It's so simple:

[K2CHRIST]

I'm not sure why I'm not identified as a Christian - is there some box I'm supposed to check? I was born again in 1970, worked with Campus Crusade for Christ, attended Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary, and have been waist-deep in theology for many, many years. So, yeah, I'll match "Christian credentials" with other posters, if that's important to you.

Do I believe my statement, "Pretty soon the category of people ...."?

Yes, I do. The exceptions pretty much reduce the doctrine to "the only way, except when ...," which is quite different from "the only way." It strikes me as slightly bizarre that the hardline "only way" folks are willing to consign all Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims, not to mention Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, to Hell, while carving out exceptions for those who have not reached the fictional age of accountability or are mentally disabled. (True hardliners, of course, permit no exceptions - so at least their theology is consistent, albeit repulsive.)​

Do I consider that Jesus as the only way to salvation to be "hollow" and/or a fabrication?

No, I suspect that the conventional doctrine is probably fundamentally misguided, meaning that we are not fully grasping what Jesus meant. (I am admittedly troubled by how many of the really puzzling and divisive doctrines have their roots in John and Revelation, but I realize that concerns about inerrancy are not permitted at this site.) I will not be surprised at all to meet hordes of people in Heaven whom the hardline "only way" folks would not now recognize as Christians at all. On the other hand, I will not be shocked if the most hardline "only way" folks are entirely correct and even infants are consigned to Hell - nothing requires God to be the sort of God we might like Him to be. On all of these potentially repulsive doctrines, my position is simply that we will eventually see that the end result is worthy of the Creator of the Universe.​

Jesus clearly said that He is the way! But what does that mean?

For me it means a relationship with Him. We talk!

I get up in the morning and say hello to Him and He responds! Everyday He talks to me. I know Him and He knows me. We have conversations, back and forth. So to me, Jesus Christ is the Word of God because I hear from Him.

Could someone that is a Jehovah's Witnesses know Him. Perhaps. But I have come across a problem with that. And the problem is that the Lord has regularly had me talk to Jehovah's Witnesses people and I have not found where a single one of them has know the Lord. In fact that concept of actually hearing from and personally know the Lord Jesus Christ seems to be completely against the basic doctrine. So thought that even have and read a Bible, and their Bible explains that His sheep hear his voice, they don't not believe that.

Of course I have also found many calling themselves Christians that don't know and hear from the Lord either! And I remember that when Jesus Christ took on flesh there were those like Simeon and Anna that hear from the Lord and knew Jesus was the Christ though He was a child, but the religious leaders often did not. And I go to a Christian church were many do hear from the Lord and know exactly what I am talking about when I say I hear from Him daily.

So just a reminder, it was Jesus that said He was the way! You will want to get to know Him personally and talk to Him about it. I have and I am think that many of all nations will be saved, but from what I hear it is not those going after Buddha or any of those other beliefs, and it won't be all those going to Christian churches either. It is going to be those that actually get to know Him and walk by faith in Him, just like the Bible explains!

So if you are saying that perhaps there is someone that is from a nation that is Muslin and has never heard about Jesus Christ, and you think it possible that they might come to know the Lord, I would agree. But if you are saying that the Muslim religion has it right, you are wrong. They are not the way, Jesus Christ is the way. That is what He said, and He still says that to me.

 

[chessman]

Acts 2:17, 21 (LEB) ‘And it will be in the last days,’ God says,‘I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,and your sons and your daughters will prophesy,and your young men will see visions,and your old men will dream dreams.
...
And it will be that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.’ ​

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus clearly said that He is the way! But what does that mean?

For me it means a relationship with Him. We talk!

I get up in the morning and say hello to Him and He responds! Everyday He talks to me. I know Him and He knows me. We have conversations, back and forth. So to me, Jesus Christ is the Word of God because I hear from Him.

Could someone that is a Jehovah's Witnesses know Him. Perhaps. But I have come across a problem with that. And the problem is that the Lord has regularly had me talk to Jehovah's Witnesses people and I have not found where a single one of them has know the Lord. In fact that concept of actually hearing from and personally know the Lord Jesus Christ seems to be completely against the basic doctrine. So thought that even have and read a Bible, and their Bible explains that His sheep hear his voice, they don't not believe that.

Of course I have also found many calling themselves Christians that don't know and hear from the Lord either! And I remember that when Jesus Christ took on flesh there were those like Simeon and Anna that hear from the Lord and knew Jesus was the Christ though He was a child, but the religious leaders often did not. And I go to a Christian church were many do hear from the Lord and know exactly what I am talking about when I say I hear from Him daily.

So just a reminder, it was Jesus that said He was the way! You will want to get to know Him personally and talk to Him about it. I have and I am think that many of all nations will be saved, but from what I hear it is not those going after Buddha or any of those other beliefs, and it won't be all those going to Christian churches either. It is going to be those that actually get to know Him and walk by faith in Him, just like the Bible explains!

So if you are saying that perhaps there is someone that is from a nation that is Muslin and has never heard about Jesus Christ, and you think it possible that they might come to know the Lord, I would agree. But if you are saying that the Muslim religion has it right, you are wrong. They are not the way, Jesus Christ is the way. That is what He said, and He still says that to me.

I hear the Lord daily through the reading of Scripture.

I know that Jesus is the only way to salvation (John 14:6 ESV; Acts 4:12 ESV) because he has spoken this through Scripture.

I note what you stated about Muslims that it might be possible that they know God. But which God? Who is Allah when compared with the Lord God.

As for their view of Jesus Christ, this is what Quran 4:171 affirms:

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs".​

Allah did not have a son and Jesus Christ was only a messenger, not the Son.

Quran 6:101: "To Him [Allah] is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things".

Quran 72:3, "And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son".

Then, the nature of Allah is not identical with that of Jehovah. See ‘Is Allah the God of the Bible?’

Oz

​

 

[K2CHRIST]

I hear the Lord daily through the reading of Scripture.

I know that Jesus is the only way to salvation (John 14:6 ESV; Acts 4:12 ESV) because he has spoken this through Scripture.

I note what you stated about Muslims that it might be possible that they know God. But which God? Who is Allah when compared with the Lord God.

As for their view of Jesus Christ, this is what Quran 4:171 affirms:

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity”: desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs".​

Allah did not have a son and Jesus Christ was only a messenger, not the Son.

Quran 6:101: "To Him [Allah] is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things".

Quran 72:3, "And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son".

Then, the nature of Allah is not identical with that of Jehovah. See ‘Is Allah the God of the Bible?’

Oz

​

We might not be that far off on what we believe, but to make sure let me cover a few things from above.

First: Reading you Bible is not exactly hearing from God! The Lord does tell people to read their Bible. In fact the first words I ever heard Him tell me was, "Read Your Bible', but He is not the bible He told the Jews Jn 5:39 You search the Scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life; it is there that testify about Me, and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

So while I don't exactly know your relationship with the Lord; if you really think that reading your Bible is hearing the Lord and knowing Him you may have that exact same problem the Jews had when Jesus came in the flesh. You should know His small voice and hear Him speaking to you personally. He often tells me where in the Bible He would like me to read. Just so you know.

Second, I did not say Islam was correct, but just the opposite. You might want to read what I wrote. What I did say was that someone in a Muslim country might come to know Jesus Christ. You apparently misunderstood what I wrote. In fact many incredible stories are coming out of Muslim countries today. Stories about Jesus showing up in dreams and vision to them. Jesus is concerned with the people, all people.

Perhaps you need to read this verse:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

[K2CHRIST]

Acts 2:17, 21 (LEB) ‘And it will be in the last days,’ God says,‘I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,and your sons and your daughters will prophesy,and your young men will see visions,and your old men will dream dreams.
...
And it will be that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.’ ​

The message is really that simple. That does not mean I don't think there are more things to know, but ultimate the only things we truly need to know is Jesus Christ. He told Martha that truly only one thing was needed and that was what Mary was doing. Mary was listening to what Jesus had to say to her. And that is the way it is. We need to listen to the Lord, just like the Father said, Mat 17:5... This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!

If we listen to Him, we will do things for Him. So it is not about works, but works happen if we listen. And if we listen to Him we will repent of our ways because His ways are obviously better than ours, but again repentance is not a precondition but a result of listening to Him. And we will read the Bible if we listen to Him, because as He once told me, "What teacher doesn't put in front of His students today, a book?" He is a the Teacher and it is written that they will all be taught of God, so if you read you can expect He the Teacher will ask you to read the Bible. But if you thought reading the Bible is the same thing as listening to the Teacher, you need to rethink. The Teacher said His sheep hear His voice, but of the Scriptures it is written that they kept us shut up under sin until Christ was revealed. (Gal 3:22)

So I do wonder if some people don't actually understand what it means to "call upon the name of the Lord". It means that we can asks the Lord questions and get answer spoken to us via the still small voice.

Ps 102 :2 ... Incline Your ear to me; In the day when I call answer me quickly.

He does that! He answers us when we call.

Ps 91: 15 He will call upon Me, and I will answer him;

Is 30: 21 Your ears will hear a word behind you, "This is the way, walk in it," whenever you turn to the right or to the left.

 

[OzSpen]

We might not be that far off on what we believe, but to make sure let me cover a few things from above.

First: Reading you Bible is not exactly hearing from God! The Lord does tell people to read their Bible. In fact the first words I ever heard Him tell me was, "Read Your Bible', but He is not the bible He told the Jews Jn 5:39 You search the Scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life; it is there that testify about Me, and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

So while I don't exactly know your relationship with the Lord; if you really think that reading your Bible is hearing the Lord and knowing Him you may have that exact same problem the Jews had when Jesus came in the flesh. You should know His small voice and hear Him speaking to you personally. He often tells me where in the Bible He would like me to read. Just so you know....

K2,

It is very dangerous to cherry pick one verse, John 5:39 (NIV). Let's look at the verse in context:

37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You [Jews] have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts.

The Scriptures spoke about the coming Messiah ('they are the very Scriptures that testify about me [Jesus]' but the Jews of Jesus time did not have his word dwelling in them so the Scriptures were useless to them. Because God lives in me, a Christian, by his Spirit, the Scriptures speak to me through teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness (2 Tim 3:17 ESV).

'Thou shalt hear from God by reading thy Bible is not in Scripture'. Neither is, 'Thou shalt believe in the Trinity' nor 'Thou shalt compile a NT'. However, all three of these examples are biblical teachings that are deduced from Scripture.

I have biblical validity for hearing God through the word of God/Christ - Scripture:

• Romans 10:17 (ESV), 'So faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of Christ'.
• John 8:47 (ESV), 'Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God'.
• Luke 11:28 (ESV), 'But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"'
• 2 Tim 3:16-17 (ESV), 'All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work'.

These latter 2 verses are very clear that 'all Scripture is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness'. I don't know of a better way to hear from God about these areas of the Christian life than to read, memorise and study Scripture. 'All Scripture is profitable' for hearing God's voice of teaching, correction and training in righteousness.

In Matt 7:24 (NIV), Jesus said, 'Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock'. How do I hear these words of Jesus? Through Scripture? How can I put them into practice? By acting on what I 'hear' from Jesus by reading Scripture. His words are available to me through Scripture.

Oz

 

[K2CHRIST]

K2,

It is very dangerous to cherry pick one verse, John 5:39 (NIV). Let's look at the verse in context:


The Scriptures spoke about the coming Messiah ('they are the very Scriptures that testify about me [Jesus]' but the Jews of Jesus time did not have his word dwelling in them so the Scriptures were useless to them. Because God lives in me, a Christian, by his Spirit, the Scriptures speak to me through teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness (2 Tim 3:17 ESV).

'Thou shalt hear from God by reading thy Bible is not in Scripture'. Neither is, 'Thou shalt believe in the Trinity' nor 'Thou shalt compile a NT'. However, all three of these examples are biblical teachings that are deduced from Scripture.

I have biblical validity for hearing God through the word of God/Christ - Scripture:

• Romans 10:17 (ESV), 'So faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of Christ'.
• John 8:47 (ESV), 'Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God'.
• Luke 11:28 (ESV), 'But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"'
• 2 Tim 3:16-17 (ESV), 'All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work'.

These latter 2 verses are very clear that 'all Scripture is profitable for teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness'. I don't know of a better way to hear from God about these areas of the Christian life than to read, memorise and study Scripture. 'All Scripture is profitable' for hearing God's voice of teaching, correction and training in righteousness.

In Matt 7:24 (NIV), Jesus said, 'Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock'. How do I hear these words of Jesus? Through Scripture? How can I put them into practice? By acting on what I 'hear' from Jesus by reading Scripture. His words are available to me through Scripture.

Oz

My friend, I didn't cherry pick one verse, but every verse is valid. So the Jews were indeed searching the Scriptures thinking in them they had eternal life, instead of actually seek the Lord Jesus Christ!

And perhaps you missed my finishing up with Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book...

I focused on every nation, because we were discussing whether a Muslim might find the Lord, but did you missed the fact that Jesus is worthy to take the book. We are not worthy to interpret Scriptures! The Lord is. Have you not see that the Bible is not for out interpretation but Gods.

2 Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

So we must actually be hearing the Lord speak to us via His Holy Spirit when we are reading the Bible. You hear from the Spirit of God, right? So then you know that still small voice of the Lord's and what it means to actually get personal instructions from Him, right?

If a person doesn't actually know the Lord and His voice spoken to them, they might misinterpret Scriptures. Let look at the verses provided and see the meaning.

Romans 10:17 (ESV), 'So faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of Christ'.

So does this mean the bible is a word of Christ. The Greek word used there is Rhema, which means an utterance. This is opposed to Logos which has a more general meaning, and is certainly not Graphe which is the Greek word translated Scripture in our Bible. And Jesus at the end of John 5 said, "for if you believed Moses you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. (Jn 5:46)

Now that is interesting. Jesus, who is fully God, said the Scriptures Moses wrote were the writings of Moses!

The Scriptures Moses wrote were certainly inspired by God, but God Himself credits the writing of Moses to Moses. So are we now looking to the writings of Moses to be God talking to us, or are they the writing Moses and Moses trying to tell us to believe in the Lord? According to God it is the latter. Moses wrote what he wrote to get us to seek the Lord Jesus Christ, but if we are thinking the writings of Moses are God talking to us instead of Moses being inspired by God to tell us about the Lord, then are we not like the Jews who searched the Scriptures thinking in them they had eternal life? We had better make sure we are not like them!

So we go to the next verse provided. John 8:47 (ESV), 'Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God'.

Does this mean reading the Bible or hearing from the small voice of the Lord. It doesn't say reading, it ways hearing. So we can't get that wrong can we. We can't think that reading is hearing when it obviously is not, or can we. Remember this was spoken to the Pharisees also (Jn 8:13 So the Pharisees said to Him), and the Pharisees studied the Scriptures intently. They had read the "Word of God" meaning Scriptures, what they had not done is been listening to the small voice of the Spirit of god.

That is why before that Jesus said to them: Jn 8:43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

They could and did read the Scriptures, and the could and did actually hear the sound waves coming out of His mouth then, but they couldn't and did not hear that small still voice of the Lord's. To hear that you have to seek the Lord and what He has to say to you via the Spirit of God. Jesus said Jn 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit (note; they are not ink on paper or sound waves, but spiritual words) and are life.

In case this is still not clear, it is possible to hear the Lord, via the Spirit of God, to talk to you about anything and everything including what verses to read, but also where to go. Remember Abram was instructed to go to a certain land and much more and he did not have the Scriptures then. So do what Abraham did and listen to the Lord. Jesus explained that also.

Jn 8:39 ... If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham.

Abraham did not read the Scriptures, he heard from the Lord our God who tells me the direction I go. This morning I wanted to go some place, but He told me to go to the forum and write. This writing to you is done because He told me to go to the forum this morning and write.

So let's get to the next verse.

Luke 11:28 (ESV), 'But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"'

Does that mean read the Bible and lean on our understanding of it, or does it mean hearing the instructions God has for us and doing what He tells us?

Is 30:9 (NASB) For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen to the instruction of the Lord.
Is 30:21 Your ears will hear a word behind you, "This is the way, walk in it," Whenever you turn to the right or to the left.

We are to walk by faith, and that is a faith that God is with us. And if with us, He can instruct us. And it is written that the word we preach is near us. (Rom 10) and to not say in our hearts that Christ is in some far off place called heaven or hell, but the He is with us. His name is called the Word of God (Rev 19:13) and He said He would never leave us. So we can hear from Him, in our hearts and on our lips.

So let us cover that last verse: 2 Tim 3:16-17 (ESV), 'All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work'.

Absolutely, I hope the correction provided with Scriptures was helpful. God spoke out of His mouth to people in the past like Moses, and we can be sure they heard from the Lord. So it is helpful to read and study the Scriptures (our Bible, Graphe in Greek) But is a person a man of God if they don't know God? Knowing God and knowing the Scriptures are not the same thing. It could be that a man knows God and does not know the Scriptures. Abraham was such a man. And there might be someone today who also does not have access to the Bible, like Abraham, who could come to know the Lord. And it is also possible that a man could know the Scriptures and not know the Lord. Jesus came across them and we see a lot of evidence for that in the Scriptures. That should serve as a warning to us, and especially considering we have the Scriptures.

We are not trying to live by the Scriptures are we? We are trying to live by the promise by faith in Jesus Christ like the Scriptures explain, aren't we?

Gal 3:22 But the Scriptures has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe

There is nothing new under the sun. In the past there were people who studied the Scriptures and did not know the Lord. The Bible goes over the extensively, so they who study the Scriptures have no excuse. God might talk to you while you read your Bible, but the Bible is not God talking to you. The Bible is what God had those that heard from Him in the past write down so that you would turn and listen to Him for yourself. That is what people like Moses, Isaiah, and John were trying to tell you. You too can have a personal relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. He can tell you what clothes to wear, what food to get, and what He want you to do today. And the work of the Father is that all should come to know the Son. I wrote a lot, but our message is simple. Seek the Lord, and you will find Him.

 

[OzSpen]

K2,

You claimed regarding Rom 10:17 (ESV):

So does this mean the bible is a word of Christ. The Greek word used there is Rhema, which means an utterance. This is opposed to Logos which has a more general meaning, and is certainly not Graphe which is the Greek word translated Scripture in our Bible. And Jesus at the end of John 5 said, "for if you believed Moses you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. (Jn 5:46)

The difference between rhema and logos is not as you state. I've attempted to demonstrate this in my article, The Rhema Barb and Its Poison: The Rhema vs. Logos Controversy.

Oz

 

[Sinthesis]

Isn't working for what? I was happy and content in my unbelief. It was later in my life that I began to realize that I was asking myself questions about God and whether or not He truly existed. Eventually I came to the understanding that He in fact is real, however that happened (I believe it was the power of the Holy Spirit). It was after that when I began to feel a desire to turn from my sin.

Isn't working in whatever area will get one to look for something better. You repented of your happy and content ignorance when you started asking yourself questions.

 

[Sinthesis]

That's not what Paul and Silas told the Philippian jailer according to Acts 16:31 (NIV): 'They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household"'.

Oz

The jailer repented of his old life beforehand. He failed and was ready to kill himself because he saw no way forward. Fortunately Paul and Silas could show him the way.

Act 16:27 - And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
Act 16:28 - But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
Act 16:29 - Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
Act 16:30 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?​

 

[smaller]

While I am in sympathy with this view, it is a slippery slope. It begins with the "age of accountability" fiction - there simply has to be an age of accountability, because a God who would condemn infants would be just too un-Godly to stomach. Then we have to carve out exceptions for the seriously mentally ill and deficient - condemning them would be just too un-Godly as well. Then we need some way to deal with those who have never had an opportunity to hear the Gospel - surely, as you suggest, it would be un-Godly of God to condemn them? Pretty soon the category of people whom it would just be too un-Godly of God to condemn becomes Rather Large and makes the doctrine of Jesus being the "only way" sound Rather Hollow. One response is the hard-line view that the "only way" means precisely that, to the extent that we even flush the "age of accountability" fiction and don't even start down the slippery slope. Another, which I hold without claiming to have all the answers, is that there is something fundamentally wrong with the conventional understanding of Jesus being the only way. Nothing requires God to be a God we can stomach, of course, nor is our perspective God's perspective, but I think most people feel intuitively that the hard-line God is an unlikely candidate for the kind, loving and just Creator of the Universe.

We make knowing Jesus a LOT more complicated than Jesus makes it. 1 John 4:7 (NIV)

 

[Sinthesis]

Ok you make a statement: "Repenting happens first", and quote a bunch of verses but I don't see the connection?

For example you quoted Act 19:3 - And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

John's baptism was actually a baptism of repentance, and they had that but had not received the baptism of the Spirit. Why? The repentance didn't get them that. You might say it came first, but there are examples of men getting the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then being baptized is water.

Acts 10:47 Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?

So if you are thinking that because you once read where John baptism came first that it always comes first, you are wrong have just made and assumption. And that is the best I can see from the verses you quoted to support your statement that "Repenting happen first" And what does Act 19:7 - And all the men were about twelve have to do with anything?

So I looked back at your explanation to see if there is something of logic that might prove your point, because the verses you quoted didn't. You wrote " One realizes that what they've been believing isn't working, so repents of that false belief. This leaves them open to a new belief. Hopefully Christianity fills the gap".

We all analyze out actions from time to time and reconsider how we approach things. But is that really repentance? I think not! Repentance is the realization that we are never going to know what is right and wrong, and only God is! So some amount of belief in God's existence and the possibility that we can hear from Him is needed before we truly repent of our ways and turn to God.

Repentance is not like we build some steps and got them wrong to we reconsidered and rebuild the steps. True Christian repentance is the realization that we can't build a stairway to heaven, only God can. So we seek Him and not any of our thinking. Yet to seek Him you must first have some belief that He exists! So the belief, at least at some leave must come first!

Of course you only need extremely small faith to move the mountain. Perhaps only enough faith to say to yourself, 'perhaps God exists' so that you seek Him. And if you do seek Him you will find Him, and finding this incredible God we serve will lead to the realization that you don't know what I right or wrong, only He does. And you will seek Him more and often, thus hearing from Him more which leads to more faith, and even more repentance. Isn't that what you found out?

Yet if a person says they believe in God and don't seek Him, have they even repented? It seems many are doing works in the name of God, but don't really know Him. Saul was an example of that when the Lord spoke to Saul on the road. Where did Saul repent before the Lord spoke to him? Not before, but certainly after!

So I read your statement, but can't figure your logic.

So we each define 'repentance' differently.

 

[OzSpen]

The jailer repented of his old life beforehand.

Where is that stated?

 

[childeye]

So we each define 'repentance' differently.

As I see it, the term repentance as well as all relative terms are defined by one's definition of God. God is Love. So to me, repentance is acknowledging that God is Love, and that Love is ultimately the goodness in mankind that we should live and die to serve.

 

[K2CHRIST]

We make knowing Jesus a LOT more complicated than Jesus makes it. 1 John 4:7 (NIV)

1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

We do make knowing God a lot more complicated that Jesus made it, but the above is not a direct quote from Jesus but from God through John. Which should is good enough and is correct. But there is still a question of what or who is love?

For example my mom knows Jesus and is a loving person and she has a sister who considers herself very loving and is a high priestess in a new age movement. They both might be considered loving and both act lovingly, but one says she knows the Lord Jesus Christ and the other absolutely claims not to know the Lord Jesus Christ, does not want to hear about Jesus, but feels she is spiritual and knows the Spirit of God,

Now the worst I have ever been treated in my life was in a Christian church who proudly proclaimed they were a loving church. I can't go through it all but when I told them the Lord had given me tongue (and He had) they removed me from being considered for membership in their church. They pulled me from working with the children, which the Lord had asked me to do. They had me fix the chairs of the church, which I did, but they walked by me daily and never said so much as a hello. I once told one of their pastor about the time the Lord gave me rain on just me on a hot cloudless day (which He did) and the pastor said, "I can see it now; a squirrel peeing out of a tree." My aunt the high priestess in the New Age movement is so much more loving than they were. Though she knew I believed in Jesus Christ and knew she didn't she never treated me with the discussed they showed.

Most of my life I didn't know the Lord, but I had been taken to Christian churches of the same denomination as the one I mentioned. That was why when the Lord came into my life when I was forty, I went to that Christian church. Yeah, they seemed loving from the outside, but the closer you got the more aware of the problem. They said they knew the Lord and proclaimed their love, and some there actually did, but the leadership had big problems. They didn't have the gifts of the Spirit, they didn't see many miracles, and they could be quite cruel but they didn't see that also.

They had a class about the gifts of the spirit, which I took, as require to take before becoming a member. It had a test which I asked the Lord to help me with. It was a bubble is the A-E which best described how you thought. The Lord told me A, B, E, C and so on. I turned it in an it came back that I was prophetic. The lady running the class then proclaim that there is no such thing and prophesy today.

In another class and lady started to give a testimony that had recently happened in her life. Apparently the Lord appeared to her one night showing up in a bright light. That lady got put down so quickly it amazed me. I could hardly keep from laughing under my breath at the person running the class. Someone goes to tell a wonderful testimony and they are shoot down, and think they are loving.

It is simple to come to know the Lord Jesus Christ. You simply seek Him and you will find Him. He is love, not you. That is something you figure out quickly if you start listening to Him daily. He still does miracles and wonderfully amazing things. From what I have seen, when people start telling you (no matter how they say it) that they are loving and that is how they know they know God, it is a problem!

That does not mean I think the verse from John is wrong, but rather I think many people interpret that verse to mean that they know God because they believe they are loving. That is wrong. If you know God you will doing loving things because you know Him and He tells you to do loving things. Simply put; He who is love gives you instructions based upon His love for others. You hear those instructions and it becomes obvious that He cares for people so much more that you do.

BTW - I am not suggest that "smaller" doesn't know the Lord and is like that one Christian church I once came across. It's just that they (that worst Christian church I have ever seen) loved that verse and couldn't see how they were not what they thought they were. So I felt it important to point out that knowing the Lord means knowing God who is love and it does not mean that your good words based upon your understanding of what love is going to get it done.

So again, getting to know the Lord is simple, but leaning on your understanding of love and good works will just complicate everything!

 

[childeye]

The first lie ever spoken was that God is untrustworthy in character. This lie came in the form of subterfuge upon the innocent and gullible. So upon confessing that Jesus is the Christ, we are acknowledging that God is of a Character of Person, Who would sacrifice Himself for others less than Himself. This makes the believer in Christ, no longer accusable of believing that God is a liar.

 

[K2CHRIST]

I think the first spoken from the snake was, "Did God really say?" It seems to me that it was said to get us to question whether we actually hear from God, but perhaps it was also to get us to question whether God really knows best. Is that a "form of subterfuge upon the innocent and gullible". Perhaps, but that seems a bit complicated.

Satan tries to get us to question whether we can hear from God and whether God can be trusted, because he wants to keep you from listening and trusting the Lord. So confessing Jesus is the Christ is the opposite which is confessing that you hear from Jesus Christ as your Lord and thus are doing things that He tells you. We are doing that, right?

Rm 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead.

So we hear in our heart Jesus Christ speaking to us the words of God, and thus believe that God raised Him from the dead because we hear from Him in our heart. And because we hear and believe it is Him, we do what he says and He thus is our Lord, which we have to confess because we take action on that belief. And we don't listen to that other voice that says, "Did God really say", as if He wasn't speaking to our heart.

And so again it is a simple as seeking the Lord who you will find Him knocking at the door to your heart, and just letting Him in.

 

[OzSpen]

As I see it, the term repentance as well as all relative terms are defined by one's definition of God. God is Love. So to me, repentance is acknowledging that God is Love, and that Love is ultimately the goodness in mankind that we should live and die to serve.

'As I see it' is not the way to do exegesis of a text. The Greek word for repentance is μετάνοια (metanoia) and the repentance is determined by the etymology of
μετάνοια, interpreted in context.

Your idea that God's 'Love is ultimately the goodness in mankind that we should live and die to serve' is an invention of your 'as I see it'. It is not based on the meaning of metanoia.

Oz

 

[smaller]

1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

We do make knowing God a lot more complicated that Jesus made it, but the above is not a direct quote from Jesus but from God through John. Which should is good enough and is correct. But there is still a question of what or who is love?

For example my mom knows Jesus and is a loving person and she has a sister who considers herself very loving and is a high priestess in a new age movement. They both might be considered loving and both act lovingly, but one says she knows the Lord Jesus Christ and the other absolutely claims not to know the Lord Jesus Christ, does not want to hear about Jesus, but feels she is spiritual and knows the Spirit of God,

A lot of people reject Jesus because of His followers. They don't want to be like them. I don't blame them.

God is Love. 1 John 4:8. We all know this. When I witness Jesus as our Savior to anyone I start on that ground. "You" know what love is. Jesus Is Perfect Love. There is no line between Jesus and Perfect Love. They are one and the same. When we seek to be like Him, we also love. His Love is what perfects us, progressively. 1 John 4:12.

Now the worst I have ever been treated in my life was in a Christian church who proudly proclaimed they were a loving church. I can't go through it all but when I told them the Lord had given me tongue (and He had) they removed me from being considered for membership in their church. They pulled me from working with the children, which the Lord had asked me to do. They had me fix the chairs of the church, which I did, but they walked by me daily and never said so much as a hello. I once told one of their pastor about the time the Lord gave me rain on just me on a hot cloudless day (which He did) and the pastor said, "I can see it now; a squirrel peeing out of a tree." My aunt the high priestess in the New Age movement is so much more loving than they were. Though she knew I believed in Jesus Christ and knew she didn't she never treated me with the discussed they showed.

You make the point. I honestly have to say that christians in general are among the most unloving judgmental people I know. I understand how they got that way so I don't hold it against them, BUT...it is trying to suffer them on many counts.

Most of my life I didn't know the Lord, but I had been taken to Christian churches of the same denomination as the one I mentioned. That was why when the Lord came into my life when I was forty, I went to that Christian church. Yeah, they seemed loving from the outside, but the closer you got the more aware of the problem. They said they knew the Lord and proclaimed their love, and some there actually did, but the leadership had big problems. They didn't have the gifts of the Spirit, they didn't see many miracles, and they could be quite cruel but they didn't see that also.

There's all kinds of crazy stuff that happens with "church people." If we understand that we do have a real adversary the reasons for this also become progressively clearer. Believers who think they are immune i.e. hypocrites are the worst. I understand the disdain Jesus expressed to these. But I also know He was not speaking to them, but our spiritual adversary and his influences over their flesh, which tends to blind them to the obvious. As far as I'm concerned they put their pants on the same as everyone else.

We are NO BETTER than anyone else. Romans 3:9 is abundantly clear on this count. Paul said he was the chief of sinners, after salvation, 1 Tim. 1:15. And provided scriptural proof about why this was a fact for himself. FEW believers are able to even hear of these scriptures, yet alone understand them and agree. They buck and hollar all the way.

They had a class about the gifts of the spirit, which I took, as require to take before becoming a member. It had a test which I asked the Lord to help me with. It was a bubble is the A-E which best described how you thought. The Lord told me A, B, E, C and so on. I turned it in an it came back that I was prophetic. The lady running the class then proclaim that there is no such thing and prophesy today.

As far as I'm concerned anyone that witnesses about Jesus is prophetic. Rev. 19:10. As far as fortune telling i.e. telling the future, I always always measure such claims to A. The Word compared to their words and B. Does it turn out or was it hot air. I'd say a lot of such actions is ego pumped hot air filled primarily with either ridiculous non-required over the top optimism or ludicrous inapplicable one sided dire warnings. The later I rather detest in most cases. I do accept that the operations of the Spirit still function in this arena though, and have witnessed truthful prophecy, up front and personal and have had advance notice about many things in my own life, prophetically. But in the charismatic realms there is a huge amout of utter and complete nonsense too. Insert a big grain of salt. Best approach. I'm more apt to heed a dire warning if it's along the lines of my scriptural understandings. These are very valuable.

In another class and lady started to give a testimony that had recently happened in her life. Apparently the Lord appeared to her one night showing up in a bright light. That lady got put down so quickly it amazed me. I could hardly keep from laughing under my breath at the person running the class. Someone goes to tell a wonderful testimony and they are shoot down, and think they are loving.

I try to listen things out. Sometimes it's not easy.

It is simple to come to know the Lord Jesus Christ. You simply seek Him and you will find Him. He is love, not you.

Love comes from God. Remember that. And it's not good to mitigate it whatsoever, period, from anyone.

That is something you figure out quickly if you start listening to Him daily. He still does miracles and wonderfully amazing things. From what I have seen, when people start telling you (no matter how they say it) that they are loving and that is how they know they know God, it is a problem!

I see God in Action just about daily. And I might add on both sides of the ledgers. Not only to the good. Even the divisions we experience in the churches is Divine Action as far as I'm concerned. God does resist and divide the evil present with all of us. This I know to be a fact and a promise of The Word. Gen. 49:7 is still a reality. God's been dividing light from darkness for quite some time. That's what He Does.

That does not mean I think the verse from John is wrong, but rather I think many people interpret that verse to mean that they know God because they believe they are loving.

As far as I'm concerned it's a legitimate introduction to Jesus. That's also how I came to know Him, personally. I literally "felt" His Love ripple through me and change me, right on the spot. You never forget that encounter. It's impossible to forget.

That is wrong. If you know God you will doing loving things because you know Him and He tells you to do loving things. Simply put; He who is love gives you instructions based upon His love for others. You hear those instructions and it becomes obvious that He cares for people so much more that you do.

Absolutely that is TRUE. We do a really poor job even coming close, even at our very best.

BTW - I am not suggest that "smaller" doesn't know the Lord and is like that one Christian church I once came across. It's just that they (that worst Christian church I have ever seen) loved that verse and couldn't see how they were not what they thought they were. So I felt it important to point out that knowing the Lord means knowing God who is love and it does not mean that your good words based upon your understanding of what love is going to get it done.

I'm not easily offended and was not offended by anything you wrote above.

So again, getting to know the Lord is simple, but leaning on your understanding of love and good works will just complicate everything!

I only make introduction. It's not up to me to close the deals. That's not my job. None of us can make anyone believe. Living a good life among our neighbors is also a good witness.

 

[childeye]

'As I see it' is not the way to do exegesis of a text. The Greek word for repentance is μετάνοια (metanoia) and the repentance is determined by the etymology of
μετάνοια, interpreted in context.

Your idea that God's 'Love is ultimately the goodness in mankind that we should live and die to serve' is an invention of your 'as I see it'. It is not based on the meaning of metanoia.

Oz

Perhaps I'd make more sense, if I said it his way: Repentance of sin is relative to God even because sin is relative to God.