that survives death.


but are unable to kill (apokteino) the soul;


and after that have no more that they can do.

God too can kill the body like man


-


"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who after He has killed (apokteino)

After the man is dead can cast into hell after judgement at the end of time. Notice that casting into hell in Luke is equated with the different Greek (apollumi) word in Matthew


but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell."


has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

These two verses actually refute annihilation.


Notice that Jesus uses one Greek word (apokteino) for what man can do and another Greek word (apollumi) for what God does at the end of time in hell. If the Greek words were the same, then annihilationists would have a possible argument.


Notice that Luke 12 indicates that God can kill the body, then afterward cast into hell. Hell never means the grave. According to annihilationists, a man is destroyed 100% at death. This verse proves otherwise!

The word destroy (apollumi) in Mt 10:28 doesn’t mean annihilation or a ceasing of existence.

Texts where (apollumi) is used:


Comment

Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell.


The Greek word, as proven below, does not mean annihilation, but a continuation of existence in a lost state or ruined state.

Mark 2:22 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost (apollumi), and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins."
Matt 9:17: "the wine pours out (apollumi)"


The wine, didn’t cease to exist, it was simply spilt on the ground

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost (apollumi) sheep of the house of Israel."


The sheep that are "destroyed" or "lost" in fact represent the lost who walk the earth right now! They clearly exist!

Luke 15:4,6 "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost (apollumi), until he finds it?" … "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost (apollumi)!’


The sheep still existed even though "destroyed" (apollumi)

Luke 15:8-9 "Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses (apollumi) one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost (apollumi)!"


The coin still existed even though "destroyed" (apollumi)

Luke 15:24,32 for this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost (apollumi), and has been found.’ And they began to be merry." … "But we had to be merry and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost (apollumi) and has been found."


The son still existed even though "destroyed" (apollumi)

John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes (apollumi), but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal."


The food goes bad and is unusable, it doesn’t cease to exist!

2 Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing (apollumi).


Notice, like the lost sheep, the lost are perishing (lost) NOW. This is present tense! They certainty exist even though perished!

2 Thess 1:9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

(the word "apollumi" is NOT USED in 2 Thess 1:9)


Although the word "apollumi" is NOT USED in this verse, notice that hell is explained as being "away from God’s presence and glory". This proves that hell is a banishment not an annihilation.

False argument refuted on Mt 10:28:

It is falsely argued by annihilationists, that in Mt 10:28 the word "apollumi" (Strongs #622) means to annihilate into non-existence because every other place this word is used in the TVM of #5658 (Tense - Aorist; Voice - Active; Mood - Infinitive) it means this. The truth is that we find most forms of the word used interchangeably. But remember they power of Mt 10:28 is that Jesus used two different words: Kill the body is all man can do, but destroy or "make lost" is what God does in Hell. Had Jesus used the same word in both instances, then annihilationists would have an argument because for them man can cause another man to cease to exist with a gun in the same way God can cause someone to cease to exist in Hell. But since two different words are used, our argument is powerful. Of course the most powerful argument we have is that only God can destroy the soul and man can only kill the body. The way annihilationists define man as a "mono-unit" of flesh alone, instead of a dichotomous combination of flesh and spirit like God, annihilationists simply cannot explain how man cannot kill the soul.



Here are the instanced in the Bible where "apollumi" is used in the TVM of #5658:

Apollumi #622 with TVM 5658 Aorist; Active; Infinitive: TO DESTROY

o Mt 2:13 for Herod will seek the young child
to destroy him. (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)

o Mt 10:28 fear him which is able
to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)

o Mk 1:24 What do we have to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come
to destroy us? (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)

o Lk 6:9 Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or
to destroy it? (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)

o Lk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come
to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)

o Lk 19:47 But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought
to destroy him, (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)

o Jas 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and
to destroy (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)

o Lk. 6:9 "is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good, or to do harm, to save a life, or
to destroy it?" (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)

But the difference between moods is irrelevant: Being in a state of destruction is equal to taking actions to bring someone into that state of destruction. So to say, "has lost" or "lose" or "had lost" are identical concepts as far as what the word itself means. The argument is invalid and displays a dismal understanding of simple Greek. With the same kind of Christadelphian reasoning, we could conclude that TVM 5660 only means "lost" since it is only used three times and each time it means "lost". Notice, however, that in Luke 9:25, the word LOST to denotes the equivalent to hell.

Apollumi #622 with TVM 5660 Aorist; Active; Participle: HAS LOST; LOSES

o Matthew 10:39 (5660 Aorist; Active; Participle) "he who
has lost his life for My sake shall find it."

o Luke 15:4 (5660 Aorist; Active; Participle) "if he has a hundred sheep and
has lost one of them"

o Luke 9:25 (5660 Aorist; Active; Participle) "For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and
loses or forfeits himself?"

Yet we find both the Subjunctive and the Indicative mood forms of the word Apollumi using both LOST AND DESTROY. This proves the Christadelphian argument false.

Apollumi #622 with TVM 5661 Aorist; Active; Subjunctive: LOSE; LOSES; DESTROY

o Matthew 16:25 (5661 Aorist; Active; Subjunctive) "whoever
loses his life for My sake shall find it."

o Luke 15:8 (5661 Aorist; Active; Subjunctive) "if she has ten silver coins and
loses one coin"

o Mt 12:14 (5661 Aorist; Active; Subjunctive) "counseled together against Him, as to how they might
destroy Him"

o John 10:10 (5661 Aorist; Active; Subjunctive) "The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and
destroy"

o John 6:39 (5661 Aorist; Active; Subjunctive) "all that He has given Me I
lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day"

Apollumi #622 with TVM 5656 Aorist; Active; Indicative: HAD LOST; DESTROYED

o Matthew 22:7 (5656 Aorist; Active; Indicative) "But the king was enraged and sent his armies, and
destroyed those murderers, and set their city on fire"

o Luke 15:9 (5656 Aorist; Active; Indicative) "I have found the coin which I
had lost!"

o Luke 17:29 (5656 Aorist; Active; Indicative) "it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and
destroyed them all"

o Jude 5 (5656 Aorist; Active; Indicative) "after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently
destroyed those who did not believe"

Here a couple of useful passages where the LXX uses the word:

* Is. 43:28 - "and the rulers defiled my holy things and I have given to destroy Jacob and Israel unto a reproach." "destroy" is APOLESAI
* Ezek. 30:11 - "to destroy the land" Here's something interesting - In Dan. 7:26 where the NAS has annihilated and destroyed, the LXX has AFANISAI and APOLESAI.

TVM Notes:

5656 Mood - Indicative The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood. (from: Logos Library systems: TVM)

5658 Mood - Infinitive: The Greek infinitive mood in most cases corresponds to the English infinitive, which is basically the verb with "to" prefixed, as "to believe." Like the English infinitive, the Greek infinitive can be used like a noun phrase ("It is better to live than to die"), as well as to reflect purpose or result ("This was done to fulfil what the prophet said"). (from: Logos Library systems: TVM)

5660 Mood - Participle: The Greek participle corresponds for the most part to the English participle, reflecting "-ing" or "-ed" being suffixed to the basic verb form. The participle can be used either like a verb or a noun, as in English, and thus is often termed a "verbal noun.") (from: Logos Library systems: TVM)

5661 Mood - Subjunctive The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina." (from: Logos Library systems: TVM)







Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
The physical creation will be annihilated, not men!

1. All Arians view that heaven is a physical restored paradise upon the earth. They have no concept of man’s spiritual existence apart from the Gen 1:1 creation. Yet the Bible clearly teaches that the physical creation that occurred some 10,000 years ago in Gen 1:1, will be "uncreated" Just as the 103 (?) elements of the periodic table came into existence at creation, they will go into extinction at the second coming: 2 Pe 3:10. Our eternal reward is a spiritual existence in the spiritual presence of God in the realm He has always existed in before Gen 1:1.

The wicked will not be annihilated But the heaven and earth will be annihilated!

W. E. Vine: LOU (3089) to loose, is used of the future demolition of the elements or heavenly bodies, 2 Pet. 3:10, 11, 12


2 Peter 3:6,9-12 "the world at that time was destroyed (Gr: apollumi), being flooded with water. ... The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish (Gr: apollumi) but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed (Gr: LOU) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed (Gr: LOU) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed (Gr: LOU) by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!"

1. This text provides a powerful argument for those who view the annihilation of men and the eternal continuity of the physical creation.
2. Notice that 2 Pe 3 describes BOTH the "perishing (apollumi) of men" and "destruction (LOU) of creation".
3. Two different words are used. Notice that "apollumi" is used to destruction of men and that LOU is used to describe the annihilation of the earth!
4. But even better notice that the flood perished "apollumi" the earth in the time of Noah and a different Greek word is used for the annihilation "LOU" of the earth by fire!
5. The conclusion is that "apollumi" describes not the annihilation, but "making lost" both men in hell and the earth at the Noaic flood and "LOU" describes the annihilation of the earth at the second coming!



Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Heaven and hell are described in word pictures that are not to be taken literally
see the photo gallery of heaven and hell



Heaven & Hell Are Spiritual not physical

1. Heaven is "not of this creation": Hebrews 9:11,24
2. God’s future kingdom is "not of this world or realm": John 18:36
3. Physical universe will be destroyed: 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:11
4. "Things seen are temporary, but things not seen are eternal": 2 Cor 4:18
5. "The first things have passed away": Revelation 21:4
6. Created things will be removed: Hebrews 12:25-27
7. No longer any sea, night, sun or moon: Revelation 21:1,23; 22:5
8. Heaven is in the very presence of the Father: John 13:36-14:6
9. We hope to "enter within the veil" where God dwells: Heb 6:19-20;10:19-20
10. We are earthbound guests with a heavenly destination: 1 Pe 1:17; Heb 13:14



Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Misused Proof Texts exposed

Various other annihilation proof texts debunked:

Psalm 37:19-22 They will not be ashamed in the time of evil; And in the days of famine they will have abundance. But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanishâ€â€like smoke they vanish away. The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives. For those blessed by Him will inherit the land; But those cursed by Him will be cut off.


This Psalm isn’t talking about eternal rewards and punishments at all. Rather is speaking about life on earth right now. Notice the context: "And in the days of famine they [righteous] will have abundance ... yet the wicked vanish like smoke" This vanishing takes place before resurrection. Are Annihilationists prepared to deny that the wicked are even raised? (Only a few isolated Christadelphian splinter groups would argue that the wicked dead are not raised! But then they must deal with Acts 24:15, "there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." Neo-Sadduceeism is always full of contradictions with scripture wherever it turns!)

Malachi 4:1-3 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the Lord of hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." "But for you who fear My name the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. "And you will tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the Lord of hosts.


This speaking of the time when Jesus would come. Notice v4 that Elijah (John the baptist) would come at the same time. It is not speaking of the final judgement. It also employs the same kind of word pictures typical of heaven and hell. This verse is no more literal than the imagery of Gehenna!



Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Word Studies!

Studies of words that annihilationists misuse to teach extinction:

These words do not teach annihilation!

"The annihilationists assemble a multitude of texts which in reality are either taken out of context or based on the false assumption that such words as ‘perish’ automatically and necessarily always mean annihilation." (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, Dualist, p. 119- 120)


destroy
perish
consumed
devoured

1. "Destroy": For example, in the Old Testament, the word ahvad is the word which is usually translated as "destroy." In Num. 21:29, the people of Chemosh were "undone" ("destroyed" in NIV). In the context, the meaning of ahvad is that the people were conquered and sold into slavery. They were not annihilated but enslaved. In 1 Sa. 9:3, 20, Saul's asses were ahvad, i.e., lost. These asses were not annihilated, but lost. In Psalms 31:12, an ahvad vessel is merely broken, not annihilated. In Hab. 1:15, the word Gah rar means to catch something in a net, not to annihilate it. Dah chah in Isa. 53:10 is translated, " It pleased the Lord to bruise him.". Here it refers to Christ's sufferings, not to nonexistence. In Hosea 4:6, God's people are "destroyed" for lack of knowledge. In the context, this cannot mean that they were nonexistent. The same can be pointed out in the case of hoom (Ps. 55:2) and ghah ram (Josh. 6:8; Mic. 4:13). In the Greek, apollumi is used to describe ruined wineskins, lost sheep, and spoiled food (Matt. 9:17; 15:24; John 6:27). Apolia in Mark 14:4 refers to wasted perfume. Diapthero refers to moth-eaten cloth in Luke 12:33 katheiresis to the pulling down of a fortress (2 Cor. 10:4) kataluo refers to lodging for the night (Luke 9:12) kataryco to a fig tree which "encumbered the ground" (Luke 13:7); luo refers to putting off one's shoes (Acts 7:33); portheo refers to persecuting the church in Gal. 1:13; phthiro refers to defiling the temple of God in 1 Cor. 3:17. The assumption that the words "destroy" and "destruction" automatically mean annihilation is not good English, much less good Hebrew or Greek. We can think of someone being "destroyed" or "wiped out" in an emotional sense without implying that the person has ceased to exist. ("Death and The Afterlife" by Robert Morey, p. 108-111)

2. "Perish" or "perished." In various forms the word "perish" appears 152 times in the KJV. In the Old Testament, there are 11 Hebrew words which are translated as "perish." The main word ahvad is the same word which is frequently translated as "destroy." We have already seen that it is erroneous to assume that ahvad means annihilation. Sha mad is found in Jer. 48:42 where Moab is said to be destroyed in the sense of the people being enslaved, not annihilated. Shah rhath is used of ruined girdles and vessels in Jer. 13:7; 18:4; kah rath is used of cutting a covenant or cutting timber to build the temple in Gen. 15:18; 1 Kings 5:6; eah vag. nah phal, and gah var are used to describe a miserable emotional state (Ps. 42:7; 55:4, 88:15,16). In the New Testament, there are ten different Greek words which are translated "perish." Some of these words such as apollumi were also translated as destroy and do not mean annihilation. Apothneesko is used in John 12:24 to describe the grain of wheat which when planted "dies" and then sprouts. Obviously, it cannot mean annihilation. Aphanrzo refers to things which moths and rust can "corrupt" (Matt. 6:19,20). Kataphthiro is used to describe "corrupt" minds in 2 Tim. 3:8 (KJV). Even in English we speak of fruit as "perishable" in the sense that it can spoil. Burned out light bulbs have "perished." In neither case is annihilation intended. ("Death and The Afterlife" by Robert Morey, p. 108-111)

3. "Consume" or "consumed.": Forms of these words appear in the KJV 162 times. In the Old Testament, 20 different Hebrew words are translated as "consume." The usual word, ah chal is also used in Ps. 78:45 where the psalmist says that the flies "devoured" or consumed the Egyptians. The psalmist surely means that the flies tormented them, not annihilated them. Jeremiah used another word, bah lah, in Lam. 3:4, saying that his flesh and skin were "made old," or consumed, i.e., he was consumed with grief, not annihilated. Kah lah is used in Ezek. 13:13 where hailstones "consumed" a wall, i.e., knocked it down, not annihilated it. Dah gach is the normal word for putting out a fire. When we "put out a candle," we do not annihilate the candle. Even in English we speak of people being consumed with "grief, greed or lust," yet we do not mean that the person has ceased to exist. We have demonstrated that the annihilationists are in error when they arbitrarily assume and then assert that such words as "perish" necessarily mean annihilation. Once this point is granted, one is no longer impressed by such works as Froom where hundreds of quotes from biblical and extra-biblical literature are given to prove conditionalism simply upon the erroneous assumption that the mere presence of such words in the text means that the authors believed in annihilationism. ("Death and The Afterlife" by Robert Morey, p. 108-111)



Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Is eternal conscious torment a pagan false doctrine and a Jewish fable?
Here we document that annihilationists all accept that the view we have proven true, namely eternal conscious torment, was widely believed in the ancient world. They argue that Jesus borrowed from these false pagan doctrines in his teaching on hell. We reject this, as it would mean that Jesus promoted false doctrine. As the spiritual eyes into the spirit world, we believe that Jesus’ teaching on eternal conscious torment is not untrue, simply because other cultures had similar views!

Introductory comment:

1. To think that Christ was ignorant of what Gehenna meant to the common people of His day or to assume that He was mistaken in using the rabbinic descriptions of Gehenna is to do great injustice to Him who was the greatest teacher who ever lived. Indeed, the mere fact that Christ utilized the rabbinic language connected with Gehenna, such as "unquenchable fire" and "never- dying worms," demonstrates beyond all doubt to any reasonable person that he deliberately used the word Gehenna to impress upon his hearers that eternal punishment awaits the wicked after the resurrection. No other conclusion is possible.
2. The greatest problem that Annihilationists face when examining the intertestamental (between the Old & New Testaments) literature, is that the doctrines of the existence of the soul after death and eternal punishing are often manifest, with no "introduction" as would be required by a "new teaching." The Annihilationist view is that between the Old and New Testaments, Platonic philosophy infiltrated true Bible doctrine and entirely new concepts were introduced to replace the old beliefs about the soul and punishment. Yet, strangely lacking are any evidences of controversy in this area of belief. The Annihilationist answer to that would be that there was evidence of a difference of belief in the intertestamental writings. But since they can produce no actual apologetic or actual conflict from the historical records, they must argue from the silence of some intertestamental writers, who may discuss the future of the righteous without mentioning the wicked. Sometimes, as in the case of Fudge's and the Adventist Froom's quoting from Tobit, where it says that the unrighteous shall cease from all the earth, they claim that that proves the writer did not believe in eternal punishing. That is indeed a poor argument.

Robert Morey, Dualist, comments:

1. First
2. , Gehenna is the place of judgement (Matt. 23:33). He even used the rabbinic expression, "the judgement of Gehenna" (Bab. Tal. ER126). Second
3. , Gehenna is always placed at the end of the world after the resurrection (Matt. 5:22; 23:33). This was expounded by John in Rev. 20:1-15. This was also the rabbinic position (Mid. Gen. 159). Third
4. , Gehenna is the place where the body as well as the soul is punished (Matt. 5:22; 10:28; Mark 9:43-48). The rabbis saw that the resurrection of the wicked was necessary in order for them to receive their full punishment in the body (Mid. Gen. 159; 211n4). Fourth
5. , Gehenna was the place of conscious torment. When Christ used the phrases "unquenchable fire" and "never-dying worms" (Mark 9:47,48, author's paraphrase), He was utilizing biblical (Isa 66:24), apocryphal (Judith XVI:17), and talmudic (Mid. Gen. 214) images which all meant conscious suffering. The annihilationists have a counter argument at this point. They point out that, literally speaking, while the worms and the fire in a city dump may destroy a dead carcass, it cannot be said that the dead carcass feels any torment. Therefore, they conclude that Christ's language must be interpreted to mean that the wicked will be annihilated, not tormented. The problem with this interpretation is that it fails to take into account that when Christ spoke of Gehenna in such terms as "worms and fire," He was clearly using rabbinic phraseology. Thus, it is more crucial to discover how these words were understood in rabbinic literature than by pointing to modern city dumps. The intertestamental literature is clear that the Jews believed that the departed could feel what was happening to their dead body. Indeed, when the worms start gnawing on the body, "the worms are as painful to the dead as a needle in the flesh of the living" (Bab. Tal. Shah. 777,778). Since the "gnawing worms" clearly meant conscious torment in rabbinic thought, the annihilationist's argument is invalid due to their ignorance of the meaning of such rabbinic terminology. That Judith XVI:17 also teaches conscious torment is clear. Fifth
, the wicked are cast into Gehenna and will remain there for all eternity (Matt. 5:29,30). In Gehenna, the wicked are "destroyed" (Matt. 10:28). That the word "destroyed" (apollumi) does not mean "to annihilate" or "to pass into nonexistence" is clear from the rabbinic meaning of the word, the lexicographical significance of the word, and the way the word is used in the New Testament. Thaver's Greek-English Lexicon defines apollumi as "to be delivered up to eternal misery" (p.36). Since Thayer himself was a Unitarian who did not believe in eternal punishment, his definition could only be the result of his knowledge of the meaning of his Greek word. There is no lexicographical evidence for the annihilationist's position that apollumi means "to annihilate" or "to pass into nonexistence." (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, Dualist, p. 89, 90)

Edward W. Fudge, Annihilationist

1. Between the Testaments a tendency arose in Jewish literature to relate visions of last things to names and persons from the Old Testament. Armageddon, Jerusalem and the Garden of Eden all became stylized descriptions of things to come. So did the Valley of Hinnom-gehenna. The thought of Gehenna as a place of eschatological punishment appears in intertestamental literature shortly before 100 B.C., though the actual place is unnamed. It becomes "this accursed valley" (l En. 27:2, 3), the "station of vengeance" and "future torment" (2 Bar. 59:10, ll), the "pit of destruction" (Pirke Aboth 5:19), the "furnace of Gehenna" and "pit of torment" (4 Esd. 7:36). (The Fire That Consumes, Edward W. Fudge, Annihilationist, p. 161)
2. The Babylonian Talmud had the worst Jewish sinners sentenced to Gehenna for 12 months. Then "their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious." All who enter Gehenna come out, with three exceptions: those who committed adultery or shamed their neighbors or vilified them. In the end, God would take the sun from its case, and it would heal the pious and punish the sinners. There would be no Gehenna in the future world. ["Ge-hinnom," The Jewish Encyclopedia, vol. 5, cols. 581-583] Some rabbis were sympathetic; others were harsh. One can find quotes of torment by snow, smoke, thirst and rebellious animals. Others speak of the righteous observing the torments of the damned, "tossing in their pain like the pieces of boiling meat in a cauldron." Still others, more benevolent, said light flooded even Gehenna each Sabbath, and the wicked, too, had a day of rest. On the duration of the punishment, the rabbis contradicted each other. Some believed that the pain would continue forever with or without Gehenna, while others ended punishment with the last judgement. Whether this last view allowed a future life for the wicked or looked for their total annihilation cannot be determined conclusively. (The Fire That Consumes, Edward W. Fudge, Annihilationist, p. 163)
 
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SputnikBoy

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Whew! At least you made some effort. One quick response from me, however ...the lost DO NOT RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE ...! THEY PERISH!

What part of the word 'perish' don't you understand, Oscar?
 

Atonement

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Oscar, please keep post shorter and to the point.

Thank you
 

mutzrein

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Oscar Oscar Oscar - would anyone WANT to read that?

I'm sorry but seeing a post of that length and text size turns me off no matter which side of the theological fence you are.
 

guibox

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mutzrein said:
Alright then - so to clarify my position further, the soul is mortal and perishes with rest of the body at (physical) death. The spirit, on the other hand, is what gives man (eternal) life.

And just to stir the pot a little more I don't believe that all of mankind has a spirit. Rather, only those who are born of the Spirit of God have (eternal) life. So, unless one is born of the Spirit, there is no 'afterlife'. As John 3:16 says, they 'perish'.
The only instance where people get this from is the texts that say, 'and the spirit goes back to God who gave it' when talking about Christ and Stephen.

The problem is interpreting the 'pneuma' or 'ruach' (both the same thing in the NT and the OT respectively) as the 'thinking, breathing, cogitating, feeling' part of man that many attribute specifically to the 'immortal soul that survives death'.

First of all, we must see where the NT writers borrowed this language from. They got it straight from the wise man himself, hence we must go back and understand what was meant by this action.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it
There are two things to consider here:

1) Based on texts from David, Job and Solomon himself, we see that the thinking, breathing, cogitating part of man which we would normally attribute to the 'soul' or 'spirit' perishes at death, hence the 'spirit' cannot be that part

2) When we read the rest of Chapter 12 before and after, we get the impression that this is not talking about merely the 'saved' follower of God but that of ALL men. Hence, we would have to conclude that it is the 'spirit' or 'soul' of ALL men that goes back to God.

When we read the account of Christ on the cross, we see that it says, 'Father into thy hands I commit my spirit, and Jesus gave up the ghost'

Other translations interpret it correctly "and Jesus BREATHED HIS LAST"

If the essense of Jesus truly went to heaven at death, then Christi did not truly conquer death through resurrection as He promised. If His 'essence' went through death unscathed, then He did not truly die the second death for all mankind.

Only by the resurrection power is death conquered (see 1 Corinthians 15:51-55). Christ did this, and so will we (see Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15:13-23)

The Bible makes it clear over and over that Christ conquered death only by His death AND resurrection.

Hence, the 'spirit' that goes back to God is not the essence of man that exists without a body.
 
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Atonement said:
Oscar, please keep post shorter and to the point.

Thank you
mutzrein said:
Oscar Oscar Oscar - would anyone WANT to read that?

I'm sorry but seeing a post of that length and text size turns me off no matter which side of the theological fence you are.
33 spins on the mouse wheel to get past it! We have a new record!!!
 
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Dr. Gonzo

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mutzrein said:
Alright then - so to clarify my position further, the soul is mortal and perishes with rest of the body at (physical) death. The spirit, on the other hand, is what gives man (eternal) life.

And just to stir the pot a little more I don't believe that all of mankind has a spirit. Rather, only those who are born of the Spirit of God have (eternal) life. So, unless one is born of the Spirit, there is no 'afterlife'. As John 3:16 says, they 'perish'.

Yay, predestination!
 
S

SputnikBoy

Guest
mutzrein said:
Alright then - so to clarify my position further, the soul is mortal and perishes with rest of the body at (physical) death. The spirit, on the other hand, is what gives man (eternal) life.

And just to stir the pot a little more I don't believe that all of mankind has a spirit. Rather, only those who are born of the Spirit of God have (eternal) life. So, unless one is born of the Spirit, there is no 'afterlife'. As John 3:16 says, they 'perish'.
But, doesn't this contradict your belief in eternal torment? If those not born of the Spirit 'perish', then how can eternal torment fit into the equasion? Or, have I missed your point?
 
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