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Redirectionalism

JLB

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Where does it say that?
Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 "These things which you see--the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." Luke 21:5-6

Where was Jesus when He spoke these words?


JLB
 

Deborah13

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I am saying Matthew and Mark are the Olivet Discourse, While Luke was His teaching given in the Temple area.

JLB
I can see why you say this.
We read in Luke that after Luke recounts this teaching on the destruction of the temple, he says that Jesus was still preaching in the temple during the day. While in Matthew 24, He has left the temple for the last time. I think that is the way it reads.
I don't know that this is so, that it was two separate occurrences but it could have been. I don't know why the apostles would have asked Him the same question again but they could have.
 

Dan00

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Dan00
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The cause:
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matthew 23:13 is what I see as their offenses were in a nutshell. They killed the prophets that told of this day when the Messiah would come. They would see Christ crucified, kill all those they could Stephen, etc., they burdened their people with rules that God never intended. In all ways keeping their people from entering in. Liars, snakes. vipers.
True. Further, the temple was already defiled with the moneychangers.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

I am not sure what this abomination was it reads a little differently from Luke and watching for the armies.
The word abomination is of something detestable, especially idolatry. The word in the Greek translated as "stand" does not necessarily mean stand in the context we would say " we saw him stand up". http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G2476&t=KJV

But I do know that nothing pagan armies could do, could defile God's house or God's people unless they willingly in their hearts allowed it.
I agree. I did believe it was possible that the presence of the foreign army could defile the city; and I most likely stated so on the forum in the past. But today when I read what you and JLB wrote regarding temple defilement, my eyes opened.

I recalled how horrible the situation was because of the civil war inside of Jerusalem (before the Army returned.) So I searched "The Wars of the Jews" and found the statement about the abominations that were occurring in the "sacred places" of the temple. It was then that I understood that Jesus' rendering of the event in Luke, was preliminary to the actual "abomination of desolation" that occurred in the sacred areas, which occurred after the army left, and before it returned to destroy.


Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

If we didn't know that Jesus was speaking here of the temple, we would think He was speaking of their own home or dwelling. He didn't say God's house will be left to you desolate. So I wonder if even at that point, if the temple was still God's dwelling place, at all? I don't know. But surely when the veil was torn in two, that was the end.

We also know that the destruction of the city and the temple was already determined (decreed).
I really do not know what Jesus meant in Matthew 23:38. If it was no longer God's house, then why use the term "abomination of desolation;" except maybe as a sign for his people in Jerusalem to the flee to the mountains. The Jews still believed it was God's house

Dan
 

Dan00

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Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 "These things which you see--the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." Luke 21:5-6

Where was Jesus when He spoke these words?

JLB
Luke doesn't say.
 

Dan00

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I can see why you say this.
We read in Luke that after Luke recounts this teaching on the destruction of the temple, he says that Jesus was still preaching in the temple during the day. While in Matthew 24, He has left the temple for the last time. I think that is the way it reads.
I don't know that this is so, that it was two separate occurrences but it could have been. I don't know why the apostles would have asked Him the same question again but they could have.
It does not say Jesus was still in the temple, nor does any subsequent verse.

Dan
 

JLB

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It does not say Jesus was still in the temple, nor does any subsequent verse.

Dan

1 And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, 2 and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. 3 So He said, "Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; 4 for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had." 5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 "These things which you see--the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." Luke 21:1-6

You just choose not to see the truth.


JLB
 

Sinthesis

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Through Luke 21:1-6 they are leaving the temple, passing by the treasury and contemplating the value of gifts, the most ostentatious of which where displayed on the temple itself. By Luke 21:7 they are on the mount of olives, the disciples still puzzled over the blockbuster revelation of Luke 21:6 and wanting clarification.
 

JLB

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Through Luke 21:1-6 they are leaving the temple, passing by the treasury and contemplating the value of gifts, the most ostentatious of which where displayed on the temple itself. By Luke 21:7 they are on the mount of olives, the disciples still puzzled over the blockbuster revelation of Luke 21:6 and wanting clarification.

No sir!

37 And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet. Luke 21:37


Matthew and Mark make a clear statement in this matter -

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Matthew 24:3


3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, Mark 13:3

Of course words of truth like these, would make no difference to those that would add phrases to the bible such as -

"Old Covenant age", or "Jewish age".

Phrases that seemingly validate the position of Preterism, but don't stand up to the test of the word of truth.

Luke 21 records Jesus teaching in the Temple area.


JLB
 

reba

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So a person in the front yard could not talk about the back yard? A person at a shopping mall could not be talking about another shopping mall? Temple Mount and the mount of Olives are only about 500 yards from each other ( that does depend on where one measures) The event is what Jesus' topic was not where He may have been standing
 

JLB

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So a person in the front yard could not talk about the back yard? A person at a shopping mall could not be talking about another shopping mall? Temple Mount and the mount of Olives are only about 500 yards from each other ( that does depend on where one measures) The event is what Jesus' topic was not where He may have been standing

Reba, are you finding fault with these words -

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately...

These words are there to make a clear distinction!

And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.

What Jesus taught His Disciples privately should be important to us.

It was to Him.


JLB
 

Dan00

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5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 "These things which you see--the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." Luke 21:5-6
Where does it say they are in the temple when they spoke the highlighted words?

Dan
 

Deborah13

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Reba, are you finding fault with these words -

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately...

These words are there to make a clear distinction!

And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.

What Jesus taught His Disciples privately should be important to us.

It was to Him.


JLB
JLB, it's a very long stretch to even think that Jesus was talking about two separate events. It's also a stretch to say He was openly teaching in the temple about this event.
We let scripture interpret scripture right? Usually scripture has a witness of at least one other scripture, if not two.
I think this would be grasping at straws. I think we need to see that Matt. and Mark are talking about the same future event that Luke is. Correct?

We have three different writers with different writing styles. Maybe Luke didn't find it was so important to be specific about where they were exactly when He first began to speak on this subject, but was concentrating on the content of the teaching.
 

JLB

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JLB, it's a very long stretch to even think that Jesus was talking about two separate events. It's also a stretch to say He was openly teaching in the temple about this event.
We let scripture interpret scripture right? Usually scripture has a witness of at least one other scripture, if not two.
I think this would be grasping at straws. I think we need to see that Matt. and Mark are talking about the same future event that Luke is. Correct?

We have three different writers with different writing styles. Maybe Luke didn't find it was so important to be specific about where they were exactly when He first began to speak on this subject, but was concentrating on the content of the teaching.

I'll tell you what is a stretch, Deb.

To insinuate that Jesus was on the mount of Olives, speaking privately with His disciples, in these verses -

1 And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, 2 and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. 3 So He said, "Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; 4 for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had." 5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, Luke 21:1-5

If that is the conclusion you come up with from the words,

... He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury
... and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites
...as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations,

Be honest Deb, do you think Jesus was with His Disciples on the Mt of Olives during these verses?

If Jesus was on top of the Mt of Olives and He looked up, He would see clouds.


JLB
 

Deborah13

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I'll tell you what is a stretch, Deb.

To insinuate that Jesus was on the mount of Olives, speaking privately with His disciples, in these verses -

1 And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, 2 and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. 3 So He said, "Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; 4 for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had." 5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, Luke 21:1-5

If that is the conclusion you come up with from the words,

... He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury
... and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites
...as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations,

Be honest Deb, do you think Jesus was with His Disciples on the Mt of Olives during these verses?

If Jesus was on top of the Mt of Olives and He looked up, He would see clouds.

JLB
Luk 20:45 Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples,
Luk 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes,

Luk 21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

Through and including Luke 21:4, we know He was not speaking to the disciples out of the hearing of others. But when He begins to speak about the things to come it soon becomes clear that He is talking to His disciples and it does seem to be directed only to them.

Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom,
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. ETC........
 

JLB

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Luk 20:45 Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples,
Luk 20:46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes,

Luk 21:1 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

Through and including Luke 21:4, we know He was not speaking to the disciples out of the hearing of others. But when He begins to speak about the things to come it soon becomes clear that He is talking to His disciples and it does seem to be directed only to them.

Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom,
which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. ETC........

Based on this verse -

45 Then, in the hearing of all the people, He said to His disciples,

Through this verse -

And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.

As well as the opening verses of Luke 21, especially without the phrase that we see in Matthew and Mark which says, as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, it is clear Jesus was in the Temple area and speaking in the hearing of the people as well as His disciples in Luke 21.

Witness #1 - Then, in the hearing of all the people, He said to His disciples,

Witness #2 - Then opening verses of Luke 21 - 1 And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, 2 and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. 3 So He said, "Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; 4 for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had." 5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 "These things which you see--the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."

Witness #3 - And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.


JLB
 

Deborah13

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Based on this verse -

45 Then, in the hearing of all the people, He said to His disciples,

Through this verse -

And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.

As well as the opening verses of Luke 21, especially without the phrase that we see in Matthew and Mark which says, as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, it is clear Jesus was in the Temple area and speaking in the hearing of the people as well as His disciples in Luke 21.

Witness #1 - Then, in the hearing of all the people, He said to His disciples,

Witness #2 - Then opening verses of Luke 21 - 1 And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, 2 and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites. 3 So He said, "Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; 4 for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had." 5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 "These things which you see--the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."

Witness #3 - And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.


JLB
What about where I point out that it is clear that He is speaking only to the disciples?

And is He speaking about the same event as He is in Matt. and Mark?
 

JLB

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What about where I point out that it is clear that He is speaking only to the disciples?

And is He speaking about the same event as He is in Matt. and Mark?
He is speaking to the Disciples in the hearing of the people.

The event that Jesus is referring to in the Olivet Discourse is found in Zechariah 12.

1 The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: 2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem...then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1-2,10

Compare to Matthew 24:30 -

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



JLB
 

Dan00

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JLB, it's a very long stretch to even think that Jesus was talking about two separate events.
If Jesus was talking about two separate events, this is the way it would have to happen:

From Luke:

"And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had." (Luke 21:2-4)

Then, while INSIDE the temple, he said this:

" . . . the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Luke 21:6)

From Mark:

"And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living." (Mark 12:42:43)

Then, while OUTSIDE the temple, he said this:

". . .Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Mark 13:2)

Scofield is the one who popularized the "Dueling Olivet Discourses" Theory. What else could we expect from him? LOL!

Dan
 

Dan00

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He is speaking to the Disciples in the hearing of the people.
The event that Jesus is referring to in the Olivet Discourse is found in Zechariah 12.

1 The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: 2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem...then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1-2,10

JLB
That is incorrect. Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled when Jesus was hanging on the cross, as is plainly written:

"For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced." John 19:36-37)

Scofield is the one who popularized the "Those At The Cross Were NOT The Ones Looking On Jesus Who They Had Just Pierced With A Spear" Theory. What else could we expect from him? LOL!

Scofield was a master redirectionalist, in that he was able to spiritualize the scripture in every significant way, and at the same time make others believe everyone but him was spiritualizing the scripture. After all, he was a convicted felon and spent time in prison for forgery. He could con a con-man.

Dan
 
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Deborah13

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He is speaking to the Disciples in the hearing of the people.
We cannot know that JLB, we know He spoke against the scribes in the hearing of others, but only that.

The event that Jesus is referring to in the Olivet Discourse is found in Zechariah 12.

1 The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: 2 "Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem...then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1-2,10

Compare to Matthew 24:30 -

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


JLB
 

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