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Temporal Salvation?

netchaplain

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The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?
 
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Eternal life is a promise, an earnest to the Christian 1 John 2:15; Eph 1:13. This life is only found 'in Christ" 1 John 5:11-12. The Christian does not possess eternal life itself in this life. As long as the Christian remains in Christ he continues to have the promise of eternal life. If the Christian, due to unfaithfulness, falls from Christ (John 15:5-6) then he loses the promise of eternal life. Even though he loses the PROMISE of eternal life, eternal life remains eternal. Eternal life remains eternal, one just lost the promised possession of it.

Can it be argued from the other side? That is, God has said He will eternally punish unbelievers, hence the unbeliever is facing the sentence of eternal condemnation being outside of Christ. If the unbeliever hears the gospel, obeys it he now is no longer facing eternal condemnation. Would that mean condemnation is less than eternal? Or are the lost faced with the permanency of being lost eternally, never can be saved?

How is it one can go from being eternally lost to being eternally saved but condemnation remains eternal? But if one goes from losing the promise of eternal life to being lost then that somehow makes eternal life less than eternal?

To rephrase the question you asked above: Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally lost and then not eternally lost? If this is true then why cannot one can have the promise of eternal life and then not have the promise of eternal life.

Salvation and condemnation are both conditional upon what man does.
 
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JLB

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The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9).
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Eternal salvation is conditional upon obeying Him.





JLB
 

netchaplain

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Eternal life is a promise, an earnest to the Christian 1 John 2:15; Eph 1:13. This life is only found 'in Christ" 1 John 5:11-12. The Christian does not possess eternal life itself in this life. As long as the Christian remains in Christ he continues to have the promise of eternal life. If the Christian, due to unfaithfulness, falls from Christ (John 15:5-6) then he loses the promise of eternal life. Even though he loses the PROMISE of eternal life, eternal life remains eternal. Eternal life remains eternal, one just lost the promised possession of it.
Hi and like your comments because they are pretty probing! It's my understanding that the gift of eternal life is either received or ejected, but never lost. Scripture unquestionably teaches that there are those who can know they presently possess eternal life (Jhn 5:24;
1Jo 5:13), which is the sense of presently being spiritually "quickened" (Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13). The "quickening" and "eternal life" are not seen in the past tense when applied. Of course God knows who will choose to believe and those who will remain in unbelief (Jhn 3:18).

Thanks for your input and God bless!

 

netchaplain

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And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

Eternal salvation is conditional upon obeying Him.
To me, this passages and the others like it doesn't give the sense of obedience being the means of salvation but the evidence of possessing it (Luk 6:44; Mat 12:33). As Scripture testifies, salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, and obedience will be seen in only those who truly possess faith.

Appreciate your comments!
 
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Hi and like your comments because they are pretty probing! It's my understanding that the gift of eternal life is either received or ejected, but never lost. Scripture unquestionably teaches that there are those who can know they presently possess eternal life (Jhn 5:24; 1Jo 5:13), which is the sense of presently being spiritually "quickened" (Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13). The "quickening" and "eternal life" are not seen in the past tense when applied. Of course God knows who will choose to believe and those who will remain in unbelief (Jhn 3:18).

Thanks for your input and God bless!
There are verses that speak of eternal life as a present possession but other verses speak of it as as a promise (1 John 2:25)--(a promise being something not yet realized). Other verses speak of eternal life in the world to come (Luke 18:30). How can a corruptible, mortal being in this life (1 Cor 15:53-54) possess eternal life? Must he first put off the corruptible and mortal part and put on immortality and incorruption before he can possess something as eternal life?

I see the reason eternal life is spoken of in the present in some verses is based upon the certainty of God's promises. God cannot lie therefore it is a certainty those that are faithful Christians will have eternal life therefore it is spoken as if it is a present possession.

Joshua 6:2 God said He had given them Jericho even though they did not yet possess it but were still encamped outside the walls. If they did as God said it would be a certainty they would possess the city so it is spoken of as a present possession.

Gen 17:5 God told Abraham "a father of many nations have I made thee" yet Isaac through whom this promise would take place was not yet even born. Again based on the certainty of God's promises. Paul quotes Gen 17:5 in Rom 4:17 "(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

God "calls those things that be not as though they were". Those that remain faithful Christians, though they do not presently possess eternal life are said to presently have eternal life based upon certainty of God's promises.

Hence the Christian can become unfaithful and lose the promise of eternal life but eternal life itself does remain eternal.
 
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netchaplain

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There are verses that speak of eternal life as a present possession but other verses speak of it as as a promise (1 John 2:25)--(a promise being something not yet realized).
I believe in present promises given, e.g. Spirit, which is eternal (Gal 3:14; sealed after believing Eph 1:13); and future promises given, e.g. Heaven and all within it.

Hence the Christian can become unfaithful and lose the promise of eternal life but eternal life itself does remain eternal.
If one who professes Christianity eventually manifests unfaithfulness, it was a false profession, because God keeps those reborn from becoming unfaithful (Phl 2:13). The warnings of being unfaithful are evidences of not being reborn, so all can know.
 
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I believe in present promises given, e.g. Spirit, which is eternal (Gal 3:14; sealed after believing Eph 1:13); and future promises given, e.g. Heaven and all within it.
I do not believe that individuals are unconditionally sealed. It is the group Christian that is sealed and as long as one remains in that group one remains sealed. If one becomes unfaithful and falls from the group, the group is still sealed just not the one that falls from the group. The church at Ephesus was in danger of falling away no longer being sealed, Revelation 2:1-5.

netchaplain said:
If one who professes Christianity eventually manifests unfaithfulness, it was a false profession, because God keeps those reborn from becoming unfaithful (Phl 2:13). The warnings of being unfaithful are evidences of not being reborn, so all can know.
Many warnings, heedings, admonishments about falling away. Heb 3:12; Heb 4:11 for one to fall into unbelief and depart from God implies one must have first in belief and was of God.

Phil 1:12 they were told to "work out your own salvation"

Those that are obedient in working out their salvation are the one's whom God works in per v13. If God says for a person to do A,B and C and a person obediently does A,B and C the it is obvious God is working in that person. But if a person is disobediently doing X,Y and Z then it can been seen God is not working in that person.

Men using their free will work out their own salvation by obeying God meaning the work God is doing in v13 is not miraculous nor apart from man's obedience to God's word. Hence God is working in the obedient by influence of His word. And God continues to work in the faithful as long as God's word dwells in them Jn 15:7; Matt 13:23.

Question: If a person quit smoking, does his quitting prove he never really smoked to begin with?
 

netchaplain

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[QUOTE="Ernest T. Bass, post: 1572698, member: 2622"]
I do not believe that individuals are unconditionally sealed. [/QUOTE]
I choose to believe everything given us "that pertain to life and godliness" can only be met upon the Father's condition in
the Lord Jesus. Man's sole condition (we cannot meet any condition as to effect salvation but receive it) is to enter into it all upon faith in Him and God will cause us to "grow up into Him in all things" (Eph 4:15), which of course can only done in this life.

I see no conditions here, and notice no future tense concerning application, only past and present:

2Co 1:22 “Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.” (has sealed)

Eph 1:13 “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in “whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.” (were sealed)

Eph 4:30 “And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” (are sealed)

We can go over any scriptures that may appear to refute this, and there are many, if you wish, and is I think why so many differences of understanding exists between believers concerning it.


God's blessings to your Family my Friend in Christ!
 
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I choose to believe everything given us "that pertain to life and godliness" can only be met upon the Father's condition in
the Lord Jesus. Man's sole condition (we cannot meet any condition as to effect salvation but receive it) is to enter into it all upon faith in Him and God will cause us to "grow up into Him in all things" (Eph 4:15), which of course can only done in this life.
Being in Christ (a Christian) is a necessary condition to becoming and remaining sealed. I know of no NT examples of anyone being UNconditionally sealed outside of Christ (non-Christian).

netchaplain said:
I see no conditions here, and notice no future tense concerning application, only past and present:

2Co 1:22 “Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.” (has sealed)

Eph 1:13 “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in “whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.” (were sealed)

Eph 4:30 “And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.” (are sealed)

We can go over any scriptures that may appear to refute this, and there are many, if you wish, and is I think why so many differences of understanding exists between believers concerning it.


God's blessings to your Family my Friend in Christ!
Paul is writing those epistles to those who are already in Christ, already Christians so naturally he would say they are 'sealed'.

1 Cor 1 21-22 "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Eph 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

Eph 1:13 shows one must CONDITIONALLY be in Christ to be sealed, it also shows one must first CONDITIONALLY believe to be sealed. As long as one conditionally remains a believer in Christ he will remain sealed. Many NT verses attest to the fact that one's belief must be ongoing, sustained.

Eph 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."
Again as long as they CONDITIONALLY remains believers in Christ they shall be sealed.

I am not sure of the timeline between when the Ephesian epistle was written and Revelation chapter 2 but the church at Ephesus that "are sealed" in Eph 4:30 if they did not repent they would no longer be in Christ therefore no longer sealed.

They would "grieve" the Holy Spirit. Will it be argued one can grieve the Holy Spirit and still be sealed/saved? One can leave his first love, be fallen and impenitent (Rev 2:4-5) yet sealed/saved anyway?

Lastly, this 'sealing' does not take away one's free will. One by his own volition choose to believe and heed the written word of the Holy Spirit and thereby be 'sealed'. Yet by that same volition one can choose to quit believing, disregard the Spirit's word (grieve the Spirit) and no longer be sealed in Christ.

Different ways one can grieve the Holy Spirit and not longer be sealed:
They may lust against him (Galatians 5:16).

They may resist him (Acts 7:51).

They may lie to him (Acts 5:3).

They may try him (Acts 5:9).

They may insult him (do despite unto) (Hebrews 10:24).

They may blaspheme against him (Mark 3:29).

They may "quench" him (1 Thessalonians 5:19)
"Coffman Commentaries"


Earlier I asked: If a person quit smoking, does his quitting prove he never really smoked to begin with?

If one quits doing something that logically implied he must have actually done it in order to quit. One cannot quit what he has never started, never done. Therefore if one quit believing that implies he must have believed for one cannot quit what he has not done. If one had a 'fake' belief then he never really believed therefore he cannot quit believing because he never did believe to begin with.
 
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netchaplain

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If one quits doing something that logically implied he must have actually done it in order to quit. One cannot quit what he has never started, never done. Therefore if one quit believing that implies he must have believed for one cannot quit what he has not done. If one had a 'fake' belief then he never really believed therefore he cannot quit believing because he never did believe to begin with.
There are two groups of people professing Christianity. Those who genuinely profess the faith by unceasingly manifesting it by their continued lifestyle of godliness; and those who falsely profess faith in Christianity (Jas 2:18) who cease from appearing to lives godly. Thus what the latter departs from is not faith, but from the doctrine of faith, which they never truly entered into.

I agree that everything that results in life in contingent on conditions. My point is that man cannot perform any condition to produce salvation, only manifest receiving it. Thus as already stated, man's only condition is choosing to receive it; and the lifestyle will demonstrate if it is genuine or not. It's not a godly lifestyle that produces salvation, but its salvation that that produces the godly lifestyle. One has not the ability to be godly apart from first being saved (enabled).
 
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There are two groups of people professing Christianity. Those who genuinely profess the faith by unceasingly manifesting it by their continued lifestyle of godliness; and those who falsely profess faith in Christianity (Jas 2:18) who cease from appearing to lives godly. Thus what the latter departs from is not faith, but from the doctrine of faith, which they never truly entered into.
So a person is either a Christian or they are not a Christian. Therefore when the Bible warns about "falling" or becoming an apostate (1 Cor 10:12; 1 Tim 3:6-7; Heb 4:11; 1 Cor 9:27; etc) it must refer to a Christian. For a non-Christian cannot fall already being fallen.

netchaplain said:
I agree that everything that results in life in contingent on conditions. My point is that man cannot perform any condition to produce salvation, only manifest receiving it. Thus as already stated, man's only condition is choosing to receive it; and the lifestyle will demonstrate if it is genuine or not. It's not a godly lifestyle that produces salvation, but its salvation that that produces the godly lifestyle. One has not the ability to be godly apart from first being saved (enabled).
Rom 6:16 obedience produces salvation..."obedience unto righteousness"
Rom 6:17-18 obey from the heart>>>>produces>>>>freed from sin/justified.
Rom 10:10 believe unto righteousness

As long as one continues to believe/obey he remains sealed.
 

netchaplain

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So a person is either a Christian or they are not a Christian. Therefore when the Bible warns about "falling" or becoming an apostate (1 Cor 10:12; 1 Tim 3:6-7; Heb 4:11; 1 Cor 9:27; etc) it must refer to a Christian. For a non-Christian cannot fall already being fallen.
It's my understanding that apostasy is eventually manifesting that you did not believe but merely professed to believe. What apostates fall from is a hypocritical profession, demonstrating they never truly believed. Those who truly believe "endure unto the end."
 
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It's my understanding that apostasy is eventually manifesting that you did not believe but merely professed to believe. What apostates fall from is a hypocritical profession, demonstrating they never truly believed. Those who truly believe "endure unto the end."
The word apostate from the Greek apostasia. Apo means to leave stasia means standing. Therefore it means one who has left his previous standing.


From the above link about the word apostate: (my emp)

(a pahss' tuh ssee) is the act of rebelling against, forsaking, abandoning, or falling away from what one has believed.


From the above link about apostasia:

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."


IF OSAS were true then it would make being an apostate an impossibility, there could be no such thing as an apostate if OSAS were true. A person who was "never really saved" has always been lost so his cannot fall, his standing has not changed. But for a Christian who becomes unfaithful his standing has changed to being now lost from previous standing of being saved.

When the Bible warns the Christian about 'falling' the word fall implies a change in position. IF I were in a tree and fell from that tree then my position/standing has changed from being in the tree to now being on the ground. The Christian falls and moves from a saved position to a lost position. One who has been a alien sinner, lost being alienated from God having not been in a NT covenant relationship with Christ cannot fall for he is already fallen, his position/standing has not changed.

There is no unconditional guarantee the Christian has he/she will endure thus the encouragements about enduring and warnings admonishments if one does not endure Mt 24:12-13

(This is getting into the forum's 'forbidden topic' so I won't be making more posts on it)
 

netchaplain

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The word apostate from the Greek apostasia. Apo means to leave stasia means standing. Therefore it means one who has left his previous standing.
If I were professing falsely then the previous situation I left is a false profession.

There is no unconditional guarantee the Christian has he/she will endure thus the encouragements about enduring and warnings admonishments if one does not endure Mt 24:12-13
“God is faithful, who will . . . make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1Co 10:13; 2Pe 2:9). Those who truly profess faith never desire to leave it (Phl 2:13).

God's blessings to your Family!
 

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The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?
All I have read so far is your first post so I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but...

It is a good question. I believe that I have worked out the answer to this and it is a simple one. There is no oxymoron. Let's remember two things, that there is rank in heaven and secondly is, I think that the two terms "eternal life" and "everlasting life" may be two different things.

I think that one can have everlasting life and be saved while others (higher in rank) may receive "eternal" life. What is that? I don't know. I've never been caught up or anything so I have to speculate that it probably means that those who have been granted eternal life are better endowed or have greater spiritual liberty or something of that sort. Higher in rank...more benefits higher pay, whatever. So it can be surmised that the people of heaven who are higher rank, were probably more obedient in their earthly life.

...and that could explain it.
 

netchaplain

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All I have read so far is your first post so I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but...

It is a good question. I believe that I have worked out the answer to this and it is a simple one. There is no oxymoron. Let's remember two things, that there is rank in heaven and secondly is, I think that the two terms "eternal life" and "everlasting life" may be two different things.

I think that one can have everlasting life and be saved while others (higher in rank) may receive "eternal" life. What is that? I don't know. I've never been caught up or anything so I have to speculate that it probably means that those who have been granted eternal life are better endowed or have greater spiritual liberty or something of that sort. Higher in rank...more benefits higher pay, whatever. So it can be surmised that the people of heaven who are higher rank, were probably more obedient in their earthly life.

...and that could explain it.
Hi Brother Ed! Interesting concept, but the two terms are the same word in the Greek:
Romans 6:22 "evelasting life; 23 "eternal life":

aiōnios https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G166&t=KJV

Concerning rewards other than heaven and fellowship with God, I believe all will inherit various a position of authority, "according to their works."
 

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Hi all :wave
Some of you may want to consider the 1st sentence of 1st Peter 4:18, "For if it is with DIFFICULTY that the RIGHTEOUS ARE SAVED,
what becomes of the Godless man and the sinner"?
Think about it.

God bless you all
My name is OLIGOS
 
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