Eternal security or conditional security?

[JLB]

Hardly the issue. The issue is to prove that "the fire" means hell in your cherry picked verses.

No scripture - Rejected as opinion.

Where is this found? Rules of the forum. In this verse, the context specifically mentions hell.

No scripture - Rejected as opinion.

How does this support the claim that "the fire" means hell?? There is NO context for hell here. It's just another agricultural metaphor.

No scripture - Rejected as opinion.

OK, so we got a very hot fire. So, where is hell mentioned?

No scripture - Rejected as opinion.

Just another agricultural metaphor. Where is "hell" mentioned in the context?

No scripture - Rejected as opinion.

This statement is just an opinion, with out any supporting evidence of such.

In fact, we know that it cannot be about any saved person being cast into hell, because of what Jesus said:
John 5:24 those who believe HAVE eternal life
John 10:28 those given eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH

There are no verses that outright says anything about losing either salvation or eternal life.

And Paul taught that eternal life is a gift of God.
He also taught that God's gifts are irrevocable.
Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable.

Because he NEVER excluded the gift of eternal life from the gifts that are irrevocable.

Unless there is a verse that hasn't been provided yet to prove that. But I know there is no such verse.

If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himselfwill be saved, yet so as through fire.16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
1 Corinthians 3:14-17

Those who are burned in the fire are not saved.

Burned in the fire = Not saved.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned [not saved]. John 15:6



JLB

 

[chessman]

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:7-8
JLB

Once again you steal from the copy rights of Thomas Nelson Publishing. You did not post their required copyright citation.

Romans 2:21 (NKJV) You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal?​

The answer to Paul's question here is, yes JLB steals. In fact we all steal according to Paul:

Romans 2:1 (NKJV) Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.​

Romans 2:3 (NKJV)And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?​

Do you think you will escape the judgment of God? Certainly not!

Romans 3:4, 10-12, 23-26 (NKJV)

Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar.
As it is written:“That You may be justified in Your words,And may overcome when You are judged.”

As it is written:“There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands;There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside;They have together become unprofitable;There is none who does good, no, not one.”
...
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
​

However, God's grace prevails:

being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. ​

Get it? Savation (redemption from sins wages) is by His Grace, not our sinlessness.

By God's propitiation, not ours. But the point Paul is making, just got through making over and over is that we all sin. You do, everytime you fail to cite copyrighted material properly.

Yet Jesus IS sin's propitiation, even that sin.

Salvation is through His righteousness, not ours or yours or anyone's except Jesus'. You are not practicing righteousness by stealing copyrighted material. Even now and repeatedly over and over. Yet He is righteous and forebearing (forbearance-suspense or delay of punishment) toward you AND me and everyone in Christ.

We be SAVED!

We HAVE a justifier (and it ain't you)!

And yes this applies to the one who has faith in Jesus.
I bolded it, enlarged it and colored it red so you'd be sure to catch the fact that I'm not ignoring it.

BTW, check out what the word translated "faith" here means:

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will(1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

http://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why would OSAS doctrine "throw away" any verse of Scripture?

Why, you ask? Do you suppose because it doesn't agree with the predetermined belief about OSAS?

OSAS could make that exact charge against LOS doctrine.

Actually, OSAS can't make that charge against Loss of Salvation doctrine because non-OSAS affirms that all the passages in the OP are correct and true. It's just that the whole counsel of scripture teaches us that they only apply to the believing. Even the majority OSAS camp believes that (you are aware of that, right?). It's just that their argument is that those who believe and keep believing--and therefore, have eternal--can never stop believing. But since the Bible talks about those who do stop believing it apparently can and does happen (i.e. Galatians 5:4 NASB).

 

[chessman]

But since the Bible talks about those who do stop believing it apparently can and does happen (i.e. Galatians 5:4 NASB).

Since you just 'tagged' the verse, it means anti-OSAS is wrong, right? (That's a joke!)

But, what's no joking matter is the fact that this verse doesn't actually give an example of what you claim it does.

Galatians 5:3-6 (NKJV) And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.​

"Estranged from Christ" and/or "Fallen from grace" here means attempting to be justified by law (such as circumcision, dead works, or for that matter that old cycle of sin/forgiveness through the blood of goats/bulls). It's not in any way meant to be understood as falling back into atheism or the like.

A better case to be gleaned from this passage is that someone that thinks they personally can maintain their own salvation has "fallen from grace" and become "estranged from Christ".

 

[FreeGrace]

So you refuted Paul's words? That's funny.

No, what's funny is your question. I have given Paul's words directly.

Please share what it is you refuted in Paul's statement here?

Humor aside, what was refuted was the notion of LOS because Paul said God's gifts being irrevocable after describing justification and eternal life as gifts of God.

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:7-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

This is an explanation from the Apostle Paul, as to who will receive eternal life.

One should continue reading ALL of what Paul wrote before making these kinds of mistakes.

He wrote in 3:9 and 3:23 that all are sinners and all have fallen short of God's grace. No one earns eternal life.

And my question still stands: if Rom 2:7,8 is achievable, what did Christ die for then? Can your theology answer this question?

 

[FreeGrace]

... but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The worker will be saved, but not burned.

Once again, he will be saved through fire. If you're not sure what "through" means, just ask.

Those who are burned in the fire are not saved.

No, Paul never wrote that. Where would one get the notion that people are burned?? Believers will go through the fire but it's the wood, hay and stubble that will be burned, not the person.

Burned in the fire = Not saved.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned [not saved]. John 15:6

Why all this splicing up of verses? It doesn't help your argument, but in fact, shows the weakness of it.

Again, what's burned in the fire isn't people, but works described as wood, hay and stubble. Paul was quite clear about what gets burned when the believer goes through the fire.

Case Closed.
JLB

More like eyes and ears.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Hardly the issue. The issue is to prove that "the fire" means hell in your cherry picked verses."

No scripture - Rejected as opinion.

Where is the rule about providing Scripture WHEN challenging one to prove something??

No scripture - Rejected as opinion.

Ditto

No scripture - Rejected as opinion.

Ditto.

No scripture - Rejected as opinion.
No scripture - Rejected as opinion.

Ditto, ditto

If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himselfwill be saved, yet so as through fire.16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
1 Corinthians 3:14-17

Those who are burned in the fire are not saved.

Please re-read the passage until it is clear that no one gets burned in the fire.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned [not saved]. John 15:6

More splicing, huh.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Why would OSAS doctrine "throw away" any verse of Scripture?"

Why, you ask? Do you suppose because it doesn't agree with the predetermined belief about OSAS?

I asked because no one in OSAS throws away any verse.

Actually, OSAS can't make that charge against Loss of Salvation doctrine because non-OSAS affirms that all the passages in the OP are correct and true.

What is observable and clear is that LOS has not provided any clear explanation of what all the verses in the OP are teaching, if not ES. Yet, ES doctrine has always provided a clear explanation that is biblically sound on what all the verses used by LOS doctrine.

That is an imbalance.

It's just that the whole counsel of scripture teaches us that they only apply to the believing. Even the majority OSAS camp believes that (you are aware of that, right?).

King Saul was told by Samuel, who was called back from Paradise, that Saul would join him the next day. That example alone refutes LOS doctrine.

But also 1 Thess 5:4-10 refutes LOS doctrine by the phrase "whether we are awake or asleep, we will live with Him".

It's just that their argument is that those who believe and keep believing--and therefore, have eternal--can never stop believing.

But I'm sure you do agree that is not biblical. The Bible tells us of those who apostatize in 1 Tim 4:1 and Jesus Himself told of those who "believe for a while and then fall away".

So obviously believers can cease to believe. The Bible tells us so.

But since the Bible talks about those who do stop believing it apparently can and does happen (i.e. Galatians 5:4 NASB).

Of course. But LOS doctrine has no verses that actually state that one can lose salvation for any reason. That should be of great concern for LOS doctrine.

Having a doctrine without having verses would seem to be a problem, imo.

 

[MarkT]

Huh?

Romans 11:29 (LEB) For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​

Without a doubt, the gifts and calling of God are the subject of Romans 11:29. Something's irrevocable. What? Um, the gifts and calling of God. On this point, I clearly disagree with your statement above. The only real question is what gifts and calling did Paul mean by his statement. But, I do agree that there is no need to repeat and specify in the one verse (v29) the listing of gifts (plural) that he’s been talking about in this letter so far. He’s already told us what he includes as the gifts of God being spread out over several chapters (1, 3, 5, 6 and 12). You really have to following along with Paul. Maybe even take notes and/or outline the various sections of the letter. Or, all one has to do is read through the letter without bias and without chopping it up into little pieces and it’s very clear what Paul means by the gifts and calling of God. And sure, add the promise(s) God made to Israel to that list. I think that's exactly what Paul is doing. But there’s no good reason to exclude the other gifts he just got through mentioning as well. For sure, no good reason has been presented here anyway.

Of course I didn't mean the subject of the sentence when I said the subject is Israel and the covenant. I meant the subject of the discourse which Paul begins around Romans 11:1, wherein we find the passage and the word irrevocable. The question Paul asked was, "Has God rejected his people?" That's the subject of the discourse. (Note. He is no longer talking about sin and death and the gift of eternal life. He discussed that in Romans 5,6 and 7) Paul cites the scripture in Romans 11:26,27 which says, "this will be my covenant with them" So you have to read "For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable" in that context. So Paul is saying the gifts and the call of God cannot be annulled.

Huh? You say it includes Eternal Life then say it not about eternal life. Is there a typo or something going on here? It seems to me you just disagreed with yourself. But maybe I’m misunderstanding or something.

Romans 6:22 (LEB) But now, having been set free from sin and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit leading to sanctification, and its end is eternal life.​

I thought we were supposed to read Romans 6:23 in consideration of Romans 6:22 (just like we are supposed to read Romans 11:29 in consideration of Rom 11:26-28???

Romans 6 is part of Paul's discourse on sin and death which begins around Romans 5:12 and ends around Romans 7:25 Certainly Eternal life is part of the discourse. It's not necessarily the subject of the discourse. Paul discusses a lot of things in his letter to the Romans. The covenant God made with Jacob is one thing.

Okay cool then. Romans 6:23 does immediately precede Romans 11:29. It’s part of the same letter, written by the same author and at the same time and received by the Romans at the same time. And Paul even closes out this letter warning us that there will be people that try to divide and twist the doctrine he presented in this letter.

They are different subjects even though they are discussed in the same letter. Romans 6:23 comes before Romans 11:29 doesn't put Romans 11:29 into the context of Romans 6:23 or vice versa.

The same man wrote the letters to the Corinthians, the Galatians, the Ephesians etc. Did he write one thing (OSAS) to the Romans and something else to the Galatians? I don't think so.

 

[MarkT]

But I have to say this. I don't reject OSAS completely. Jesus said he wouldn't lose any of his sheep. But I don't think OSAS ( I don't mean your doctrine. I mean the words, once saved always saved) applies to all believers. Jesus said in the end there will be false teachers and false prophets, and they will lead many believers astray. And many believers will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another, and if the days of tribulation were not shortened, no human being would be saved. Can you imagine that? How many believers are in the world today, a billion? And not one of them would be saved! But for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. Mt. 24:4-28 Anyways there is the direct connection between falling away and not being saved.

 

[reba]

The regular mods for this thread are exhausted i will close it for a cool down they can reopen if they wish..