brother Paul
Member
Did Christ endure "eternal separation" from the Father (the second death)? I do not believe this is Biblical for a number of reasons though it is what I was taught these things mean.
He did not “endure” the second death of eternal separation from God, or He would still be separated to this day and forever (separation into Sheol was not eternal, but only was designed to last until the judgment)... because eternal never ceases…and this would mean Christ is forever separated from the Father and that is just not supportable.
Now some say Christ did not want to endure the separation our sins would cause Him, I agree that in His flesh He probably would have preferred not to, IF there were any other way. He did definitely take our sins upon Himself and then died, thus the price to pay was paid…He was fulfilling the consequence for all in Him, so that we have died in Him when He died. The soul that sins it must die and we did. Not the soul that sins must endure His outpoured wrath (as punishment) but that they will (as consequence).
I disagree that the cross experience speaks of a “penal” substitution. Certainly there was an exchange, but as God’s redeemer (His ga’al) He became a kinsman whose purpose it was (from before the foundation of the world) to rescue us. God does not smite His redeemers with His eternal wrath.
His death, burial, and resurrection were indeed substitutionary, and both the view I have presented, and penal substitution, have been around for a long time (mine since the beginning of Christendom and the other for about 1000 to 500 years).
A “penal substitution” means He endured a full outpouring of the Father’s wrath allegedly due us…but the Bible speaks of His being forsaken (the Father turned His back on Him)…
Here is an explanation of penal substitution:
John MacArthur (The Murder of Jesus, pp. 219-21): "To [Jesus] was imputed the guilt of their sins, and He was suffering the punishment for those sins on their behalf. And the very essence of that punishment was the outpouring of God's wrath against sinners.
In some mysterious way during those awful hours on the cross, the Father poured out the full measure of His wrath against sin, and the recipient of that wrath was God's own beloved Son. In this lies the true meaning of the cross."
Can such a thing be equated with being forsaken? No! Not the same at all…
Egkataleipō (forsaken) means to leave or abandon (to turn one’s back). To pour out one’s wrath, takes focus and intent upon the object of such wrath (see the seven seals). That is not implied in the Father’s relation to Christ on the cross. On the cross He abandons Him. The children of Bellial have at Him and they kill Him (death is the consequence of sin and He had never sinned so death could not hold Him). His act, and the intent of the Father, was motivated by love, and the experience He experienced on our behalf was OUR consequence NOT our punishment.
The “punishment” motif comes from the judicial interpretation of the politically motivated Roman Catholic church in the early middle ages. Other Christians (at that time) saw the warning “thou shat surely die” as a warning from love not a punishment God would enact. When I told my little children “Do not run out into the busy street for in the day you do you shall surely get hit by a car” do you suppose I was threatening them? As in when or if they did this I would go and get a car and hit them with it? He was trying to warn them foreknowing what was about to take place...this common sense view changes everything.
Brethren please also consider this aspect of the work of Christ on the cross.
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver ( to snatch away, rescue, save) them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world (not for God was so angry at the world) that He gave His only begotten Son…
Romans 5:8 But God shows his love for us (not His wrath) in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Thus Christ’s death was an action of the love for us from God (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit).
Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath (we are children of “orge” – children of anger, and natural disposition, temper, indignation, agitation – this speaks of our character, not God’s anger at us because of a sense of a need to satisfy His justice), just as the others.
4 But God (now we address His attitude toward us), who IS rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us (loved as in past tense – while we were in our sins -notice it says nothing off His vehement hatred or anger at us), 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us (not wrath toward us)in Christ Jesus.
1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us (while we were still in out sin He loved us, and was not filled with wrath toward us).
Yes it is in his unfathomable love and in his pity that he redeemed us. Did we deserve this love? No! We would all become children of orge (disobedience)…we all can be indignant, obstinate, of natural disposition focused on the whims of the flesh, and the will of our own minds. So though He died on behalf of all mankind (making the ransom available for all) not all individuals will be saved because most will reject His gift of grace given to restore, redeem, reconcile (the Lord Jesus who loved us so much He willfully laid down His life).
We have been redeemed (ransomed) because of the riches of His grace, by such a steadfast love (God is love), not because His need for legal justice that was satisfied. Death never “satisfies” God (Ezekiel 18:23). It NEVER makes Him happy even to condemn the wicked.
God wanted Adam and Eve to avoid this consequence just as our parental warning was not a decree or threat of punishment, it was a warning from love of the inevitable consequence.
Christ was a propitiation (to propitiate – to win or regain favor by doing or offering something pleasing). He was the offering of that which disturbed our peace (death). His blood covers our sin and transgression as an acceptable exchange. He redeemed us (ga’al - to redeem, act as kinsman-redeemer not a substitute victim, to avenge and ransomus. He was not was “victimized” in place of us. Thus God in His forebearance “passed over” our sins (Romans 3:25-26), not satisfied His need for vengence.
In the Hebrew as well as the Greek, to be just or justified (as it is translated into English) is NOT about getting justice or having it served in the sense of vengeance, it is about being “made right” (dikaioo). This is something God does for us because He loves us. When the scripture says “the just shall live by faith” the word “just” here means the “righteous”…to be justified means to be righteousized. Such a one is given God’s Righteousness in exchange for their faith. God counts their faith as Righteousness.
The Father did not hate us because we were sinners and thus want to smite us in His wrath, He loved us even in our sin (it grieved Him), and He Himself became man so we could become the sons of God and restore the fellowship. Think of the parable of the prodigal? What does this tell us of the Father? Was he waiting to beat the son? To punish the son? No He was waiting for him to come to a right mind (repent). The father was already ready and willing to embrace him and reconcile with him, and to restore him.
IF Christ suffered a “full outpouring of the wrath” as John MacArthur and others teach, and the wrath that was eternally satisfied, THEN there is no more wrath (it has been satisfied “eternally” in full, otherwise the cross was insufficient)…Think on these things…
He did not “endure” the second death of eternal separation from God, or He would still be separated to this day and forever (separation into Sheol was not eternal, but only was designed to last until the judgment)... because eternal never ceases…and this would mean Christ is forever separated from the Father and that is just not supportable.
Now some say Christ did not want to endure the separation our sins would cause Him, I agree that in His flesh He probably would have preferred not to, IF there were any other way. He did definitely take our sins upon Himself and then died, thus the price to pay was paid…He was fulfilling the consequence for all in Him, so that we have died in Him when He died. The soul that sins it must die and we did. Not the soul that sins must endure His outpoured wrath (as punishment) but that they will (as consequence).
I disagree that the cross experience speaks of a “penal” substitution. Certainly there was an exchange, but as God’s redeemer (His ga’al) He became a kinsman whose purpose it was (from before the foundation of the world) to rescue us. God does not smite His redeemers with His eternal wrath.
His death, burial, and resurrection were indeed substitutionary, and both the view I have presented, and penal substitution, have been around for a long time (mine since the beginning of Christendom and the other for about 1000 to 500 years).
A “penal substitution” means He endured a full outpouring of the Father’s wrath allegedly due us…but the Bible speaks of His being forsaken (the Father turned His back on Him)…
Here is an explanation of penal substitution:
John MacArthur (The Murder of Jesus, pp. 219-21): "To [Jesus] was imputed the guilt of their sins, and He was suffering the punishment for those sins on their behalf. And the very essence of that punishment was the outpouring of God's wrath against sinners.
In some mysterious way during those awful hours on the cross, the Father poured out the full measure of His wrath against sin, and the recipient of that wrath was God's own beloved Son. In this lies the true meaning of the cross."
Can such a thing be equated with being forsaken? No! Not the same at all…
Egkataleipō (forsaken) means to leave or abandon (to turn one’s back). To pour out one’s wrath, takes focus and intent upon the object of such wrath (see the seven seals). That is not implied in the Father’s relation to Christ on the cross. On the cross He abandons Him. The children of Bellial have at Him and they kill Him (death is the consequence of sin and He had never sinned so death could not hold Him). His act, and the intent of the Father, was motivated by love, and the experience He experienced on our behalf was OUR consequence NOT our punishment.
The “punishment” motif comes from the judicial interpretation of the politically motivated Roman Catholic church in the early middle ages. Other Christians (at that time) saw the warning “thou shat surely die” as a warning from love not a punishment God would enact. When I told my little children “Do not run out into the busy street for in the day you do you shall surely get hit by a car” do you suppose I was threatening them? As in when or if they did this I would go and get a car and hit them with it? He was trying to warn them foreknowing what was about to take place...this common sense view changes everything.
Brethren please also consider this aspect of the work of Christ on the cross.
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver ( to snatch away, rescue, save) them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world (not for God was so angry at the world) that He gave His only begotten Son…
Romans 5:8 But God shows his love for us (not His wrath) in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Thus Christ’s death was an action of the love for us from God (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit).
Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath (we are children of “orge” – children of anger, and natural disposition, temper, indignation, agitation – this speaks of our character, not God’s anger at us because of a sense of a need to satisfy His justice), just as the others.
4 But God (now we address His attitude toward us), who IS rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us (loved as in past tense – while we were in our sins -notice it says nothing off His vehement hatred or anger at us), 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us (not wrath toward us)in Christ Jesus.
1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us (while we were still in out sin He loved us, and was not filled with wrath toward us).
Yes it is in his unfathomable love and in his pity that he redeemed us. Did we deserve this love? No! We would all become children of orge (disobedience)…we all can be indignant, obstinate, of natural disposition focused on the whims of the flesh, and the will of our own minds. So though He died on behalf of all mankind (making the ransom available for all) not all individuals will be saved because most will reject His gift of grace given to restore, redeem, reconcile (the Lord Jesus who loved us so much He willfully laid down His life).
We have been redeemed (ransomed) because of the riches of His grace, by such a steadfast love (God is love), not because His need for legal justice that was satisfied. Death never “satisfies” God (Ezekiel 18:23). It NEVER makes Him happy even to condemn the wicked.
God wanted Adam and Eve to avoid this consequence just as our parental warning was not a decree or threat of punishment, it was a warning from love of the inevitable consequence.
Christ was a propitiation (to propitiate – to win or regain favor by doing or offering something pleasing). He was the offering of that which disturbed our peace (death). His blood covers our sin and transgression as an acceptable exchange. He redeemed us (ga’al - to redeem, act as kinsman-redeemer not a substitute victim, to avenge and ransomus. He was not was “victimized” in place of us. Thus God in His forebearance “passed over” our sins (Romans 3:25-26), not satisfied His need for vengence.
In the Hebrew as well as the Greek, to be just or justified (as it is translated into English) is NOT about getting justice or having it served in the sense of vengeance, it is about being “made right” (dikaioo). This is something God does for us because He loves us. When the scripture says “the just shall live by faith” the word “just” here means the “righteous”…to be justified means to be righteousized. Such a one is given God’s Righteousness in exchange for their faith. God counts their faith as Righteousness.
The Father did not hate us because we were sinners and thus want to smite us in His wrath, He loved us even in our sin (it grieved Him), and He Himself became man so we could become the sons of God and restore the fellowship. Think of the parable of the prodigal? What does this tell us of the Father? Was he waiting to beat the son? To punish the son? No He was waiting for him to come to a right mind (repent). The father was already ready and willing to embrace him and reconcile with him, and to restore him.
IF Christ suffered a “full outpouring of the wrath” as John MacArthur and others teach, and the wrath that was eternally satisfied, THEN there is no more wrath (it has been satisfied “eternally” in full, otherwise the cross was insufficient)…Think on these things…
