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[__ Science __ ] The Lie of Evolution and the Truth of God’s Word

AIG.com

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Ken Ham has been on the front lines addressing how Christians should respond by giving answers based on God’s Word and sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Continue reading...
 

OzSpen

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Ken Ham has been on the front lines addressing how Christians should respond by giving answers based on God’s Word and sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Continue reading...
AIG.com,

In a link from the article you cited, Ken Ham stated:
"One cannot get the idea of millions of years from the Bible. This idea comes from outside of Scripture. When a Christian adds millions of years to the Bible and reinterprets the days of creation or tries to fit this extra time into the first verse in Genesis or a supposed gap between the first and second verses, he is allowing fallible man to be in authority over God’s Word" (Millions of Years - Are Souls at Stake?)
However, Ken Ham in this article also states:
"Answers in Genesis and other biblical creationists take an authoritative stand on six literal (approximately 24-hour) days of creation and a young (approximately 6,000-year-old) age for the earth and universe".
Where in Scripture does it state that the age of the earth and universe is approximately 6,000 years?

Oz

Ken Ham can't find millions of years in the Bible for the for the time since the creation of the earth and the universe. I can't find any statement of approx. 6,000 years.
 

Truthfrees

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Ken Ham has been on the front lines addressing how Christians should respond by giving answers based on God’s Word and sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Continue reading...
liked this part

But when it comes to Genesis, all the different views within the church, such as day-age theory, framework hypothesis, theistic evolution, local flood, and so on, all have one thing in common. Every one of these positions involves taking man’s belief in millions of years, based on the religion of naturalism, and trying to fit this into Scripture. Many of these views entail adding biological, geological, and astronomical evolution into Scripture. This involves eisegesis (reading ideas into Scripture), not exegesis (reading ideas out of Scripture). And adding millions of years into Scripture then blames God (not our sin) for death, suffering, and disease for millions of years (as they interpret the fossil record) preceding man. “Millions of years” is an attack on the character of God and undermines the gospel.

I assert that those who do not hold to a literal Genesis (six literal days, young earth, Adam from dust and Eve from his side, global flood, etc.) do so because they are influenced by what the world is teaching regarding origins and are attempting to add this to Scripture and force an interpretation on Genesis that undermines biblical authority.
 

Truthfrees

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AIG.com,

In a link from the article you cited, Ken Ham stated:

However, Ken Ham in this article also states:

Where in Scripture does it state that the age of the earth and universe is approximately 6,000 years?

Oz

Ken Ham can't find millions of years in the Bible for the for the time since the creation of the earth and the universe. I can't find any statement of approx. 6,000 years.
from his site - one of several articles


from another site

 
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OzSpen

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liked this part

But when it comes to Genesis, all the different views within the church, such as day-age theory, framework hypothesis, theistic evolution, local flood, and so on, all have one thing in common. Every one of these positions involves taking man’s belief in millions of years, based on the religion of naturalism, and trying to fit this into Scripture. Many of these views entail adding biological, geological, and astronomical evolution into Scripture. This involves eisegesis (reading ideas into Scripture), not exegesis (reading ideas out of Scripture). And adding millions of years into Scripture then blames God (not our sin) for death, suffering, and disease for millions of years (as they interpret the fossil record) preceding man. “Millions of years” is an attack on the character of God and undermines the gospel.

I assert that those who do not hold to a literal Genesis (six literal days, young earth, Adam from dust and Eve from his side, global flood, etc.) do so because they are influenced by what the world is teaching regarding origins and are attempting to add this to Scripture and force an interpretation on Genesis that undermines biblical authority.
Truthfrees,

You've made some sweeping assumptions in your statements here:
  • "All the different views within the church, such as day-age theory, framework hypothesis, theistic evolution, local flood, and so on, all have one thing in common. Every one of these positions involves taking man’s belief in millions of years, based on the religion of naturalism...."
I find that to be a provocative statement, loaded with your presuppositions. I have a high view of the authority of Scripture and want to hear what the Bible says through sound exegesis.
  • "I assert that those who do not hold to a literal Genesis (six literal days, young earth, Adam from dust and Eve from his side, global flood, etc.) do so because they are influenced by what the world is teaching regarding origins...."
Please help me to understand how you can conclude 'six literal days' when 'day' is used in 3 different ways in Gen 1 & 2:
  1. Daylight in Gen 1:5;
  2. A 24-hour day (Gen 1:14), and
  3. Gen 2:4 (ESV) states: 'These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created,in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens'. This is using 'day' in the sense of era, time or period.
How do you arrive at 6 literal days with 3 different senses of the use of yom (day) in Gen 1-2?

Oz
 

OzSpen

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I assert that those who do not hold to a literal Genesis (six literal days, young earth, Adam from dust and Eve from his side, global flood, etc.) do so because they are influenced by what the world is teaching regarding origins and are attempting to add this to Scripture and force an interpretation on Genesis that undermines biblical authority.
Truthfrees,

In 1978 there was a discussion among evangelical scholars at Wheaton College on this topic: Does Proper Interpretation of Scripture Require a Recent Creation? (Part I)

'The truthfulness, verbal inspiration, and the authority of the Bible were not at issue as all of the panelists, as well as Wheaton College, stated that they held to these doctrines'.

A recent creation was supported by Dr Duane Gish and Rev. Marvin L. Lubenow promoted 6 literal creation days.

Walter Kaiser Jr supports an older earth view but 'six times during the course of the evening he emphasized the fact that we cannot arrive at conclusive knowledge regarding the time element of Genesis 1, and that our interpretations are just that—interpretations by sinful fallible people. He urged humility and a respect for those with differing views on creation'. Kaiser further stated:

The majority view of the church, Kaiser maintained, up until Lyell and the birth of uniformitarianism in geology, was that the days of Genesis 1 were long creative periods of time—based largely upon the influence of Augustine. Kaiser further felt that Genesis 1-11 showed tremendous compression of time and of sequence that was incompatible with the literal position. He also emphasized the gaps in the chronologies of Genesis 5 and 11. He was not prepared, however, to state how much time Genesis 1-11 would allow.
I'll leave it to you to read the article, but it demonstrates how Bible-believing Christians with a high view of Scripture can interpret Gen 1-2 and the origin of the earth differently. Kaiser's exposing 'interpretations by sinful people' and the call to humility when differing with others was insightful for me.

Oz
 

Truthfrees

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Truthfrees,

You've made some sweeping assumptions in your statements here:
  • "All the different views within the church, such as day-age theory, framework hypothesis, theistic evolution, local flood, and so on, all have one thing in common. Every one of these positions involves taking man’s belief in millions of years, based on the religion of naturalism...."
I find that to be a provocative statement, loaded with your presuppositions. I have a high view of the authority of Scripture and want to hear what the Bible says through sound exegesis.
  • "I assert that those who do not hold to a literal Genesis (six literal days, young earth, Adam from dust and Eve from his side, global flood, etc.) do so because they are influenced by what the world is teaching regarding origins...."
Please help me to understand how you can conclude 'six literal days' when 'day' is used in 3 different ways in Gen 1 & 2:
  1. Daylight in Gen 1:5;
  2. A 24-hour day (Gen 1:14), and
  3. Gen 2:4 (ESV) states: 'These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created,in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens'. This is using 'day' in the sense of era, time or period.
How do you arrive at 6 literal days with 3 different senses of the use of yom (day) in Gen 1-2?

Oz
those are quotes of the article - not my words

there was evening - there was morning - the first day - etc - Genesis 1:5

in hebrew evening and morning are sunset (light leaving) and sunrise (light coming) - nothing allegoric about these specific words in Genesis 1

all through Genesis 1 a day is declared as evening/sunset and then morning/sunrise - stating that according to God and judaism a day starts at sundown and continues the next morning to be the same day
 
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Truthfrees

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Truthfrees,

In 1978 there was a discussion among evangelical scholars at Wheaton College on this topic: Does Proper Interpretation of Scripture Require a Recent Creation? (Part I)

'The truthfulness, verbal inspiration, and the authority of the Bible were not at issue as all of the panelists, as well as Wheaton College, stated that they held to these doctrines'.

A recent creation was supported by Dr Duane Gish and Rev. Marvin L. Lubenow promoted 6 literal creation days.

Walter Kaiser Jr supports an older earth view but 'six times during the course of the evening he emphasized the fact that we cannot arrive at conclusive knowledge regarding the time element of Genesis 1, and that our interpretations are just that—interpretations by sinful fallible people. He urged humility and a respect for those with differing views on creation'. Kaiser further stated:


I'll leave it to you to read the article, but it demonstrates how Bible-believing Christians with a high view of Scripture can interpret Gen 1-2 and the origin of the earth differently. Kaiser's exposing 'interpretations by sinful people' and the call to humility when differing with others was insightful for me.

Oz
true - thank you
 

OzSpen

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those are quotes of the article - not my words

there was evening - there was morning - the first day - etc - Genesis 1:5

in hebrew evening and morning are sunset (light leaving) and sunrise (light coming) - nothing allegoric about these specific words in Genesis 1

all through Genesis 1 a day is declared as evening/sunset and then morning/sunrise - stating that according to God and judaism a day starts at sundown and continues the next morning to be the same day
Truthfrees,

You did not answer my questions.

I stated: 'day' is used in 3 different ways in Gen 1 & 2:
  1. Daylight in Gen 1:5;
  2. A 24-hour day (Gen 1:14), and
  3. Gen 2:4 (ESV) states: 'These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created,in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens'. This is using 'day' in the sense of era, time or period.
How do you arrive at 6 literal days with 3 different senses of the use of yom (day) in Gen 1-2?

Yet, you want yom to mean:

all through Genesis 1 a day is declared as evening/sunset and then morning/sunrise - stating that according to God and judaism a day starts at sundown and continues the next morning to be the same day
The exegetical evidence does not support your conclusion.

Oz
 

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Rabbinical judaism does get so legalistic, that not only do they obsess with it starting at sundown, on Friday, but they actually have debates over what customs need to abide by shabbat according to Jerusalem's time zone.

I don't subscribe to any of that. But if you're going to look up to Jewish customs, then how do you go from obsessing with a shabbat lasting 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 56 seconds, starting at sundown in Jerusalem--to suddenly saying a day is not literal, and in fact means millions of years? It's cherry picking. And that's BEFORE I even bring up Seventh Day Adventism.

Personally, I don't see either young earth creation or theistic evolution contradicting the Bible. I just don't think evolution stands on its own two feet on pure scientific grounds. Atheistic evolutionists probably think it's at least the best explanation out there. Certainly better than an invisible god just poof and created it all. But even if that were true, I'm not about to accept a poor explanation simply because it's better than no explanation at all.
 

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Truthfrees,

You did not answer my questions.

I stated: 'day' is used in 3 different ways in Gen 1 & 2:
  1. Daylight in Gen 1:5;
  2. A 24-hour day (Gen 1:14), and
  3. Gen 2:4 (ESV) states: 'These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created,in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens'. This is using 'day' in the sense of era, time or period.
How do you arrive at 6 literal days with 3 different senses of the use of yom (day) in Gen 1-2?

Yet, you want yom to mean:



The exegetical evidence does not support your conclusion.

Oz
maybe check this out and let me know what you see re: yom and hayom


there is nothing to indicate that a day is more than 24 hours - so in each of these uses you cited YOM is 24 hrs or less

the link i gave above will clarify if you want to see all that YOM is

show me from hebrew where yom clearly means more than 24 hrs

here are the 3 links to the 3 scriptures you cited



 

OzSpen

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maybe check this out and let me know what you see re: yom and hayom


there is nothing to indicate that a day is more than 24 hours - so in each of these uses you cited YOM is 24 hrs or less

the link i gave above will clarify if you want to see all that YOM is

show me from hebrew where yom clearly means more than 24 hrs

here are the 3 links to the 3 scriptures you cited



Truthfrees,

One of the foremost evangelical scholars of the OT is Dr Walter Kaiser Jr. He said:
The word day there (Gen 1-2) is used in three different ways: 1) day is daylight as opposed to nighttime, so it’s twelve hours; 2) day is twenty-four hours at verse 5 for “daytime”; verse 14 is God put the greater light and the lesser light – He didn’t say “sun” and “moon.” He didn’t want them to worship that – greater light and lesser light; for days and for seasons and years, that’s twenty-four hours. Then in 2:4 he summarizes the whole thing: 3) “In the day that the Lord God created the heaven and the earth.” That’s like “in the day of Abraham Lincoln,” “in the day of the phonograph,” in the day of whatever (Are the Genesis Creation Days 24 Hours or Long Periods of Time?)
In Gen 2:4, 'yom' cannot possibly mean a 24-hour period because of the content of the narrative, 'These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens' (ESV).

This verse does not say that the creation of the generations of the heavens and the earth were 'in the 6 literal days of creation when the Lord God made earth and the heavens'.

Gen 2:4 provides the third use of the meaning of day (yom) as in the time of, the era of, say, John Bunyan writing The Pilgrim's Progress.

H C Leupold in his commentary on Genesis 2:4 made an exegetical analysis that makes sense of the text:
Verse 4 a and 4 b are usually translated as a whole, with the result that two temporal clauses of nearly identical meaning appear within a sentence, calling forth artificial attempts at distinctions. By keeping 4 a separate as a title and by combining 4b with 5, this trouble is removed, and a very natural rendering results. For the two initial clauses of v. 5, introduced by waw [and] may be correlative [connected to]: 'When God made heaven and earth neither was there a shrub ... nor had any plant sprouted. At the same time the complicated sentence structure which the critics make of v. 5-7 is shown to be quite unnecessary and quite cumbersome (Exposition of Genesis 2:4).
I have to disagree that the 3 different uses of 'yom' (day) in Gen 1 & 2 mean the same - 24 hour periods.

Oz
 

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maybe check this out and let me know what you see re: yom and hayom


there is nothing to indicate that a day is more than 24 hours - so in each of these uses you cited YOM is 24 hrs or less

the link i gave above will clarify if you want to see all that YOM is

show me from hebrew where yom clearly means more than 24 hrs

here are the 3 links to the 3 scriptures you cited



I have to disagree that the 3 different uses of 'yom' (day) in Gen 1 & 2 mean the same - 24 hour periods.

Oz
actually this is what i said
there is nothing to indicate that a day is more than 24 hours - so in each of these uses you cited YOM is 24 hrs or less
i understand your point - but disagree

i read the Genesis account - it says evening morning the "_" day

if you can read more than 24 hours into what i quoted below then we will have to agree to disagree

Genesis 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
The History of Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

THE FIRST DAY
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

THE SECOND DAY

6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

THE THIRD DAY

9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree thatyields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.

THE FOURTH DAY

14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great [d]lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

THE FIFTH DAY

20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

THE SIXTH DAY

24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

THE SEVENTH DAY

Genesis 2:2-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
 

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In Gen 2:4, 'yom' cannot possibly mean a 24-hour period because of the content of the narrative, 'These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens' (ESV).
re Genesis 2:4 - the heavens and the earth were created before the 6 days of creation as per Genesis 1 and 2

iow the heavens and earth were also created in a day (Genesis 2:4) but Genesis does not make it clear if they were created the day before the 1st day of creation or not -

it is also possible that the heavens and the earth were created on the first day before God said LET THERE BE LIGHT - iow heaven - earth - and let there be light may have all occurred on the 1st day of creation

Genesis 2:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 1:1-5 New King James Version (NKJV)
The History of Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

THE FIRST DAY
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

or it could be this - the first day could include the creation of the heavens and the earth due to the fact the Genesis 2:4 says the heaven and the earth were created in THE day:

Genesis 1:1-5 New King James Version (NKJV)
The History of Creation
THE FIRST DAY

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
 
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OzSpen

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i read the Genesis account - it says evening morning the "_" day
It does not state that in Gen 2:4 (ESV): 'These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens'.

There is no 'evening and morning' the 7th day here.
 

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It does not state that in Gen 2:4 (ESV): 'These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens'.

There is no 'evening and morning' the 7th day here.
explained in this post
re Genesis 2:4 - the heavens and the earth were created before the 6 days of creation as per Genesis 1 and 2

iow the heavens and earth were also created in a day (Genesis 2:4) but Genesis does not make it clear if they were created the day before the 1st day of creation or not -

it is also possible that the heavens and the earth were created on the first day before God said LET THERE BE LIGHT - iow heaven - earth - and let there be light may have all occurred on the 1st day of creation

Genesis 2:4 New King James Version (NKJV)
4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 1:1-5 New King James Version (NKJV)
The History of Creation
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

THE FIRST DAY
3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

or it could be this - the first day could include the creation of the heavens and the earth due to the fact the Genesis 2:4 says the heaven and the earth were created in THE day:

Genesis 1:1-5 New King James Version (NKJV)
The History of Creation
THE FIRST DAY

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
 

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OzSpen
further explained here in these 3 links via the study of the original hebrew - generations comes from YALAD - BEAR BRING FORTH BEGET

so in short the bible is filled with the begetting/beginnings of families aka genealogies

Genesis 1 is the begetting/beginning of the heavens and the earth and all that is in the earth

to make the word generations into literal eons of time - rather than the begetting of the heaven and the earth is incorrect

there is a hebrew word for eons of time - OLAM - so if Genesis 2:4 was talking of eons of time it would have said OLAM not TOLEDOTH/YALAD
 

OzSpen

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OzSpen
further explained here in these 3 links via the study of the original hebrew - generations comes from YALAD - BEAR BRING FORTH BEGET

so in short the bible is filled with the begetting/beginnings of families aka genealogies

Genesis 1 is the begetting/beginning of the heavens and the earth and all that is in the earth

to make the word generations into literal eons of time - rather than the begetting of the heaven and the earth is incorrect

there is a hebrew word for eons of time - OLAM - so if Genesis 2:4 was talking of eons of time it would have said OLAM not TOLEDOTH/YALAD
Are you able to read & understand Hebrew grammar?
 

OzSpen

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OzSpen
further explained here in these 3 links via the study of the original hebrew - generations comes from YALAD - BEAR BRING FORTH BEGET

so in short the bible is filled with the begetting/beginnings of families aka genealogies

Genesis 1 is the begetting/beginning of the heavens and the earth and all that is in the earth

to make the word generations into literal eons of time - rather than the begetting of the heaven and the earth is incorrect

there is a hebrew word for eons of time - OLAM - so if Genesis 2:4 was talking of eons of time it would have said OLAM not TOLEDOTH/YALAD
However, there are also gaps in genealogies.

I'm talking about the meaning of yom (day) in Gen 2:4.
 

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Yes
most Chassidic sources will never say that the idea of the seven days(Shabbat) is based on that isn't meant to be literal. they usually don't base the age of the earth on that. which is strange but my chumash commentary and also Chabad say that.

for in six days God created the Heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day rested. the Shabbat time frame is based on that. remember that the Hebrew culture doesn't see the bible written in the context of a GREEK account of history with facts, and whose and whats to give full detail. its more about the important story.
 

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