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The sounding of the second trumpet

guysmith

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The sounding of the second trumpet describes a burning mountain being “cast†into the sea.

Revelation 8: 8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Jeremiah 51 describes future Babylon as a “mountain†which will be made to a “burnt mountainâ€â€¦..

Jeremiah 51:24 And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD.25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.

…..and at her demise, she will be cast to and sink into a body of water.

Jeremiah 51:63 And it shall be, when thou hast made an end of reading this book, that thou shalt bind a stone to it, and cast it into the midst of Euphrates:64 And thou shalt say, Thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring upon her: and they shall be weary. Thus far are the words of Jeremiah.

Based on Jeremiah 51, can the Burning Mountain described in Revelation 8: 8 be the Babylon?
 

Eugene

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Based on Jeremiah 51, can the Burning Mountain described in Revelation 8: 8 be the Babylon?
This is interesting and I do just do not know, because we come to Revelation 8:10 where we see a great star I believe to be Satan cast from heaven burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters, and he is described as an angel of light in 2 Corinthians 11:14.

Hopefully something in what you present here starts to gel within me. Thanks.
 

smaller

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The terms and conditions described in Revelation and in the associated texts are entirely wrapped in similitudes, which is another term for allegory, parable, symbolism, etc etc.

So a real basic question for anyone trying to tackle Revelation is, do you understand that it is allegory/similitude. If any reader doesn't approach it that way they are going to have issues before they even get out the gate.

Did the Prophets speak in similitudes? Of course. Let's look at the proof:

Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Even the Law is in fact a parable, from the O.T. for example:

Psalm 78:
1 Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth. 2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:

and restated as such many places in the New Testament by Jesus, here for example:

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Is
the account in Rev. 8 tied to Jeremiah 51? Absolutely, among many other ties.

Are they allegories? Unquestionably. Even in Rev. re: the mountain the term 'as it were' is deployed. Any time there is such terminology it is automatically allegory. Like/as/likened to/as it were are all allegorical linking terms. And it is not just limited to that mountain, but the entire account. IF one of the components is 'allegorical' than is the sum of the account 'likewise.'

When stepping into the realm of allegory and parable there are 'rules' that must be complied with that come from the text to apply to understandings of same, and for lack of 'rule compliance' there will be no understandings, even though the matters are printed and available to see. In this way the information is in fact hidden in plain and open sight.

It's not the territory for novices if they don't know the rules. And most of the time when a novice does hear the rules they will immediately reject the rules, which is part of understanding 'how the rules work.'

Part of the rule is to set aside all of our own understandings. If a novice rejects the rules it is because they can not lay aside their fantasies, and are in fact caught up in their own forms of idolatry. Which is also why they don't understand. They are already into idolatry.

It's not easy territory.

enjoy!

smaller


 

Eugene

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Part of the rule is to set aside all of our own understandings.
Are you saying there is no reality of all the revealing of Christ; it's all figurative and do you know their imagery?
 

smaller

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Part of the rule is to set aside all of our own understandings.
Are you saying there is no reality of all the revealing of Christ; it's all figurative and do you know their imagery?
Not at all Eugene.

Some readers who are not exercised in allegory/similitudes instantly think in their minds: Well, allegory and simile means it's not real.

That is not the case with scriptural allegories/similitudes.


For example we all take it for a fact that in the parable of the wheat and a tare, that we as believers are the wheat for sure. And that is TRUE and you are real I presume? You get the picture?

Allegory and similitude in scripture is meant to convey largely internal spiritual matters and must be understood as such and are assuredly real. They just can't be seen.

Another example, were we to take you or I and set us next to any common unbeliever, on the surface view you and I would have no possible way of distinguishing a believer from an infidel would we?

You get the picture, I'm sure.

Is the presence of God in Christ in our heart a realty? Well beyond question to me. More real than what I see on the outside.

s
 

Sinthesis

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Idolatry is a little harsh. I would say they just haven't identified their preconceptions. It seems better to try to understand exactly why people can't see other views instead of just labeling their biblical blindness as due to idolatry, if your goal is to illuminate rather than condemn.
 

Eugene

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Part of the rule is to set aside all of our own understandings.
Are you saying there is no reality of all the revealing of Christ; it's all figurative and do you know their imagery?
Not at all Eugene.

Some readers who are not exercised in allegory/similitudes instantly think in their minds: Well, allegory and simile means it's not real.

That is not the case with scriptural allegories/similitudes.


For example we all take it for a fact that in the parable of the wheat and a tare, that we as believers are the wheat for sure. And that is TRUE and you are real I presume? You get the picture?

Allegory and similitude in scripture is meant to convey largely internal spiritual matters and must be understood as such and are assuredly real. They just can't be seen.

Another example, were we to take you or I and set us next to any common unbeliever, on the surface view you and I would have no possible way of distinguishing a believer from an infidel would we?

You get the picture, I'm sure.

Is the presence of God in Christ in our heart a realty? Well beyond question to me. More real than what I see on the outside.

s
I think I see your meaning though hopefully I'll see the evidence when applied in key scriptures. :wave
 

smaller

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I think I see your meaning though hopefully I'll see the evidence when applied in key scriptures. :wave
It will be problematic to either 'see' or 'hear' trumpets in the external sense. Was just laying out a minor fact about how the subject matter should be approached.

s
 

smaller

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Idolatry is a little harsh. I would say they just haven't identified their preconceptions.
I don't say that in the derogatory sense to put anyone's salvation in jeopardy,
but more as an observation of an invisible internal compulsion in all of us to 'externalize' our sights of spiritual matters.

Idolatry is 'exemplified' by carvings and idols in the Old Testament. The reality of idolatry is a failure to perceive internally, spiritual matters. And it doesn't mean such won't be saved either. It's a state of mind that all of us pass through (or not.)

s
 

Eugene

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I have little reservation to applying allegories when it expounds or enhances the meaning of scripture. E.g., Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet. Is the Lord's Day one day, or does Jesus use a trumpet as His voice?
 

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