Rapture at the Last Trump

[lecoop]

Last Trump - Rosh Hashanah....the gates of heaven are open.

Great Trump - Yom Kippur.....the gates of heaven are closed.


Vic.....Vic.....glad to see you citing chumney.....

Hey George, I didn't even see this post when I posted mine right below yours.

I have quoted that page several times in the last couple of years. It's short but sweet and gets the point across with the minimum of words.

I gotta tell ya; when I first found out about these Trumps of God, their relation to the Feasts and the how they relate to the timing of End Times events, it blew me away and sealed my belief in PreWrath.

Just think George, if the harpazio and the actual return of Messiah to Earth are in the same year (gregorian calendar), we are looking at 10 days between the two events. :o I doubt it though. I think the world will be facing at least a year of God's wrath in total.

Why not agree with John for 7 years of wrath: from the sixth seal, to the 7th trumpet: a time span of exactly 7 years. Oh, prewrath IS pre "trib" when you know where John starts the 70th week.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Just an addition here- there is still confusion about what the "Wrath" is and it is important to the Pre-Wrath position. Most everyone agrees that Christians will never see the Wrath of God, but does that mean they are Raptured when wrathful things start happening. Does the Wrath start at the first signs of trouble in the world, at the battle of Armageddon, or sometime later. I believe the Wrath Christians will not see is the "Day of Wrath", which includes a great earthquake, 100 lb hailstones, the destruction of the world's cities, mountains collapsing, islands sinking- you get the picture.

Here is a passage about the Great City being destroyed in one day:

8: Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
9: And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
10: Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

I don't have the time to go into all the differences between the wrathful things that happen after Midweek and the Wrath with a capital W.

I believe the Rapture happens just before the "Day of Wrath", but we will see a little wrath before that.

Orates

If we let John tell us when God's wrath starts, without twisting anything, we would all agree:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The said this, because they just lived through the world's worst earthquake to date, and saw the signs in the sky that told them the day of the Lord was at hand. Some see His wrath starting with this earthqake, and others say that "at hand" means it is just about to start. Either way, no one should doubt that God's wrath is involved with 1/3 of the planet's population being killed at the 6th trumpet and 2nd woe.

There can be no doubt that these signs at the 6th seal are in answer to Joels prophecy:

Joel 2
31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

These signs then, will be pointers to the beginning of the day of the Lord, and the 70th week.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Now that I am on the same page, could you summerize why you do not believe the Trumps are the same?

Sure... off the top of my head.


We believe the harpazio happens before the angelic trumpets begin, just at or just before the 144,000 are sealed. Notice it is right after annoucement in Revelation 6:17. I can deal with your "day before" theory. It works for me.

The 'great mutitude' are the ones from 1 Thess 4:16-17.

As I quoted from a commentary on the Feasts, the three Trumps of God are just that; trumps of God. Remember in 1 Thess 4:16, it says "...and with the trump of God:..."

On the other hand, the seven trumps of Revelation are angelic trumps, trumpets blown by angels. The trumps of God are blown by the LORD Himself.

In 1 Corinthians 15:52, it says, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Now look at this:

[quote:17647]This day, the first day of Tishri, which was the start of the Jewish civil year, was known as Rosh haShanah (the Feast of Trumpets or the Day of Trumpets). "The last month in the seven months' series was always sounded on this New Moon Day. This made it the final trumpets' day."...

... It is stated that early Jews recognized the Day of Trumpets as a type of memorial day. More than our modern versions of the holiday, it was instead a day that was symbolic of the time "when the dead return to rejoin their descendants at the beginning of the year." Martin also quotes Gaster in saying that this was "the time that became a symbol of the Last Trump."

We also rely on the promise in 1 Thessalonians 5:9

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Like I said above, we believe the trumps and vials (bowls) are The Wrath of God (Day of the Lord). I add, "with the worse of the wrath occurring during the bowls."

We also believe the bowls "spill" (pun intended) over into part of the additional 30 day of Daniel 12. ( I know, off topic... I couldn't resist the pun - 8-) )[/quote:17647]

HEY! I agree with most of this post! Great job! However, if we read what happens at the 7th vial, it says "it is finished!" This is the official end of the 70th week! It starts with the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial. [The exact midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet.] However, it is not the end of the day of the Lord!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

This chart best represents what I believe. The line marked "cut short" is only an estimate, since we aren't to know day and hour.

http://www.lookup.org/timeline.htm

I disagree with vic's timeline, as he starts the week at the first seal: about 2000 years off.

If someone wants to see an excel spreadsheet of my timeline, I can email it.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

HEY! I agree with most of this post! Great job! However, if we read what happens at the 7th vial, it says "it is finished!" This is the official end of the 70th week! It starts with the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial. [The exact midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet.] However, it is not the end of the day of the Lord!

LOL, thanks, I think. "It is done" means the last of God's Wrath is poured out in the seventh bowl. The seventh trumpet is where I see the end of the final week.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I see you found my explanation of the "Last Trump of God". You should really consider it. It is key to the timing of the harpazio.

It's ok if you disagree with the timeline. I'm not offended. The reason we put the seals in the week is because the week actually starts off as a time of peace and safety. Kind of hard for anyone to confirm a treaty or covenant involving peace that is broken after three and 1/2 years if there is all the calamities of the Trumpets going on. Antichrst would never have the power to stop them nor delay them for three and 1/2 years.

 

[lecoop]

HEY! I agree with most of this post! Great job! However, if we read what happens at the 7th vial, it says "it is finished!" This is the official end of the 70th week! It starts with the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial. [The exact midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet.] However, it is not the end of the day of the Lord!

LOL, thanks, I think. "It is done" means the last of God's Wrath is poured out in the seventh bowl. The seventh trumpet is where I see the end of the final week.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I believe this "mystery" is the mystery of Paul, "Christ in us, the hope of glory" in the Gentiles. I believe this verse seven is saying that at the 7th trump, the "church age" will be finished. Not to mention, what events do we see around this 7th trump? We see midpoint events! For example, the five mentions of the 3 1/2 year time frame, showing events starting at the midpoint and going to the end of the week. For example, the remnant fleeing into the wilderness, to be fed and protected for 1260 days. What are then fleeing? Of course, they are fleeing the abomination! When does this abomination take place? Of course we know that Daniel said, in the midst or middle of the week. So there are about five good proofs that the 7th trumpet is the midpoint, not the end.

I see you found my explanation of the "Last Trump of God". You should really consider it. It is key to the timing of the harpazio.

I consider and I agree, I think!

It's ok if you disagree with the timeline. I'm not offended. The reason we put the seals in the week is because the week actually starts off as a time of peace and safety. Kind of hard for anyone to confirm a treaty or covenant involving peace that is broken after three and 1/2 years if there is all the calamities of the Trumpets going on. Antichrst would never have the power to stop them nor delay them for three and 1/2 years.

What would be against this time of peace and safety and the signing of the covenant takeing place at the 7th seal? This would take place before any of the trumpets take place. How long will his peace last? Is this time of peace just for Israel? Could the beast be waring elsewhere in the world, in your mind, at the time of this signing, or near it? Daniel 11 seems to show other events taking place concerning the beast, such as 11:44.

Last, there is good proof, of which I hope we can get into, that the first seals are actually in our past, and could not possibly be yet future.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

I consider and I agree, I think!

LOL, yeah, it is a departure from accepted Christian thinking, but Knowledge IS increasing. heh

What would be against this time of peace and safety and the signing of the covenant takeing place at the 7th seal?

This, the very first seal:

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The False Messiah or AntiChrist... the one who is behind the "false" seven year covenant.

Last, there is good proof, of which I hope we can get into, that the first seals are actually in our past, and could not possibly be yet future.

Coop

Cool, that would be interesting. I've heard about this theory before.

 

[lecoop]

I consider and I agree, I think!

LOL, yeah, it is a departure from accepted Christian thinking, but Knowledge IS increasing. heh

[quote:00105]What would be against this time of peace and safety and the signing of the covenant takeing place at the 7th seal?

This, the very first seal:

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The False Messiah or AntiChrist... the one who is behind the "false" seven year covenant.

Last, there is good proof, of which I hope we can get into, that the first seals are actually in our past, and could not possibly be yet future.

Coop

Cool, that would be interesting. I've heard about this theory before.[/quote:00105]

I don't think it is a "theory!" After the HS pointed me to search for the midpoint, and the pointers for the start and finish of the week, He pointed out some things in chapters 4-6.

I know that many today say the white horse is the antichrist. However, the vision shown to John gives not one clue, not one word, that would even hint of that, and what John wrote to us gives no hint either. People want to find what God did not show us, so they grasp at straws, so to speak, and pick something shown as righteous (white) and declare it as evil. Declaring it will never make it so. John used the color white many other times in Revelation, as shown to him in the visions, and every other time it represents righteousness. It would be and is very poor exegesis to make this white into evil. It is just not warrented in the verse, or in the context.

Let's discuss these horses in depth in the future, and I am convinced that you will see things you have not seen before.

Last, if the 70th week starts at the 7th seal, and I know it does, then this is far too early in the visions to bring up the antichrist. God gives us hints as to the timing of these seals.

Coop

 

[kathydixon]

ALERT—ALERT-ALERT​

Trump is trying to start a war in the Middle East because he believes he cannot be removed while at WAR

This is the sad truth, even if his actions gets many American’s killed it is worth it; so Trump believes

 

[Prycejosh1987]

Will you recant your belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture now, or wait till after the Final Treaty is signed, when Pre-Trib becomes a moot point?

I believe Jesus will come twice, once he will come secretly and the second time he will come visibly to all. I think he comes 3 times, first time in the name of the father, 2nd time secretly in the name of the Son, and 3rd time visibly in the name of the Holy Spirit.