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The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

jasonc

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my testomony isn't from an atheist ,but a cult who left that and was into Buddhist ,zen,and also the occult and got saved and had bisexual inclinations ,

I wasn't raised to be a trinitarian,but soul sleep ,I found supprt against those on my own In. prayer ,God used the bible and the pastors to show me much .I stilk think I know but again I shall die not knowing .

I choose that because I already know from libertarisnusm the party the view of freedom which is often naive ,yet I remain that ,yes the,lesser of two evils but that not the point .I also have seen anarchy up front ,with a being limiting mans will or choices ,we very much would self destruct .

I served in,Afghanistan ,I could pay a minor to get drugs ,woman or what I wanted ,one offered soldiers that .that isnt an isolated event ,he had contacts .whether true or not the fact on drugs and how he talked like he could makes me think he could .
 

wondering

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you assume Godcoerces us to repent on,their pov.
you,assume That you on your oen free will,without any influence from God that you,would repent ,

no,one I know without calamity ,or hearing a testimony of great magnitude and even then their heart is worked on by God first repents


if man,could truly be free to make moral decisions without bias or having No inclination or benefit from,a choices exists .

if trump or biden didn't offer ,and i voted libertarian ,anything of benefit to the voter they wouldn't get in.that's his entire argument !

the limited ,not no free will ,is that our choices are limited by our nature ,satanic influence or Gods influence ,I wasn't inclined to want to be saved ,its was contra to me will.God in his timing decided to save me by revealing himself to me .he allowed me to self destruct but. choose to at the right time reveal himself ,you made it sound like I sought him out or any who get saved .

for it is appointed for all men to die tgen judgement ,who planned the deaths of men,they the persons just decided they will die ,and how ?or God allowing it and knowing the exact time?

he does harden hearts ,but only,as he revealed his plan of repentance first .if God doesn't raise and cause kings to rise and fall whom does ?

Daniel 2:21
Did God cause the extermination of the Jews? His very own people?
Does HE cause all the wars and sickness?
Does HE cause all the sinning we do?

Men cause kings to rise and fall.
Sometimes they cause their own demise.

Some seek God.
Some don't and just bump into Him.
But did God make us believe?
Does God force us to love Him?
 

wondering

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Jason ,

You need not post websites with information about what I believe, or about what Calvinists think about Wesley's teachings. What I want is for you to reference the specific quote or quotes by specific persons. But more importantly, I want you to tell me what you think I believe and why it is wrong in your eyes.

Have you ever read Wesley? Have you read anything other than someone else's viewpoint of Wesleyan thought? It is one thing to read for yourself and disagree, and quite another to just take someone else's perspective. You do yourself no favor to do just the latter.


Doug
Hi Doug
I used to go to a Nazarene church before I moved here.
I have a question for you.....
Do you believe that perfect sanctification can be achieved in this life?
As far as I can understand,,,this idea no longer really exists.
Thanks.
 

jasonc

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Did God cause the extermination of the Jews? His very own people?
Does HE cause all the wars and sickness?
Does HE cause all the sinning we do?

Men cause kings to rise and fall.
Sometimes they cause their own demise.

Some seek God.
Some don't and just bump into Him.
But did God make us believe?
Does God force us to love Him?
he allows it .

he also choose 400 years for,the amorites ,what did they do?

oh lots of sins like the days of Noah ,Sodom and well we have 2020 years of that going on and yet God decided to patiently judge on His time .

its not 400 or 2000 but,when God havibg warned man .you reaLily assume that
we have no will as taught ,
is God a libertariam free will,agent ?

God has no,nature that he must decide from?
if God isnt that way himself ,then well his creation certainly can't be
 

wondering

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he allows it .

he also choose 400 years for,the amorites ,what did they do?

oh lots of sins like the days of Noah ,Sodom and well we have 2020 years of that going on and yet God decided to patiently judge on His time .

its not 400 or 2000 but,when God havibg warned man .you reaLily assume that
we have no will as taught ,
is God a libertariam free will,agent ?

God has no,nature that he must decide from?
if God isnt that way himself ,then well his creation certainly can't be
God has a fully holy nature.
He cannot sin.

But He made Adam.
Adam sinned.

Are you saying God created us to be LIKE HIM??

God gave us free will.
It was never taken away.

When was it taken away, if you think we do not have it?
 

jasonc

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God has a fully holy nature.
He cannot sin.

But He made Adam.
Adam sinned.

Are you saying God created us to be LIKE HIM??

God gave us free will.
It was never taken away.

When was it taken away, if you think we do not have it?
we never had his level of will .
i want to murder

God under your argument limits me by coercision as he sets punishrmt and ordain govts to punish murder or if not judges it himself .in either case the threat is there


you make logical error there
 

jasonc

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we never had his level of will .
i want to murder

God under your argument limits me by coercision as he sets punishrmt and ordain govts to punish murder or if not judges it himself .in either case the threat is there


you make logical error there

why I can't edit this ,no clue

you quoted this when it says,I,am free from,hhuman nature to decide .
Adam is in a pree fall state .he could only decide what was in him and he choose evil and we having been. under less perfection have less of inclination.

I,am a male per your argument i can choose anything you a female can do and then call it man hood .nature ,remember it ,you said we are limited yourself .

Adam worked with the view of compabipity and his choices weren't outside of what was offered ,good by resisting satan or evil ,or indecision
that's it .that's not libertarian at all,one force God limited him to death if he did ,another via deception offered life and as God .

Adam choose death ,either because he wanted to ,or because he loved eve more then God .we don't know .in,any event the fact is we have no level of freedom from,natural inclinction .

you imply we do .

 

jasonc

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I have never heard the view in the non Calvinist churches that any man seeks God first ,yet one just said that .

For none seeks righteousness
of course ,if you believe that isn't true then yes by logicso conclusion total depravity isn't true ,and true free will from nature and sin is possible

why would such men need salvation,since sin doesn't exist in them or any inclination?
 

TibiasDad

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Hi Doug
I used to go to a Nazarene church before I moved here.
I have a question for you.....
Do you believe that perfect sanctification can be achieved in this life?
As far as I can understand,,,this idea no longer really exists.
Thanks.

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation, including that "perfect sanctification" is usually referred to as Entire Sanctification, or my preferred expression, Perfect Love.

Let me explain what I understand and mean by Perfect Love.
I hope I am not overstepping, but I think I read in one of your posts that you were caring for your sick husband (if that was someone else, then I apologize), and that is a temporal example of perfect love. Not just the caring for a sick spouse, but the whole idea and concept of marriage.

Perfect Love is when one is completely devoted to one and there is no other desire but for that one. It is a process that continues for a lifetime, but we can say at any particular point that we are completely devoted and have no desire for anyone or anything besides the one.

But life is fluid, and this state, being totally devoted, needs to be renewed daily; there are always things and choices that seek to distract our attention from the one, things and choices that we need to be mindful of, and guarded in heart about. If at any point in my relationship, with my wife or with Christ, I am completely devoted and desirous of their well-being above all other things, I am loving perfectly. So yes, I still think it possible, because love is the one thing that we are told to be as perfect as God is, in as far as we are capable. (Matt 5:48)

But Perfect Love is not absolute perfection of enactment, nor is it sinlessness in the sense that we are incapable of sinning. Wesley never taught such a thing! It is simply loving God and his ways above and beyond all other things! It is the first commandment, no other gods before Him! It is loving one so much and so completely that their needs are always our greatest desire to meet. When they are sick, we are there at all costs as far as we are able.

This is more of a personal definition than a theological one, but that is the thing about Wesley that I love, it is pragmatic theology by which we can live our lives. It is simple, yet profoundly difficult to imagine. Love God with all and in all we have and are, and our fellow men as we love ourselves!


Doug
 

jasonc

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like Calvin ,long dead ,and people quote,and misread,or understand him .ie free will ,no,will and its limited will.

my night mares and desires ,and where I,am forced me to look into this .

some post he or the reformed teach we are zombies ,they don't ,our decisions are made on our natural inclinations to sin.

as hospes said talk,at each other
 

TibiasDad

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my testomony isn't from an atheist ,but a cult who left that and was into Buddhist ,zen,and also the occult and got saved and had bisexual inclinations ,

I wasn't raised to be a trinitarian,but soul sleep ,I found supprt against those on my own In. prayer ,God used the bible and the pastors to show me much .I stilk think I know but again I shall die not knowing .

I choose that because I already know from libertarisnusm the party the view of freedom which is often naive ,yet I remain that ,yes the,lesser of two evils but that not the point .I also have seen anarchy up front ,with a being limiting mans will or choices ,we very much would self destruct .

I served in,Afghanistan ,I could pay a minor to get drugs ,woman or what I wanted ,one offered soldiers that .that isnt an isolated event ,he had contacts .whether true or not the fact on drugs and how he talked like he could makes me think he could .
Thank you for your service!

Doug
 

Hospes

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Can't slow down my reading. I'm taking care of my sick husband and you'll have to be patient if I miss something.
Very sorry to hear about your husband. I will pray for him. I'll also do my best remember to be more gracious if you seem to miss something I have written. Also, you mentioning real-world stuff has a bit of a jarring effect on me and helps me remember the people on this forum are three-dimensional flesh-and-blood real-world people and not a two-dimensional character on a computer forum. Thank you; I needed that.
I stated that God can override our will at times. Limited times. And I even gave examples.
No time to post it again. Please go back and read what I wrote.
There are times when God will intercede in human actions in some way.
He can take evil meant by someone and turn it to good. Joseph's brothers.
He can harden a heart by giving up on a person and ALLOWING them to go their own way.
I did as you suggested and I went back to find where you had mentioned God overriding free will and the best I found is above where you mention God interceding in human action. Is this what you were referencing?

Also, I am a bit surprised you believe that on rare occasion God overrides free will. I guess I was under the impression that God gave free will to each and every person as an irrevocable gift. Do you have thoughts on why God would do an override? (It's okay if your answer is "I don't know", in that God does not always provide us such answers. Many time His judgements are unsearchable and ways inscrutable. Romans 11:33)
 

Hospes

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When we become born again, we are guided by the Holy Spirit.
Our conscience becomes conformed to the moral law that God has provided to mankind.
I do believe some learning also has to take place in regard to the conscience.
From what I understand you have told me, when you write of the Holy Spirit guiding, you mean He works in an advisory role and a teaching role. Not in a way you'd consider His guidance as being decisive, since He has delegated any decision to you exercising your free will. And your conscience and behavior being conformed to Good is also done only by means of you using your free will to choose conformation to His character.
As to the role of God before being born again.....
God's grace falls on all of mankind or no one would ever become saved.
We are, however, free to respond to this invitation from Him. We are not so depraved as to be unable to respond.
God offers His helping hand to all that are in the pit and not just a select few.
When you write about God's helping hand, does this go beyond Him making the Gospel known to an individual? Or if someone uses their free will to take His hand, does He take more an active role as long as the person does not choose to let go of His hand?
 

wondering

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you assume Godcoerces us to repent on,their pov.
you,assume That you on your oen free will,without any influence from God that you,would repent ,

no,one I know without calamity ,or hearing a testimony of great magnitude and even then their heart is worked on by God first repents


if man,could truly be free to make moral decisions without bias or having No inclination or benefit from,a choices exists .

if trump or biden didn't offer ,and i voted libertarian ,anything of benefit to the voter they wouldn't get in.that's his entire argument !

the limited ,not no free will ,is that our choices are limited by our nature ,satanic influence or Gods influence ,I wasn't inclined to want to be saved ,its was contra to me will.God in his timing decided to save me by revealing himself to me .he allowed me to self destruct but. choose to at the right time reveal himself ,you made it sound like I sought him out or any who get saved .

You say that our choices are limited by satanic influence or God's influence.
And right you are.
What other influences are there???
Free will, biblically speaking, if the CHOICE we have of either choosing the good or the bad/evil.
It is a MORAL choice.
Easy as that.

You say that I said that you sought out God.
Jason,,,I've known persons that HAVE sought God.
Some get saved by some spiritual experience,
some get saved because they want to be saved.
We don't all get saved the same way.
But that we are saved by Jesus' blood is the same for everyone.
for it is appointed for all men to die tgen judgement ,who planned the deaths of men,they the persons just decided they will die ,and how ?or God allowing it and knowing the exact time?

he does harden hearts ,but only,as he revealed his plan of repentance first .if God doesn't raise and cause kings to rise and fall whom does ?

Daniel 2:21
Men die once because Adam sinned. Maybe we were made to last forever?
One of the preternatural gifts man had before the fall was eternal life, which was lost, I mean immortality.
 

jasonc

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You say that our choices are limited by satanic influence or God's influence.
And right you are.
What other influences are there???
Free will, biblically speaking, if the CHOICE we have of either choosing the good or the bad/evil.
It is a MORAL choice.
Easy as that.

You say that I said that you sought out God.
Jason,,,I've known persons that HAVE sought God.
Some get saved by some spiritual experience,
some get saved because they want to be saved.
We don't all get saved the same way.
But that we are saved by Jesus' blood is the same for everyone.

Men die once because Adam sinned. Maybe we were made to last forever?
One of the preternatural gifts man had before the fall was eternal life, which was lost, I mean immortality.
so,these persons ,said that while deciding to create or find a God if his choice in,sin .if God didn't do any inination to guide men back to him ,man wouldnt even know what or how God is,The law of moral codes is written in,is us to damn us or lead us.you assume we have the power to make any choice outside of satanic or Godly influence .

we don't ,God only knows,fully why he had to create that tree to give Adam the option to fall.

behold i go to prepare a placd for you ,

if all 12 died in sin ,the, jesus would give away those places for those he said that too ,you make it sound like God sees out lives and already knows our decisions and doesn't already know ,plan or exist after us and have his homes for set in stone,

that is exactly what the reformed say ,God makes no one serve him ,offers it all and reveals himself to all and knows who will respond and built accordingly .

Jacob and esau,the elder shall serve the younger and later shake off the.chains ,

,since that passed ,could the two nations act outside of what God foresaw?no because God saw and knows the future and told it to Jacob and esau .he didn't force ,coerce and make them act,he merely allowed them to be and used each decision to his glory .

I,am one of those who said I sought out God ,plenty of Muslims and others,will,say the same and yet will are they sincere ?for the true God ,blinded and sidelined by satan ?.
.

trust me ,had I not because God I believe set it up for me to fail ,did so ,I,would not be saved . I wanted things that really not of God but things only God coukd provide but on my terms .

I'm skeptical on seekers at times ,unless God is working on them


sorry we don't have choice like you think.
 

Fastfredy0

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I hate to be picky, but you asked so here goes:
This is from the terms of service found at the beginning of the Homepage.
1.12: We want to respect copyrighted material.
Very good. I will comply as best I can.

I'd like to reply to you, not RC Sproul !
Well, seems most on here often use quotes from others and not there own words.
What I want is for you to reference the specific quote or quotes by specific persons.
You yourself have used Scripture quotes to makes your points. In the response to me you used a quote from theopeidia to define "Libertarian free will" ... so your request seems arbitrary.

Libertarian free will​

Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God. All "free will theists" hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice. Libertarian freedom is, therefore, the freedom to act contrary to one's nature, predisposition and greatest desires. Responsibility, in this view, always means that one could have done otherwise.
Good a foundation to work from. I know Hospes was trying to get one from you so he could use said foundation to develop his questions. He is very capable and entertaining to read. I hope he continues his questioning.
Aside: Hope your hubby is feeling better.

Yes. Every person on earth has the ability to choose God or reject God. Or to choose God's salvation in Christ, as you put it.
I did have one 2 part question regarding the above statement.
  1. How are those who never heard the gospel saved
  2. Concerning those who die in child birth, that are aborted or still born ... How do they "choose God or reject God". If they don't 'choose God or reject God", is their eternal state determined solely by God.
P.S. If you care to speak about God's sovereignty, I'm good with that.
Well, I will let Hospes continue. Maybe when he's done. I would have a lot of questions.


It seems the reformed faith can't seem to reconcile God's sovereignty with free will.
Not true. I could answer, but I will let Hospes continue. I am trying to watch from the sidelines.

How little does God have to be to be afraid to give us free will?
Fear is not an attribute of God from a reformed view point.

The reformed do NOT make God sound very sovereign.
On the contrary... reformed doctrine believes God ordains ALL things.
Arminian Viewpoint
God sovereignly makes some of his decisions dependent upon the decisions of creatures. God takes the risk that his desires may be thwarted. Thus what God decided to create, he cannot guarantee that everything will go precisely the way he would like. God has sovereignly decided to make his election to salvation dependent upon human response to divine grace. (my insight: God has sovereignly decided in some circumstances to make man sovereign )

WCF on sovereignty:
God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

God has pre-determined everything that happens. The future is as certain to Him as the past. All things happen according to the will of God. When did God give this blueprint for history? “From all eternity.” Before anything happened He decided everything that would happen. He wrote history before time. What guided His choices? “His own will.” But that will needs to be defined. His will is tied to His character. The ingredient of His will are His wisdom and His holiness. He made his determination freely, meaning, without any influence outside of His own character and will. This decree is unchangeable, meaning that it is not altered or tweaked by anything that happens in time.
 

wondering

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I think there is a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation, including that "perfect sanctification" is usually referred to as Entire Sanctification, or my preferred expression, Perfect Love.

Let me explain what I understand and mean by Perfect Love.
I hope I am not overstepping, but I think I read in one of your posts that you were caring for your sick husband (if that was someone else, then I apologize), and that is a temporal example of perfect love. Not just the caring for a sick spouse, but the whole idea and concept of marriage.

Perfect Love is when one is completely devoted to one and there is no other desire but for that one. It is a process that continues for a lifetime, but we can say at any particular point that we are completely devoted and have no desire for anyone or anything besides the one.

But life is fluid, and this state, being totally devoted, needs to be renewed daily; there are always things and choices that seek to distract our attention from the one, things and choices that we need to be mindful of, and guarded in heart about. If at any point in my relationship, with my wife or with Christ, I am completely devoted and desirous of their well-being above all other things, I am loving perfectly. So yes, I still think it possible, because love is the one thing that we are told to be as perfect as God is, in as far as we are capable. (Matt 5:48)

But Perfect Love is not absolute perfection of enactment, nor is it sinlessness in the sense that we are incapable of sinning. Wesley never taught such a thing! It is simply loving God and his ways above and beyond all other things! It is the first commandment, no other gods before Him! It is loving one so much and so completely that their needs are always our greatest desire to meet. When they are sick, we are there at all costs as far as we are able.

This is more of a personal definition than a theological one, but that is the thing about Wesley that I love, it is pragmatic theology by which we can live our lives. It is simple, yet profoundly difficult to imagine. Love God with all and in all we have and are, and our fellow men as we love ourselves!


Doug
I thought of Matthew 5.48 as I was reading your reply.
BE PERFECT AS YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER IS PERFECT.
Jesus knew we could not be perfect,,,,but He set it forth as a goal...to be as perfect as possible, as you've said.

I always believed Wesley believed that one could be entirely sanctified in this life. I'm happy to hear that I was wrong.
Many Christian persons could be discouraged by this idea as it is not possible to never sin. (although some believe they never sin).

So this was a good explanation, and also, yes, I am taking care of my husband.
And yes, marriage is a holy institution - set apart - but, alas, this idea has been lost.
It's good to get old together.
 

wondering

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Very sorry to hear about your husband. I will pray for him. I'll also do my best remember to be more gracious if you seem to miss something I have written. Also, you mentioning real-world stuff has a bit of a jarring effect on me and helps me remember the people on this forum are three-dimensional flesh-and-blood real-world people and not a two-dimensional character on a computer forum. Thank you; I needed that.

:nod
I did as you suggested and I went back to find where you had mentioned God overriding free will and the best I found is above where you mention God interceding in human action. Is this what you were referencing?

God CAN intercede in history. He can change an outcome, God can do whatever He wants to do.
Romans 1:24 clearly states that God gives some over to their own lusts and sins. Pharaoh is an example. Maybe he hardened his own heart...maybe God hardened his heart; it's not 100% clear.

This, instead, is clear.....
Genesis 50:20
20“As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.


God will always achieve the outcome He wants.
It is precisely man's free will that might put in jeopardy God's plan. But God will always work any free will decision to achieve HIS plan.
Also, I am a bit surprised you believe that on rare occasion God overrides free will. I guess I was under the impression that God gave free will to each and every person as an irrevocable gift. Do you have thoughts on why God would do an override? (It's okay if your answer is "I don't know", in that God does not always provide us such answers. Many time His judgements are unsearchable and ways inscrutable. Romans 11:33)
I believe I covered this above.
One can think of it as a football game. Every individual on the field will play to his best ability and decide as he goes along
exactly which plays will be used, which action will be taken, etc. But in the end, the game will end the way God wants it to.
(For example purposes only: I don't know if God is into football !)

You also mentioned that free will is a gift. I've never thought of it that way.
Adam and Eve had gifts given to them that were lost upon disobedience and the fall.
These are preternatural gifts and are:
IMMORTALITY
INFUSED KNOWLEDGE
INTEGRITY

God gave A and E free will, which they abused, but it was never taken away.
We read of it in Deuteronomy, Joshua, Philmon, Revelation and many other verses.

Deuteronomy 30:19
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,


Joshua 24:15
15“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”


Choice denotes free will. A person that does not have free will cannot make a choice nor would one be offered to them.

Philemon 1:14
14but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.


Revelation 3:20
20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.


"IF anyone hears My voice......and opens the door."
Again, a free will choice to open the door to Jesus.

Thanks for your prayers.
 

wondering

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From what I understand you have told me, when you write of the Holy Spirit guiding, you mean He works in an advisory role and a teaching role. Not in a way you'd consider His guidance as being decisive, since He has delegated any decision to you exercising your free will. And your conscience and behavior being conformed to Good is also done only by means of you using your free will to choose conformation to His character.

Yes, you've understood the role of the Holy Spirit. I like how you put it..."choose conformation to His character". (but not always).
If it were otherwise......
if His guidance was DECISIVE....then we would never sin.
Would the Holy Spirit FORCE us to sin? No...a house divided against itself will fall.
Mark 3:24-25
24“If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25“If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.


When you write about God's helping hand, does this go beyond Him making the Gospel known to an individual? Or if someone uses their free will to take His hand, does He take more an active role as long as the person does not choose to let go of His hand?
Yes.
The more we obey God...the more He gives to us.
The more grace we use...the more He supplies.

I'm not sure what you mean by God taking an active role...
He gives us strength we would not have otherwise.
This is the kind of active role I refer to. (I'm not sure what you mean by it).

The reformed believe in Determinism and I definitely do not believe that God planned everything that happens.
 
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