Is the Soul Real? A Neurosurgeon Makes the Case [Sean McDowell Show]

[Free]

Answer mine, then I'll answer yours.

Games like this, beyond showing a lack of maturity, are disrespectful and have no place in a debate or discussion. I sure hope you don't do this to any friends or relatives you have.

I asked you some questions. Please answer them or feel free to leave the discussion to those willing to be respectful.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Games like this, beyond showing a lack of maturity, are disrespectful and have no place in a debate or discussion. I sure hope you don't do this to any friends or relatives you have.

I asked you some questions. Please answer them or feel free to leave the discussion to those willing to be respectful.

I have no intention of playing games, I've already answered you, go check the previous posts.

 

[Alfred Persson]

God the Son came in the FLESH, His dual nature are of his human body and godly spirit, there is no "human spirit", what's distinct from his human nature is his godly nature, which came from the Holy Spirit.

We have argued this before, and couldn't agree. Lets consult with an "impartial" expositor named "COPILOT", who will logically address this subject, based upon 1 Thessalonians 5:23

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23 NKJ)

Logically, based on **1 Thessalonians 5:23** to demonstrate the distinction between **body, soul, and spirit** could be structured as follows:

### **Major Premise**
Whatever Scripture explicitly distinguishes as separate entities must be understood as distinct in nature.

### **Minor Premise**
1 Thessalonians 5:23 explicitly lists **spirit, soul, and body** as separate components of human existence.

### **Conclusion**
Therefore, Scripture teaches that **spirit, soul, and body** are distinct from each other.

#### **Supporting Biblical Reasoning**
- **Grammatical Structure**: The verse does not conflate these terms but rather **enumerates** them separately, implying distinct aspects of human nature.
- **Functional Differences**:
- **Body**: The physical vessel that interacts with the material world.
- **Soul**: The seat of emotions, intellect, and personality.
- **Spirit**: The part of man that communes with God (cf. **John 4:24**, **Romans 8:16**).
- **Other Scriptural Support**:
- **Hebrews 4:12**: "For the word of God is living and powerful... piercing even to the division of **soul and spirit**, and of joints and marrow..."
- **Matthew 10:28**: "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul..."

This verse, along with others, affirms that **body, soul, and spirit** are distinct components of human existence, each serving a unique function in relation to God and creation.

PS: Simply put, if "spirit" isn't separate and distinct from the flesh, grammatically Paul could not separate them as he does, here:

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23 NKJ)

Rather, he would have written: "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you; may your body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23 NKJ)

Then Paul's prayer is forever unfulfilled, no one's body was preserved who heard him preach this sermon.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Are you seriously saying that Matt. 10:28 is speaking of a separation of body and soul? If so, explain to me why it doesn't say "but rather fear Him who is able to destroy the soul as well in hell." If the soul is distinct from the body, it's only logically that the soul should be destroyed separately in hell - after the death of the body, right? But no, the verse actually says, "but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Why, then, are body and soul lumped together here? Why does the body have to the killed again? Wasn't the body already killed? You audaciously claimed you had your reason and logic "inspired by God", yet you have totally ignored the second part of the verse, and you opted to ad homenem against me when I pointed out that it was a reference of Dan. 12:2.

Gehenna is not hades. In Matthew 10:28 the Greek reads γέεννα (1067 geenna).

One ends up in Hades immediately after physical death. One is destroyed in Gehenna after their Judgment, after being physically raised up and condemned, cast into the lake of fire.

The wicked will be raised up in abominable bodies reeking of corruption, their human souls trapped within them. They can only weep and gnash their teeth, as they burn in Gehenna fire that cannot be quenched, piled high in heaps like garbage:

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell (1067 γέεννα geenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell (1067 γέεννα geenna), into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell(1067 γέεννα geenna) fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(Mk. 9:43-48 KJV)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

This verse, along with others, affirms that **body, soul, and spirit** are distinct components of human existence, each serving a unique function in relation to God and creation.

All of these premises are false, the only biblical formula is laid out in Gen. 2:7 - body (dust of the ground) + spirit (breath of God) = soul (living being). This is the one and only true definition for soul, which is the premise for all mentions of "soul" in the bible, any other conclusion from your own logic and reasoning is invalid.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The wicked will be raised up in abominable bodies reeking of corruption, their human souls trapped within them. They can only weep and gnash their teeth, as they burn in Gehenna fire that cannot be quenched, piled high in heaps like garbage:

Soul is not a "ghost" or "essence" or "human spirit" trapped in a skin suit, that's gnosticism, you're still under its influence.

 

[Alfred Persson]

All of these premises are false, the only biblical formula is laid out in Gen. 2:7 - body (dust of the ground) + spirit (breath of God) = soul (living being). This is the one and only true definition for soul, which is the premise for all mentions of "soul" in the bible, any other conclusion from your own logic and reasoning is invalid.

Your "rule of interpretation", that only Genesis 2:7 is material on this question, has no foundation anywhere, including your own doctrines. When you explain you ideas about other matters, you cite other bible texts, not just one...and certainly not just Genesis 2:7.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Soul is not a "ghost" or "essence" or "human spirit" trapped in a skin suit, that's gnosticism, you're still under its influence.

Never said the soul is trapped in a skin suit, that isn't what I believe.

There is a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous:

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. (Acts 24:14-15 KJV)

The righteous given resurrection bodies that shine like the stars in heaven, the wicked are raised up in "shameful flesh":

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
(Dan. 12:2-3 KJV)

Hades gives up the dead in them, the wicked are raised up in "abominations", flesh that causes them eternal shame, and then they are cast into Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, like garbage. Their dead bodies will burn in unquenchable fire, as the souls trapped within them experience the wrath of an offended Holy God:

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev. 20:11-15 KJV)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mk. 9:43-48 KJV)

This is just. Man was created in the image of God, which includes the glory of the human form (God often manifests Himself in it, and God the Son was incarnate in it). The wicked defiled this "Temple of God" for perverse pleasure.

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. (1 Cor. 3:17 KJV)

Therefore, God uses the very flesh they abused to enjoy sin, to communicate His Holy Wrath.

Those who destroyed the "Temple of God" with abominations, will be destroyed. They defiled the "image of God" in man.

Therefore, what once communicated unclean pleasure to the soul within them, now communicates the pure Holy Wrath of an Offended God.

Unlike the "Walking Dead", these corpses cannot walk, move to less tormenting regions of Gehenna. They are piled up in heaps, like burning garbage. They can only weep and gnash their teeth in response. Its called the "outer darkness" because they are blind, cannot see any light. They are dead, they will not rise, God has visited them in Judgment and destroyed them forever:

They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish. (Isa. 26:14 KJV)

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:23-24 KJV)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Your "rule of interpretation", that only Genesis 2:7 is material on this question, has no foundation anywhere, including your own doctrines. When you explain you ideas about other matters, you cite other bible texts, not just one...and certainly not just Genesis 2:7.

Gen. 2:7 requires no foundation because it IS the foundation for the definition of life. Paul quoted it in his interpretation of resurrection - "And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Cor. 15:45) Other bible texts pertaining soul and resurrection must be based on the bible's own definitions of soul and resurrection, not any man made doctrine.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Hades gives up the dead in them, the wicked are raised up in "abominations", flesh that causes them eternal shame, and then they are cast into Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, like garbage. Their dead bodies will burn in unquenchable fire, as the souls trapped within them experience the wrath of an offended Holy God:

Where exactly is the "soul trapped within the flesh" in the verses below? Why would you say it if you don't believe it? If there's anything trapped within the flesh, it's the SPIRIT, evil spirit, the kind which Jesus cast out and false followers claimed they have cast out, not soul. Upon the first death, spirit is merely released from the dead body, it is in this second death that it suffers forever.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Where exactly is the "soul trapped within the flesh" in the verses below? Why would you say it if you don't believe it? If there's anything trapped within the flesh, it's the SPIRIT, evil spirit, the kind which Jesus cast out and false followers claimed they have cast out, not soul. Upon the first death, spirit is merely released from the dead body, it is in this second death that it suffers forever.

Unlike you, I carefully distinguish between "spirits" (disembodied demons and hybrid human-elohim), the human spirit or soul "person", and the "spirit" that animates body and immaterial soul. Your views on this arise from a fundamental fallacy, "hasty generalization". Many words have more than one reference, and "spirit" is one of them. "Gas" is another. It could refer to gasoline, gas in the atmosphere, flatulence etc.

"Spirits of devils (demons)" implies these devils were once corporeal, but now they are immaterial spirits.

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (Rev. 16:14 KJV)

Angels are corporeal, not spirits as this verse proves:

8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. (Acts 23:8 KJV)

Your fallacy is contradicted by the details revealed in scripture. For example, the resurrection body Christians are raised up in, are flesh (SOMA)....but they infused with immortal life giving spirit. Hence, Paul called this SOMA PNEUMATIKON σῶμα πνευματικόν, "spiritual bodies":

σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἐγείρεται σῶμα πνευματικόν. Ἔστιν σῶμα ψυχικόν, καὶ ἔστιν σῶμα πνευματικόν. (1 Cor. 15:44 BYZ)

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (1 Cor. 15:44 KJV)

Just as a "spiritual man" is not a ghost, neither is a "spiritual body" a ghost.

Unlike the resurrection flesh of the wicked, the rights are infused with immortal spirit animating them. The wicked are "dead", corpses:

They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish. (Isa. 26:14 KJV)

They are hideous, like the "Walking Dead" or worse, but unable to move because they have no animating spirit. That returned to the true God when they first died.

Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
(Eccl. 12:7 NKJ)

Souls that lose the animating spirit become "shades" of their former selves, weak and powerless, waiting in Sheol for their resurrection:

9 Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come, it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.
10 All of them will speak and say to you: `You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!' (Isa. 14:9-10 RSV)

They are still "souls", but weak as a shadow.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Unlike you, I carefully distinguish between "spirits" (disembodied demons and hybrid human-elohim), the human spirit or soul "person", and the "spirit" that animates body and immaterial soul. Your views on this arise from a fundamental fallacy, "hasty generalization". Many words have more than one reference, and "spirit" is one of them. "Gas" is another. It could refer to gasoline, gas in the atmosphere, flatulence etc.

This is all wild speculation. Human has no spirit of its own, it's dust formed from ground, the what you call "human spirit" is the animating life-giving breath from God, what you call "immaterial soul" is the living STATUS of the body.

As for demonic spirits, they come and go at their own will, God didn't breathe any of them into anybody, and I've never implied so.

When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation. (Matt. 12:43-45)

Angels are corporeal, not spirits as this verse proves:

What kind of "angel"? This word in Greek simply means "messenger", which could be any being who is tasked to deliver a message from God, not necessarily must it be that mythical winged majestic creature. In John's vision, an angel equated himself with John and the prophets as a "fellow servant".

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me ... (Rev. 21:9) Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” (Rev. 22:9)

Also, corporeal in what body? According to the bible, not me, or any doctrine, dictionary or philosophy, there're celestrial bodies suitable for heavenly abode, and it's different from terrestrial bodies.

There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (1 Cor. 15:40)

Therefore, you're the one who's guilty of hasty generalization.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Souls that lose the animating spirit become "shades" of their former selves, weak and powerless, waiting in Sheol for their resurrection:

9 Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come, it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.
10 All of them will speak and say to you: `You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!' (Isa. 14:9-10 RSV)

They are still "souls", but weak as a shadow.

The context of this passage is about judgement on the king of Babylon, the oppressor of Israel will his their powers be taken away, hence the "weak" part, as all are equal in death. It has nothing to do with the nature of soul, this passage is a mockery against the king of Babylon written in a poetic tone, in essence it's a PROVERB. You plucked it out to justify your own unbiblical philosophy.

That you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say ... (Is. 14:4)

 

[Alfred Persson]

The context of this passage is about judgement on the king of Babylon, the oppressor of Israel will his their powers be taken away, hence the "weak" part, as all are equal in death. It has nothing to do with the nature of soul, this passage is a mockery against the king of Babylon written in a poetic tone, in essence it's a PROVERB. You plucked it out to justify your own unbiblical philosophy.

That you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say ... (Is. 14:4)

Incorrect. The TAUNT against the King of Babylon occurs after God has broken the staff of the wicked (v. 5), and what is said DOES NOT FIT any "king of Babylon", but it does fit the Antichrist:

12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
13 You said in your heart, `I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High.'
15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit.
(Isa. 14:12-15 RSV)

The "King of the North" (Daniel 11) is the King of Babylon. Adonikam rebuilds Babylon in the end time, and then Gog and his forces from the North fulfill all the OT prophecies about Babylon being utterly destroyed, which thus far have not been fulfilled.

The ten kings supporting Adonikam destroyed the Religious Harlot Babylon the Great when he morphed from Chancellor Adonikam False Christ Man of Sin into the Beast Son of Destruction at "mid-week" (2 Thess. 2:3-4; Rev. 13:1-5).

Russia and surrounding countries (Gog and Magog) oppose the NWO and destroy with fire the "eighth king/kingdom of the seven" (Rev. 17:11), the rebuilt city of Babylon that was "healed from its death wound" by fallen angel technology, "rising from the abyss" of spiritism (Rev. 17:8; 9:1-3).

Rebuilt Babylon goes off into total destruction fulfilling OT prophecy (Jer. 50:3, 13, 39-40; 51:29; Rev. 18:2-10). Forces from her North (Jer. 50:41-42; 51:47-48) destroy her utterly, but it is God's judgment against her (Rev. 17:16-17; 18:8; Isa. 13:19-22; Jer. 51:63-64; Rev. 18:21) that caused this.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is all wild speculation. Human has no spirit of its own, it's dust formed from ground, the what you call "human spirit" is the animating life-giving breath from God, what you call "immaterial soul" is the living STATUS of the body.

As for demonic spirits, they come and go at their own will, God didn't breathe any of them into anybody, and I've never implied so.

When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation. (Matt. 12:43-45)

What kind of "angel"? This word in Greek simply means "messenger", which could be any being who is tasked to deliver a message from God, not necessarily must it be that mythical winged majestic creature. In John's vision, an angel equated himself with John and the prophets as a "fellow servant".

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me ... (Rev. 21:9) Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” (Rev. 22:9)

Also, corporeal in what body? According to the bible, not me, or any doctrine, dictionary or philosophy, there're celestrial bodies suitable for heavenly abode, and it's different from terrestrial bodies.

There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (1 Cor. 15:40)

Therefore, you're the one who's guilty of hasty generalization.

In post #103 I appealed to an "impartial, unbiased" interpreter: "Copilot". It documented your theories about body and spirit are logically unsound, if you believe the Bible that is:

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23 NKJ)

It does not say may your flesh be preserved, therefore you are wrong.

 

[Free]

I have no intention of playing games,

Then stop, because you did it again.

I've already answered you, go check the previous posts.

No, you didn't. I first asked you in POST #84, but you decided to play games instead of answering.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Incorrect. The TAUNT against the King of Babylon occurs after God has broken the staff of the wicked (v. 5), and what is said DOES NOT FIT any "king of Babylon", but it does fit the Antichrist:

Again you're ignoring the context of Babylonian captivity. At the very beginning of this chapter, it is prophesied that Israel will rule over their oppressors who had taken Israel captive, the passage of 14:12-15 does fit the king of Babylon as a comparison between the king of Babylon and Satan.

Then people will take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them for servants and maids in the land of the Lord; they will take them captive whose captives they were, and rule over their oppressors. (Is. 14:2)

The "King of the North" (Daniel 11) is the King of Babylon. Adonikam rebuilds Babylon in the end time, and then Gog and his forces from the North fulfill all the OT prophecies about Babylon being utterly destroyed, which thus far have not been fulfilled.

As a matter of fact, Babylon was already doomed during Daniel's lifetime, the clash between the northern and southern king is another prophecy for another time.

God has numbered your kingdom, and finished it; TEKEL: You have been weighed in the balances, and found wanting; PERES: Your kingdom has been divided, and given to the Medes and Persians. (Dan. 5:26-27)

 That very night Belshazzar, king of the Chaldeans, was slain. And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old. (Dan. 5:30-31)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

In post #103 I appealed to an "impartial, unbiased" interpreter: "Copilot". It documented your theories about body and spirit are logically unsound, if you believe the Bible that is:

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23 NKJ)

It does not say may your flesh be preserved, therefore you are wrong.

The only "impartial, unbiased" interpreter is the bible ITSELF, not any theories, doctrines or philosophies. 1 Thess. 5:23 refers to the resurrection of the saints, they are preserved blameless as they're RESURRECTED, therefore they're counted as "souls", i.e. LIVING beings; in contrast, the rest are NOT resurrected, they remain dead until the millennial kingdom expires, they are NOT preserved blameless. Again you're wrong for taking it out of context.

I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Rev. 20:4-5)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Then stop, because you did it again.

How about you stop bothering?

No, you didn't. I first asked you in POST #84, but you decided to play games instead of answering.

I've already answered you, Rev. 20:14 and Dan. 12:2. I ain't playing games, you are.

 

[Free]

How about you stop bothering?

I've already answered you, Rev. 20:14 and Dan. 12:2. I ain't playing games, you are.

You certainly did not answer my questions. There is nothing left to say.