New community TOS

[OzSpen]

Iron sharpening iron is not in the context of proving another wrong and strengthening ones fortress of tactical words for the purpose of destruction to which they are aimed. It is within the context of building one another up in the riches of Gods ways. It is a mutual edification where both feed off each other. The result is a deeper understanding of Gods word as well as strengthening the brotherhood.

SB,

From where did you gain that understanding of Prov 27:17? It is not what Hebrew exegetes Keil & Delitzsch discover from the grammar that verse. They wrote:

This proverb expresses the influence arising from the intercourse [conversation] of man with man....​

​

The proverb requires that the intercourse [conversation] of man with man operate in the way of sharpening the manner and forming the habits and character; that one help another to culture and polish of manner, rub off his ruggedness, round his corners, as one has to make use of iron when he sharpens iron and seeks to make it bright. The jussive form is the oratorical form of the expression of that which is done, but also of that which is to be done (Keil & Delitzsch n.d. Commentary on the Old Testament, vol 6, pp 212-213, Bible Hub).​

Allen P Ross in his commentary on Prov 27:17 states: 'Constructive criticism between friends develops character' (Expositor's Bible Commentary, vol 5, p 1099).

The interaction, even on CFnet, of one person/mind sharpening another, is critical for Christian growth. 'One person sharpening another' is literally, 'Sharpens the face of his friend' where the face stands for the whole personality (Edgar Jones, Proverbs & Ecclesiastes, p 219)

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

as per the dictionary definition of debate we certainly do not want debate - because it is usually ends up becoming warlike - thank you for clarifying

Truthfrees,

Some of the synonyms for debate are: discuss, confer about, talk over, talk through, talk about, exchange views on, exchange views about.

Don't you want this on CFnet?

Have we been wasting our time presenting material to redefine debate to the alternatives I provided? Have the moderators already made up their minds and the posters' views are irrelevant?

Seems so to me.

Oz

 

[Truthfrees]

Truthfrees,

Some of the synonyms for debate are: discuss, confer about, talk over, talk through, talk about, exchange views on, exchange views about.

Don't you want this on CFnet?

Have we been wasting our time presenting material to redefine debate to the alternatives I provided? Have the moderators already made up their minds and the posters' views are irrelevant?

Seems so to me.

Oz

no not at all - apologies if i somehow gave you that impression

i guess what i meant is that the trouble with debate is that the warlike aspect is what causes trouble here

the discussion aspect it what blesses people

so this part is the part we want

discuss, confer about, talk over, talk through, talk about, exchange views on, exchange views about.

this could for sure be called discuss - when you look at those words does it make you think of debate or discuss?

 

[Truthfrees]

Allen P Ross in his commentary on Prov 27:17 states: 'Constructive criticism between friends develops character' (Expositor's Bible Commentary, vol 5, p 1099).

The interaction, even on CFnet, of one person/mind sharpening another, is critical for Christian growth. 'One person sharpening another' is literally, 'Sharpens the face of his friend' where the face stands for the whole personality (Edgar Jones, Proverbs & Ecclesiastes, p 219)

Oz

what i would say is that constructive criticism between friends would NOT be public in front of others - it would be private one on one

so this statement is true - for a private conversation - but highly inappropriate for a public discussion

if someone really is wrong about a doctrine what is our goal? - to help them find the truth or to publicly embarrass them through public constructive criticism? - private is always better - otherwise the person becomes collateral damage in a public constructive criticism of their beliefs

 

[chessman]

when you look at those words does it make you think of debate or discuss?

Some people cannot look at “debate” without seeing bat. deBATe

But then again some people cannot look at “discussion” without seeing cuss. disCUSSion

(Pause)
(Pause)
(Oh well, I thought it was funny)

 

[OzSpen]

no not at all - apologies if i somehow gave you that impression

i guess what i meant is that the trouble with debate is that the warlike aspect is what causes trouble here

the discussion aspect it what blesses people

so this part is the part we want

discuss, confer about, talk over, talk through, talk about, exchange views on, exchange views about.

this could for sure be called discuss - when you look at those words does it make you think of debate or discuss?

Truthfrees,

I've suggested this approach, based on one of the dictionaries: discuss, confer about, talk over, talk through, talk about, exchange views on, exchange views about.

It seems to me that one of the good ways for this exchange of views to proceed is by use of questions for clarification to make sure I have a handle on your understanding of Word of Faith, another's belief in cessationism, or promotion of baptismal regeneration.

This takes a lot of time, using small posts. I can see people giving up on the process and getting to the core - with confrontation.

I know that's where you don't want these discussions to go, but I know my tendency when I've had enough of back and forth is to: (1) Be more direct with the person, or (2) Say bye, bye and leave the conversation.

I'm an old man and I grow tired or impatient with people defending what is not clearly taught in Scripture.

Bed is calling.

Oz

 

[chessman]

It seems to me that one of the good ways for this exchange of views to proceed is by use of questions for clarification to make sure I have a handle on your understanding ...

sound advice for Theology/Study! I would say questions are great for getting at the truth (versus allowing a falsehood to proceed). This though after first honestly considering/investigating their evidence for their view (hopefully the person’s view was Scripturally supported if posted in the Theology/discussion forum so that investigation can be done).

Then he asked, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree from which I forbade you to eat?”​

Genesis 3:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 3:11&version=LEB

Here’s an anecdote:

The other day, someone started a thread in the Theology forum and made a claim I disagreed with. (I know, I know most of you find it hard to believe I’d disagree with a poster. That’s a joke, BTW). I had drafted a fairly long reply explaining my disagreement. I was about to click ‘post reply’ and something (or Someone) told me to wait and go look at all the supporting verses (and of upmost importance their context) which he had tagged or partially quoted for his support. Hmm, turns out he was right and my initial view was wrong.

Anyway with regard to no more debate: discussion, where’s that proverb that says; ‘Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water’???

 

[JLB]

The Oxford Dictionaries Online's definition of 'debate' is:

1. 'A formal discussion on a particular matter in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward and which usually ends with a vote'.

Synonyms include:

discussion, exchange of views, discourse, parley

argument, dispute, wrangle, altercation, war of words

arguing, argumentation, wrangling, sparring, disputation, dissension, disagreement, controversy, contention, conflict, disharmony

negotiations, talks

dialogue, comment, interest

informal confab, powwow, rap session

rare velitation, contestation

2. 'An argument about a particular subject, especially one in which many people are involved'.

The Merriam--Webster Dictionary definition of 'debate' is:

a. 'to contend in words

b. 'to discuss a question by considering opposed arguments'
Synonyms for Noun: controversy, difference, difficulty, disagreement, disputation, dissension, firestorm.
Synonyms for Verb: chew over, cogitate, consider, contemplate, entertain, eye, kick around, meditate, mull (over), perpend, ponder, pore (over), question, revolve, ruminate, study, think (about or over), turn, weigh, wrestle (with).

Example of a debate

This is a copy of my (Spencer Gear) debate with a politician in the ACT (of which Canberra, Australia, is the capital), Michael Moore MLA. He was pushing the euthanasia bandwagon. This was my side of the debate: Voluntary Active Euthanasia – a Compassionate Solution to Those in Pain? He presented his view in favour of euthanasia and we had a back and forth discussion of the issues. There was a moderator and 500 people attended.

You might be interested in the content of this formal debate, Euthanasia Yes or No? A Debate with Dr. Philip Nitschke and (Then) Bishop-Elect Anthony Fisher.

However, on CFnet, I'm not of the view that we are wanting to use the rules of formal debate. Therefore, I suggest this explanation for CFnet debate:

It is a friendly discussion about differing views, an exchange of perspectives, a disagreement, but always done with the spirit of gentleness.​

Oz

​

I think the vote part could serve as a healthy balance for our Forum, as we develop the TOS and Statement of Faith over the next year.


I’m not saying it will take a year to develope these, but after they are implemented, I believe they will face new challenges that we have yet to see.

Kinda like Amendments to the Constitution.


This will also relieve some pressure off of the staff, knowing that we are all in a process of transformation and what we employ now as the new TOS and SOF, may be amended over the next few months as we see new people join.


Just a thought.



JLB

 

[JohnDB]

There's not going to be a rule about debate in private messages...and those wishing to argue are going to have to do it behind the scenes and without the public spectacle it creates.
Because these "arguments" create confusion for those who visit.
All those debates only attract those who want to battle.
We aren't wanting this site to be a battlefield where we war with each other.
The only real battle I wish to fight is with myself...I come here for rest and entertainment from the rest of the world. To hang out and play with my friends. Not play games of "I'm holier than thou because of my better theological positions"

 

[JLB]

The only real battle I wish to fight is with myself...

Isn’t that the truth.

I come here for rest and entertainment from the rest of the world. To hang out and play with my friends.

Do be surprised if everyone doesn’t have the same motive for coming here as you.


Their are more born again Christians that do not go to Church, than there are that do.

Many come to these Forums searching for the truth.


I, for one, want to encourage people to seek the Lord daily, and to learn from Him, as well as be founded on the solid rock of His teachings.


This Forum can have an eternal impact on many lives, in a way they may not be impacted through their local Church, if they go at all.



Just my thoughts.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Here's my two cents worth:

I like what OzSpen is saying and what chessman is saying and I don't agree with what's being said about debate.

In our current culture debate has taken on an evil meaning...someone must always win.

In prior times there were presidential debates, and even now. It's not my fault, or the fault of anyone posting here, if even the news wants to annouce WHO WON THE DEBATE.

It's not something that should require a winner,,,but the discussion of two opposing views.

What is to happen when I think eternals security is FALSE and UNBIBLICAL and someone else things it's CORRECT and BIBLICAL?
I'm supposed to PM them? For what? They have their belief and I have mine.

I've always posted for those reading along...I know I won't ever change chessman 's mind, or anybody else's.

So how is this resolved?
I tell my POV, he tells his POV, we go on for a little and then, personally, I like to stop. There will NOT be agreement in the end.

Funny, I was going to post the meaning of debate but Oz beat me to it. I also find nothing wrong with the word DEBATE. Maybe we could explain this in the TOS?

Also, as far as I'm concerned...it's just too long. Once we give the idea of what this forum should be, and post those 3 or 4 verses at the beginning...what else is necessary - if not for legal purposes??

Not much else is necessary. Why? Because those who don't UNDERSTAND the rules will not keep them, anyway.

I've gotten hot under the collar myself at times but due to sarcasm and personal remarks...this will happen every now and then and should even, maybe, be looked past..it's those that do this on a regular basis and create discord that should be avoided if we here want a forum that is peaceful.

Yes. I think that to me PEACEFUL should be the word we're looking for, more than non-debate....

I've learned a lot from some I don't agree with...
Doctrine I'd never even heard of...
We don't need to agree with someone to learn from them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Isn’t that the truth.





Do be surprised if everyone doesn’t have the same motive for coming here as you.


Their are more born again Christians that do not go to Church, than there are that do.

Many come to these Forums searching for the truth.


I, for one, want to encourage people to seek the Lord daily, and to learn from Him, as well as be founded on the solid rock of His teachings.


This Forum can have an eternal impact on many lives, in a way they may not be impacted through their local Church, if they go at all.



Just my thoughts.




JLB

Yes... But what is the truth?
We all think we have the truth....

 

[JohnDB]

Isn’t that the truth.





Do be surprised if everyone doesn’t have the same motive for coming here as you.


Their are more born again Christians that do not go to Church, than there are that do.

Many come to these Forums searching for the truth.


I, for one, want to encourage people to seek the Lord daily, and to learn from Him, as well as be founded on the solid rock of His teachings.


This Forum can have an eternal impact on many lives, in a way they may not be impacted through their local Church, if they go at all.



Just my thoughts.




JLB

I don't expect everyone to be exactly like me...I also don't expect everyone to have the same motives I do.
I think that someone coming here to ask questions and seek knowledge is a great reason to visit and stay. Rhoze does and she finds the answers to very complicated questions. (I can't help but poke fun at my friends)
She also makes great friendships along the way.

But I'm also acutely aware that any questions I might have are not going to be found in any forum. (JANES magazine maybe a source...but maybe not)
Mine are way beyond any unending osas discussion (that resembles a war) or current spiritual gifts discussion.

But that isn't to say that the basics can't be discovered here by many. Most people have no clue who God is. I would prefer that those with questions come here and discern what we offer. Those sorts who truly seek answers aren't looking to start us going to war with each other.

 

[JohnDB]

Yes... But what is the truth?
We all think we have the truth....

Jesus is very personal with each one of us. As such He doesn't approach everyone exactly the same because we are all individuals with different personalities and perspective. As a result we all view Jesus differently. Not that the truth is relative...not in the least. But everyone is at a different place in their walk.

 

[JLB]

Yes... But what is the truth?
We all think we have the truth....

Jesus Christ is the truth: everything that comes out of His mouth.

His Gospel
His Doctrine
His Commandments




JLB

 

[JLB]

What is to happen when I think eternals security is FALSE and UNBIBLICAL and someone else things it's CORRECT and BIBLICAL?
I'm supposed to PM them? For what? They have their belief and I have mine.

This is a good point.


I think much of this will come to light when we begin to develope the Statement of Faith.


Understanding and Defining biblical words and phrases will go a long way to cut down on the back and forth, repeating of post’s and scriptures that cause so much frustration and strife between all.



IOW, what good does it do, if we quote a scripture for what we believe, and a person just redefines the words of Christ to suit their own perspective?


I can give an example.




JLB

 

[JohnDB]

Understanding and Defining biblical words and phrases will go a long way to cut down on the back and forth, repeating of post’s and scriptures that cause so much frustration and strife between all.
IOW, what good does it do, if we quote a scripture for what we believe, and a person just redefines the words of Christ to suit their own perspective?


I can give an example.




JLB

That's what the moderating and admin staff is for. (We aren't just sidewalk superintendents)
Those situations are for the membership to report and for us to handle.

 

[WIP]

SB,

I'm of the view that a Christian forum needs debate. These Scriptures encourage this:

• Prov 27:17 (NIRV) states, 'As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another'.

This automatically infers debate to sharpen our beliefs an behaviour

• Acts 19:9 (ESV): 'But when some became stubborn and continued in unbelief, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them and took the disciples with him, reasoning daily in the hall of Tyrannus'.

I don't know how Paul could reason/have discussions with the people daily, without engaging in debate. Or, am I off the planet?

I can accept the need for congenial debate but debate is part of growing in the grace and knowledge of the Saviour and defending our faith (1 Pet 3:15).

• Col 4:5-6 (NIV): 'Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone'

Therefore my statement for the CFnet TOS is:

​

CFnet blog discussions encourage debate and reasoning (Prov 27:17; Acts 19:9) with grace, gentleness and tact (Col 4:5-6).​

Oz

The problem I have seen with regard to debate is what people's idea of a debate is. I was never involved with debates but in virtually every one that I have witnessed from political to otherwise the primary focus that opponents seem to work towards is to score points against each other. Someone states a position and the opponents tries his/her best to find errors and ways to twist what is said to mean something that was not meant. This tactic then puts the opponent on the defensive and from a debating point of view that is an advantage for the one on the offensive. This then creates an atmosphere that is no longer edifying.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't expect everyone to be exactly like me...I also don't expect everyone to have the same motives I do.
I think that someone coming here to ask questions and seek knowledge is a great reason to visit and stay. Rhoze does and she finds the answers to very complicated questions. (I can't help but poke fun at my friends)
She also makes great friendships along the way.

But I'm also acutely aware that any questions I might have are not going to be found in any forum. (JANES magazine maybe a source...but maybe not)
Mine are way beyond any unending osas discussion (that resembles a war) or current spiritual gifts discussion.

But that isn't to say that the basics can't be discovered here by many. Most people have no clue who God is. I would prefer that those with questions come here and discern what we offer. Those sorts who truly seek answers aren't looking to start us going to war with each other.

John,
I must say that I believe OSAS is a VERY important belief.
I can't even imagine believing that we will be saved NO MATTER WHAT.

There seems to be two views about this:
One is that we will NEVER WANT to leave God.
I can live with this one even though I know persons that have left the faith. The easy explanation is that they were never saved to begin with....I don't agree with this. I've posted youtube interviews with former believers and the reply is to just not answer to them.

The other POV is that even is we live A LIFE OF SIN (not just sin) we will never lose our salvation. This is a lie of easy believism, or hyper grace as it's called, and can be very damaging to a new Christian.

I will always address those that believe in OSAS.

Is that a debate?
Is that looking for the truth?

I got an idea...
How about DESCRIBING what DEBATE means in the TOS??

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus is very personal with each one of us. As such He doesn't approach everyone exactly the same because we are all individuals with different personalities and perspective. As a result we all view Jesus differently. Not that the truth is relative...not in the least. But everyone is at a different place in their walk.

OK! I think we all know this.

So what if someone believes a lie...
It's OK to let them go on believing it even though it's wrong?

The truth will make us free...not lies.