Is the Soul Real? A Neurosurgeon Makes the Case [Sean McDowell Show]

[Alfred Persson]

I make no theories, you do. A soul is biblically defined as a LIVING BEING, those in apostle John's vision are the great multitude dressed in this same robe, worshipping God in heaven. God is the God of the living, not the dead.

Have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. (Matt. 22:31-32)
For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? (Ps. 6:5)

The Scripture reads "under the altar the souls", not "spirits" as your theories about soul and spirit require.

Your unscriptural theory is thus rejected. And neither of your "proof texts" contain the word "spirits."

Therefore, these scriptures prove your unscriptural theories are wrong according to the Scriptures.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The Scripture reads "under the altar the souls", not "spirits" as your theories about soul and spirit require.

Your unscriptural theory is thus rejected. And neither of your "proof texts" contain the word "spirits."

Therefore, these scriptures prove your unscriptural theories are wrong according to the Scriptures.

This is nothing but a strawman. I've never said those are "spirits" under the alter. Spirit can't put on a white robe, only a body can. And I'm pretty sure neither an abstract thought or consciousness can put on this white robe.

And again, I make no theories, you do, as long as you view "soul" as a separate entity.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is nothing but a strawman. I've never said those are "spirits" under the alter. Spirit can't put on a white robe, only a body can. And I'm pretty sure neither an abstract thought or consciousness can put on this white robe.

And again, I make no theories, you do, as long as you view "soul" as a separate entity.

John was "in the Spirit" watching a vision about martyrs under the altar. The white robe is figurative for a temporary covering until their resurrection, the resurrection of the body.

Therefore, "souls" contradicts your materialistic theories about soul and spirit.

Just as a person in a tent is NOT the tent, so also the soul in the body is not the body.

The "building from God" is our resurrection body like Christ's resurrection body, it is "heavenly" (immortal, infused with life giving Spirit), not mortal (corruptible) like the bodies we now have:

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. (2 Cor. 5:1-5)

God will clothe us with that body when we are resurrected. Just as we (our souls) are not the tent (body, clothing), so also your materialistic secular theories about soul and body fail the test of scripture.

 

[Free]

Just going to leave this here:

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

John was "in the Spirit" watching a vision about martyrs under the altar. The white robe is figurative for a temporary covering until their resurrection, the resurrection of the body.

Therefore, "souls" contradicts your materialistic theories about soul and spirit.

No, the white robe is a symbol of righteousness, and it's NOT temporary, they're still wearing it in the next chapter, they're even waving palm branches in their worship. Besides, John was in HEAVEN, not Hades! Scripture means what it means, it contradicts your gnostic theories about disembodied ghostly entities.

Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. (Rev. 4:2)
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” (Rev. 7:9)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Just as a person in a tent is NOT the tent, so also the soul in the body is not the body.

Soul is not "in" the body, the body BECOMES a soul. The word of God contradicts your gnosticism.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man BECAME a living being (soul, nephesh, psyche). (Gen. 2:7)

God will clothe us with that body when we are resurrected. Just as we (our souls) are not the tent (body, clothing), so also your materialistic secular theories about soul and body fail the test of scripture.

"We" as souls are spirits in earthly bodies, i.e. tent, clothing, when the body's dead, the spirit is released, not the soul, because soul is a status of LIVING BEING, not an entity.

And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last. (Lk. 23:46)
And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Acts. 7:59-60)

If I'm materialistic, then the Apostle's Creed, the core Christian doctrine must be materialistic, 'cause the last time I checked, it teaches resurrection of the BODY, not "eternality of the soul". In these verses above, SPIRIT was released upon death, not soul, that rebukes your gnosticistic view,

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Just going to leave this here:

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them (first death). And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev. 20:13-24)

 

[Free]

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them (first death). And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev. 20:13-24)

Ok.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them (first death). And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev. 20:13-24)

What principle of interpretation permits ignoring our Lord's teaching that body and soul are separate, can have separate fates---that humans can kill the body, but not the soul?

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Soul is not "in" the body, the body BECOMES a soul. The word of God contradicts your gnosticism.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man BECAME a living being (soul, nephesh, psyche). (Gen. 2:7)

"We" as souls are spirits in earthly bodies, i.e. tent, clothing, when the body's dead, the spirit is released, not the soul, because soul is a status of LIVING BEING, not an entity.

And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last. (Lk. 23:46)
And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Acts. 7:59-60)

If I'm materialistic, then the Apostle's Creed, the core Christian doctrine must be materialistic, 'cause the last time I checked, it teaches resurrection of the BODY, not "eternality of the soul". In these verses above, SPIRIT was released upon death, not soul, that rebukes your gnosticistic view,

That theory ignores Jesus' teaching, the elementary deduction body and soul are different.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)

1) Body can be killed by humans; Soul cannot be killed by humans
2) God can destroy BOTH soul and body in hell; Therefore, grammatically impossible they are the same thing.

Labeling this "gnostic" seems to convince you more than Jesus our Teacher. Nothing in Jesus' words is "gnostic", He never said the soul seeks liberation from the body. Christians don't believe this dichotomy of body and soul teaches gnostic ideas about salvation through knowledge, feeing soul and body. We believe in the resurrection:

14 "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.
15 "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. (Acts 24:14-15 NKJ)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What principle of interpretation permits ignoring our Lord's teaching that body and soul are separate, can have separate fates---that humans can kill the body, but not the soul?

Human can't, God can, Rev. 20:13-14. Where do you read soul as a separate entity, when the text plainly says man BECAME a soul? Where's the judgement of the "soul" in Rev. 20:13-14, or anywhere in Rev. 20? You're the one ignoring the scripture, not me.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

1) Body can be killed by humans; Soul cannot be killed by humans
2) God can destroy BOTH soul and body in hell; Therefore, grammatically impossible they are the same thing.

No they're not, destruction of the body is the first death, destruction of both is the second death. Unbelievers will be resurrection to face the white throne judgement, says not me, but prophet Daniel.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan. 12:2)

Labeling this "gnostic" seems to convince you more than Jesus our Teacher. Nothing in Jesus' words is "gnostic", He never said the soul seeks liberation from the body. Christians don't believe this dichotomy of body and soul teaches gnostic ideas about salvation through knowledge, feeing soul and body. We believe in the resurrection:

No you don't, you're promoting gnosticism as long as you deny the plain text in Gen. 2:7 by conflating soul with spirit. Soul is the status of "living being", period. If you cling to any other definition, you've deviated from the scripture, for which you deserve the label "gnostic".

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What principle of interpretation permits ignoring our Lord's teaching that body and soul are separate, can have separate fates---that humans can kill the body, but not the soul?

Where is this teaching that "body and soul are separate", when you posted in bold text that BOTH body and soul can be destroyed in hell - not just soul, after the destruction of the body? How are body and soul lumped together in this teaching, if they are supposed to be "separate"?

 

[Free]

Where is this teaching that "body and soul are separate", when you posted in bold text that BOTH body and soul can be destroyed in hell - not just soul, after the destruction of the body? How are body and soul lumped together in this teaching, if they are supposed to be "separate"?

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)

You will notice that humans can "kill the body but cannot kill the soul." Basic reasoning tells us that if the body, the physical, can be killed by people, but the soul cannot be killed by people, then the soul is not physical and survives the death of the body. They can only be two separate things. You will also notice that only God can "destroy both soul and body in hell." Again, basic reasoning tells us that when "both and" are used, two distinct things are being mentioned.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Where is this teaching that "body and soul are separate", when you posted in bold text that BOTH body and soul can be destroyed in hell - not just soul, after the destruction of the body? How are body and soul lumped together in this teaching, if they are supposed to be "separate"?

To deduce from Matthew 10:28 that Jesus taught the body and soul are separate and distinct, you can follow a clear, elementary logical process based on the structure and meaning of the verse. Here's the step-by-step reasoning:

---

Verse (ESV):​

“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

---

Elementary Deduction:​

1. Two Entities Mentioned:
   
   • Jesus refers to "body" and "soul" as two different things.
   • If they were the same, there would be no need to distinguish between them.
2. Different Outcomes Possible:
   
   • Humans can kill the body, but not the soul.
   • That means it's possible for the body to be destroyed while the soul remains intact — showing separate existence or properties.
3. Both Can Be Destroyed Separately or Together:
   
   • God (or the one who has ultimate authority) can destroy both soul and body — suggesting they can each be acted upon independently.
4. Logical Inference:
   
   • If A (body) can be destroyed without affecting B (soul), and A and B can also both be destroyed, then A ≠ B.
   • Therefore, soul ≠ body — they are distinct.

---

Conclusion:​

From this verse, we can deduce that:

• Jesus treats body and soul as distinct components of a human person.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Where is this teaching that "body and soul are separate", when you posted in bold text that BOTH body and soul can be destroyed in hell - not just soul, after the destruction of the body? How are body and soul lumped together in this teaching, if they are supposed to be "separate"?

Being "lumped together" implies two different objects. You can't "lump together" one object.

Confirming this, "Both" would not exist in this verse, because "both" implies two separate things:

“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

To illustrate. Fear the accident that can destroy both Driver and Car in flaming fire.

Clearly, the Driver and Car are separate things even though both are destroyed by the same fire, "lumped together".

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (ESV)

You will notice that humans can "kill the body but cannot kill the soul." Basic reasoning tells us that if the body, the physical, can be killed by people, but the soul cannot be killed by people, then the soul is not physical and survives the death of the body. They can only be two separate things. You will also notice that only God can "destroy both soul and body in hell." Again, basic reasoning tells us that when "both and" are used, two distinct things are being mentioned.

Your "basic reasoning" is not biblical. Gen. 2:7 and Rev. 11:11 show that the soul is not a separate entity distinct from the body, but what the body BECOMES of when God breathes life into it; Dan. 12:2 also prophesizes that both believers and UNbelievers will be resurrected, therefore Matt. 10:28 doesn't say "who can destroy the soul in hell", but BOTH body and soul. This is a reference of the second death where not only the body, but the soul is killed as well. All my interpretation and understanding are firmly rooted in the bible itself, yours and Alfred's, however, are rooted in gnosticism, that the body is a "prison for the soul".

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

To deduce from Matthew 10:28 that Jesus taught the body and soul are separate and distinct, you can follow a clear, elementary logical process based on the structure and meaning of the verse. Here's the step-by-step reasoning:

Again, your reasonsing is unbiblical, it contradicts the definition of soul in Gen. 2:7. There was no such separation upon Jesus's death - or Stephen's.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Being "lumped together" implies two different objects. You can't "lump together" one object.

Except there's only ONE destruction - not destruction of the body and destruction of the soul separately.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Except there's only ONE destruction - not destruction of the body and destruction of the soul separately.

Prove "both lumped together" can refer to "one thing" because "there's only ONE destruction".

Produce examples, analogies. Compose sentences where that happens and it remains grammatically correct.