What's new
Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Do not use Chrome Incognito when registering as it freezes the registration page.
  • We have just installed new software to help eliminate spam. If you experience any issues logging in or creating a new account, please use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of the page and we will assist you. Thank you!
  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • No longer will OSAS vx OSNAS be allowed to be debated, argued, or discussed in theology forum. Too much time is required to monitor and rescources used to debate this subject which hasn't been definitively decided in 3,000 years.

Who was the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition?

Dan00

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
371
Christian
Yes
Let me get this straight.

You say you interpret the prince who is to come as being Titus.

But, you won't rule out it being Christ.

Which is another way of saying, you simply don't know who it refers to.

Then you turn around and tell me that I misinterpret verse 26.

Now that is truly funny!

JLB
LOL! You are funny, JLB, but you also seem to have a difficult time reading what I am writing. I will try to write more clearly.

What I was trying to convey is this: your notion that the "prince" is a "symbol of evil" is incorrect. He can only be Christ, or one of Christ's servants (Titus) sent to destroy Jerusalem. Besides, it is written that the rulers of Jerusalem and their followers are the evil ones. That makes the interpretation much easier knowing who the evil ones are.

Lets look at the scripture very carefully, but in a different way:

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah [dominant noun] be cut off, but not for himself: and the people [dominant noun] of the prince [subordinate noun] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The "people of the prince" can also be written the "prince's people." Using "prince's" as the noun in verse 27 would create a non-sensical statement, like, "And the prince's shall confirm..."

Because the prince is a subordinate noun and the people cannot be a "he;" the only person that can be "he" in verse 27 is the dominant noun prior to "people," which is the Messiah:

Therefore, verse 27 reads like this:

27 And he [Messiah] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he [Messiah] shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he [Messiah] shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In verse 27, it was Messiah that "shall make desolate." In verse 26 the people (of the prince) shall destroy the city (which I assume is the same as "make desolate.") Therefore, the prince in verse 26 can either be Messiah, or his instrument, Titus. No others.

BTW, Titus was a prince at that time; but so was Jesus,

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth." (Rev 1:5)

Misinterpretation of Daniel 9 is not going to help you find a third temple in the scripture, anyway. There were nine chapters of prophecy in Ezekiel, alone, on the future second temple (Eze 40-48,) and nothing anywhere on the "Third."

Therefore, I have no alternative but to assume the "third" (if you must) and final temple is described in Ephesians 2:18-22.

Dan
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Topical Studies Moderator
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
23,030
Gender
Male
LOL! You are funny, JLB, but you also seem to have a difficult time reading what I am writing. I will try to write more clearly.

What I was trying to convey is this: your notion that the "prince" is a "symbol of evil" is incorrect. He can only be Christ, or one of Christ's servants (Titus) sent to destroy Jerusalem. Besides, it is written that the rulers of Jerusalem and their followers are the evil ones. That makes the interpretation much easier knowing who the evil ones are.

Lets look at the scripture very carefully, but in a different way:

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah [dominant noun] be cut off, but not for himself: and the people [dominant noun] of the prince [subordinate noun] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

The "people of the prince" can also be written the "prince's people." Using "prince's" as the noun in verse 27 would create a non-sensical statement, like, "And the prince's shall confirm..."

Because the prince is a subordinate noun and the people cannot be a "he;" the only person that can be "he" in verse 27 is the dominant noun prior to "people," which is the Messiah:

Therefore, verse 27 reads like this:

27 And he [Messiah] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he [Messiah] shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he [Messiah] shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

In verse 27, it was Messiah that "shall make desolate." In verse 26 the people (of the prince) shall destroy the city (which I assume is the same as "make desolate.") Therefore, the prince in verse 26 can either be Messiah, or his instrument, Titus. No others.

BTW, Titus was a prince at that time; but so was Jesus,

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth." (Rev 1:5)

Misinterpretation of Daniel 9 is not going to help you find a third temple in the scripture, anyway. There were nine chapters of prophecy in Ezekiel, alone, on the future second temple (Eze 40-48,) and nothing anywhere on the "Third."

Therefore, I have no alternative but to assume the "third" (if you must) and final temple is described in Ephesians 2:18-22.

Dan

It just gets better and better with you.

The last person mentioned in verse 26 is the prince who is to come.

That and only, represents who "he" is in verse 27.

Furthermore, the prince who is to come is "future" to those who destroy the city and sanctuary.

The phrase "is to come" puts the "prince" in a future role to the events described in verse 26.

If the "prince" was to be included among "those who destroy" the city and sanctuary, the sentence structure would read, the prince and his people destroy the city and sanctuary.

The prince who is to come, is of a "Roman descent", and is future to the events of 70 AD.

"he" in verse 27, is the prince who is to come.

"he", the prince who is to come, goes to a soon to be rebuilt Temple, and proclaims himself as God [Messiah].

"he" is destroyed by the brightness of the Coming of The Lord Jesus!

Simple grammar teaches us, "he" is the last person mentioned.


JLB

 

Sinthesis

Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
5,188
Christian
Yes
The people of Christ were the Jews. They "destroyed", or corrupted, the city and sanctuary morally (Strong's H7843 - hiphil, imperfect) thus inviting judgement.
The Romans were just the instrument that carried out the death sentence. A parody of Christ's crucifixion don't you think? The difference being that Christ rose the third day and His followers eventually conquered Rome and are shaping the world even today, while the physical temple still exists only in history 2000yrs later.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Topical Studies Moderator
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
23,030
Gender
Male
The people of Christ were the Jews. They "destroyed", or corrupted, the city and sanctuary morally (Strong's H7843 - hiphil, imperfect) thus inviting judgement.
The Romans were just the instrument that carried out the death sentence. A parody of Christ's crucifixion don't you think? The difference being that Christ rose the third day and His followers eventually conquered Rome and are shaping the world even today, while the physical temple still exists only in history 2000yrs later.

The Temple will be rebuilt soon, according to prophecy.

Jesus will return and destroy the false Messiah, by the brightness of His Coming.


JLB
 

Dan00

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
371
Christian
Yes
The people of Christ were the Jews. They "destroyed", or corrupted, the city and sanctuary morally (Strong's H7843 - hiphil, imperfect) thus inviting judgement.

The Romans were just the instrument that carried out the death sentence. A parody of Christ's crucifixion don't you think? The difference being that Christ rose the third day and His followers eventually conquered Rome and are shaping the world even today, while the physical temple still exists only in history 2000 yrs later.
Sinthesis,

Thanks for the Hebrew word. I never thought about it like that before.

Dan
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Topical Studies Moderator
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
23,030
Gender
Male
JBL,

Please show us the prophecy for the third temple! We really want to know.

Dan
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Paul is teaching from Daniel 9:26-27

26 After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.

Here in verse 26 the Temple is destroyed by the Romans.

In verse 27, we see temple language and Temple activities that have resumed.

Jesus referred us to Daniel for this very understanding.

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." Daniel 9:26-27 HCS


The Temple Institute is collaborating with The Israeli Government for the construction of this very Temple.

http://www.templeinstitute.org/



JLB
 

Dan00

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
371
Christian
Yes
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Paul is teaching from Daniel 9:26-27

26 After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.

Here in verse 26 the Temple is destroyed by the Romans.

In verse 27, we see temple language and Temple activities that have resumed.

Jesus referred us to Daniel for this very understanding.

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." Daniel 9:26-27 HCS

The Temple Institute is collaborating with The Israeli Government for the construction of this very Temple.

JLB
Neither 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 nor Daniel 9:26-27 mention a rebuilt "third" temple, nor is there so much as a hint of a rebuilt "third" temple in those passages.

The temple institute is a man-made invention, created by antichristians. This is their made-up "authority":

"There are three major points that Maimonides teaches us here:
  1. The purpose of the commandment of building the Temple is in order to offer the sacrifices, and it is a perpetual commandment that is binding upon every successive generation.
  2. The vessels of the Temple are an intrinsic part of the commandment and constitute a portion of the Temple structure, and all the units, separately and together, are considered as one precept.
  3. The accepted design of the Holy Temple is that which is described in Tractate Middot of the Babylonian Talmud. These principals are universally accepted as legally binding by the great Torah scholars throughout the generations."
Were those the same "great" Torah "scholars" who, due to their own misinterpretation of prophecy, and worship of their own man-made traditions, failed or refused to recognize their own Messiah when He appeared on schedule, 2000 years ago? The same ones who crucified him? Where is their decree from the Lord Jesus?

Please show us the real prophecy, from God, for the third temple!

Thanks,

Dan
 

Dan00

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
371
Christian
Yes
Jesus referred us to Daniel for this very understanding.

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." Daniel 9:26-27 HCS
I just noticed you are now quoting the Holman Christian Standard, as if there is a hidden "third" temple to be found in there. It is not in there, JBL.

BTW, the Holman Christian Standard (of the Southern Baptist Convention) is one of those modern translations that rejected the inclusion of the Holy Trinity in 1 John 5:7? Instead of this verse found in the King James Version:

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

We have this one in the Holman:

7 For there are three that testify:

Somehow it just does not seem the same.

Dan
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Topical Studies Moderator
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
23,030
Gender
Male
Neither 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 nor Daniel 9:26-27 mention a rebuilt "third" temple, nor is there so much as a hint of a rebuilt "third" temple in those passages.

The temple institute is a man-made invention, created by antichristians. This is their made-up "authority":

"There are three major points that Maimonides teaches us here:
  1. The purpose of the commandment of building the Temple is in order to offer the sacrifices, and it is a perpetual commandment that is binding upon every successive generation.
  2. The vessels of the Temple are an intrinsic part of the commandment and constitute a portion of the Temple structure, and all the units, separately and together, are considered as one precept.
  3. The accepted design of the Holy Temple is that which is described in Tractate Middot of the Babylonian Talmud. These principals are universally accepted as legally binding by the great Torah scholars throughout the generations."
Were those the same "great" Torah "scholars" who, due to their own misinterpretation of prophecy, and worship of their own man-made traditions, failed or refused to recognize their own Messiah when He appeared on schedule, 2000 years ago? The same ones who crucified him? Where is their decree from the Lord Jesus?

Please show us the real prophecy, from God, for the third temple!

Thanks,

Dan

You have been shown the truth from the scriptures.

You continually reject what the scriptures say, in favor of your preterist doctrines, that you have been inoculated from the truth with.

You believe that Jesus came in 70 AD, and resurrected "some" of His saints then, with no scriptural support what so ever.

No matter how many scriptures I have given you, your answer reject them in favor of your own opinion, yet giving no scripture in return.

You resort to quoting commentary from unsaved Jews, and preterist "teachers".

The man of sin will reveal himself from a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, showing signs and wonders and claiming to be The Messiah.

What will you tell your loved ones when this occurs?

What will your answer be when your family turns to you for answers.

Will you then tell them that he is the messiah?


JLB
 

Dan00

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
371
Christian
Yes
No matter how many scriptures I have given you, your answer reject them in favor of your own opinion, yet giving no scripture in return.
JLB, you have posted no proof, whatsover. Your claim of "proof" are some obscure references to 2 Thess 2:4 and Daniel 9:26-27, neither of which has anything to do with a third earthly temple. You are spiritualizing the scripture, plain and simple.

Dan
 

Dan00

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
371
Christian
Yes
You believe that Jesus came in 70 AD, and resurrected "some" of His saints then, with no scriptural support what so ever.
I always have scriptural support. It is called, let the scripture interpret the scripture. Your method is to make something up, then try to squeeze the "proof" out of the scriptures. It failed for the Jews in the days of Christ, and it will fail for dispensationalism.

Dan
 
Last edited:

Dan00

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
371
Christian
Yes
No matter how many scriptures I have given you, your answer reject them in favor of your own opinion, yet giving no scripture in return.
No matter how many? You mean all two of them, neither of which has anything to do with a rebuilt temple? This is dispensational doctrine at its worst, JLB.

You can do better than that.
 

Dan00

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
371
Christian
Yes
You resort to quoting commentary from unsaved Jews, and preterist "teachers".
Yes. I stand accused of quoting commentary from one of the greatest historians of all times: Josephus. I also stand accused of quoting classic and contemporary scholars who actually provide footnotes for their research.

You, on the other hand, quote Scofield and his protege, Hal Lindsey, neither of which offers a shred of proof for their claims, because they can't.
 
Last edited:

Dan00

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
371
Christian
Yes
You resort to quoting commentary from unsaved Jews, and preterist "teachers".
This is some of Cyrus Scofield's "research:" his note on the seven churches in Asia, from Revelation 1:4, with all his scriptural and historical footnotes:

"(4) prophetic, as disclosing seven phases of the spiritual history of the church from, say, A.D. 96 to the end. It is incredible that in a prophecy covering the church period, there should be no such foreview. These messages must contain that foreview if it is in the book at all, for the church does not appear after Rev 3.22. Again, these messages by their very terms go beyond the local assemblies mentioned. Most conclusively of all, these messages do present an exact foreview of the spiritual history of the church, and in this precise order. Ephesus gives the general state at the date of the writing; Smyrna, the period of the great persecutions; Pergamos, the church settled down in the world, "where Satan's throne is," after the conversion of Constantine, say A.D. 316. Thyatira is the Papacy, developed out of the Pergamos state: Balaamism (worldliness) and Nicolaitanism (priestly assumption) having conquered. As Jezebel brought idolatry into Israel, Song Romanism weds Christian doctrine to pagan ceremonies. Sardis is the Protestant Reformation, whose works were not "fulfilled." Philadelphia is whatever bears clear testimony to the Word and the Name in the time of self-satisfied profession represented by Laodicea.:"

Note that "brother" Cyrus Scofield provided no scriptural references, no historical footnotes, no crystal ball or tarot card readings, ... not a shred of evidence anything he says is true, because there is no evidence.

But he does, at least, provide the same amount of evidence he provides for the future third temple that he also claims, which is also none.
 
Last edited:

Dan00

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
371
Christian
Yes
The man of sin will reveal himself from a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, showing signs and wonders and claiming to be The Messiah.
You mean this Messiah?

"Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me?" Acts 7:49
 

Dan00

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
371
Christian
Yes
What will you tell your loved ones when this occurs?

What will your answer be when your family turns to you for answers.
My wife is sitting beside me reading your comments; and she is very appreciative of the fantastical entertainment you are providing, free of charge!
 

Initial Site Debt

Total amount
$804.00
Goal
$5,080.00
Top