Proof of Ancient Jewish Existence in Israel

[Tony Hyman]

I would say that the land belongs to no person.It belongs to God as in Leviticus 25 :23-25.This is what God Joshua and the Isrealites took control of Canaan 23.our land must not be sold, because you do not own it;it belongs to God, and you are like foreigners who are allowed to make use of it".24 When land is sold, the right of the original owner to buy it back must be recognized.25. If an Israelite becomes poor and is forced to sell his land , his closest relative is to buy it back.
We see that the land was to stay within the family context as God freely gace the Lnds to the different tribes.
We also find practical application of this law in 1 Kings 21 1-3 where Naboth was forbidden sell his land to King Ahab no matter what the price or awsome deals made"I inherited this vinyard from my ancestors " Naboth replied."The Lord forbid that I should let you have it!"T.E.V.

So it appears with all respect that any person who has a problem with these title deeds as instructed by God himself, had better take the matter up with God on a personal level.No exeptions kings or Presidents as shown in the case of King Ahab in Zezreel .
So I cant see where this "Jewish squatter" rhetoric fits in according to the Will and Word of God.

 

[Isambard]

Kind of an unusual way of introducing yourself to the forum there Isambard attacking the Hebrews isn't very neighborly..God gave them that land..

Hello turnorburn, I obviously understand your 'God gave them that land' comment but the kingdoms, empires and caliphates who owned that land after the Jewish kingdom (14 empires for 3 thousand years) would all also have claimed that 'god gave us this land'. My point, perhaps not made well enough, was that the history of that area is nothing like as simple as .... "this is Israel". It is far, far more complicated and their possession of that land, 'that God gave them', was very brief in historical terms. I really don't think most people understand that. Most people seem to have a complete misconception of how long-lived the Kingdom of Israel was.

I am certainly not attacking the Jews or anyone else, apart maybe from the UN, I have absolutely nothing against Jews, Arabs, Hindus, Muslims, or any other peaceful religion. All I am against is unfairness in all its forms and if I was a Palestinian, ejected from my home by force, I am sure I would feel more than a little aggrieved.

 

[Isambard]

The State of Israel was created by France and England, by force remember, in 1948

Actually, it was done by the UN, not the British or French.

I didn't realise I had to be so precise. I'm going to have to be more careful.

The (British) Balfour Declaration in 1917 proposed the establishment of a Jewish State in Palestine. By the 1920s Britain was ruling Palestine by force of arms with the agreement of The League of Nations (The British Mandate). France was meanwhile mopping up in Syria and ruling there. Between the British and the French (and the Americans) much of the middle East was carved up with new borders and the creation of new countries such as Iraq.

You are quite right when you say that the UN eventually recognised the New State of Israel in 1947 but by that point Britain was pretty desperate to get out. They had tried to keep peace between the Jews and the Arabs but were being attacked by both sides. The de-facto State of Israel was in existence many years before that and it was that de-facto State with all its borders and administration which was handed over by the British to the fledgling State of Israel. The following day, once the British were no longer responsible, Israel was invaded. I hope that is accurate enough this time ;) I do realise that I have taken a number of short-cuts again.

just remember that Jesus was from 'Palestinium', not from Israel.

No he wasn't. He was from Judea. The name "Palestine" (or any other form of the same name) wasn't used for that region during Christ's lifetime.

The TOG
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I stand corrected; thank you. As you indicate, the name was changed by the Romans from 'Judea Province' to 'Palestinium Province' in about 130AD. It was not 'Israel' however - which was my main point. It had not been 'Israel' for a very long time.

I think the problem is that, when we read the bible, some people get a completely false impression of historical continuity. I was simply trying to put things in perspective, not trying or wishing to offend anyone.

 

[turnorburn]

Isambard said

I think the problem is that, when we read the bible, some people get a completely false impression of historical continuity. I was simply trying to put things in perspective, not trying or wishing to offend anyone.

I must say your certainly batting a 1000 first the Hebrews now my bible..

tob

 

[TOG]

I think the problem is that, when we read the bible, some people get a completely false impression of historical continuity.

If we want historical continuity, then we have to get our history right. Let's take another look at your list.

The Kingdom of Egypt.
The Hittite Empire
The Kingdom of Israel
The Assyrian Empire
The Babylonian Empire
The Persian Empire
The Macedonia Empire
The Roman Empire
The Sassanid Empire
The Caliphate
The Seljuk Empire
The Crusader kingdoms
The Saladin Empire
The Mongul Empire (just about)
The Ottoman Empire
The Europeam Colonials
​

As you can see by the emphasis I've added, most of the entities on the list are empires (11 of 16). Let's look at the others, and then get back to the empires later.

The Kingdom of Egypt.
According to Wikipedia, this isn't correct.

The Kingdom of Egypt (Arabic: المملكة المصرية‎; Egyptian Arabic: المملكه المصريه Al-Mamlakah Al-Misriyyah, "the Egyptian Kingdom") was the independent Egyptian state established under the Muhammad Ali Dynasty in 1922 following the recognition of Egyptian independence by the United Kingdom.

I think you are probably referring to the Egyptian Empire, which did indeed rule over the area today known as Israel. This picture shows the greatest extent of the Egyptian Empire

View attachment 4723

Excluding empires, the next item on the list is the Kingdom of Israel. Since nobody here is casting doubt on it, I won't take too much space for it here.

Next on the list (excluding empires) is the Caliphate. There have been a number of these, but if you look at Wikipedia under Islamic Empire (disambiguation), the first caliphate on the list is the Umayyad Caliphate. If we look at that article, we that it did rule over what today is known as Israel.

View attachment 4724

But look at what more it says (emphasis by TOG)

At its greatest extent, the Umayyad Caliphate covered 5.79 million square miles (15,000,000 km²), making it the largest empire the world had yet seen, and the fifth largest ever to exist.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Blankinship_7-0"></sup>

The Caliphate was also an empire. Next on the list is the Crusader Kingdoms. On this map we see what the Crusader Kingdoms looked like in about 1140

View attachment 4725

An area that covers slightly more than today's Israel is here labeled "The Kingdom of Jerusalem".

The last item on the list that isn't listed as an empire is the European Colonials. Although they need not be empires, colonial powers have one thing in common with empires. Both rule over other states and territories. So, if we replace the Kingdom of Egypt with the Egyptian Empire, the Caliphate with Islamic Empire and realize that colonies are ruled by other powers, then all that is left that isn't being ruled by someone else is

• The Kingdom of Israel
• The Crusader Kingdoms
• The State of Israel

The only independent kingdoms / countries that have existed in this area are two Jewish states and one Christian state. Other than those, it has been ruled by empires and colonial powers. No such thing as a Palestinian state has ever existed until the 20th century. After WWII, two Palestinian states were established - Jordan and Israel.

The TOG
​

 

[Isambard]

Isambard said

I think the problem is that, when we read the bible, some people get a completely false impression of historical continuity. I was simply trying to put things in perspective, not trying or wishing to offend anyone.

I must say your certainly batting a 1000 first the Hebrews now my bible..

tob

I'm afraid I don't understand your point or perhaps your metaphor. Are you saying that there was continuity of Israel over the millenia?

I don't think the bible says anything on the subject, it is just something that most people seem to falsely assume.

 

[TOG]

Are you saying that there was continuity of Israel over the milleni

There wasn't continuity of government of the Jews, but there wasn't continuity of Arab government either. But, for some reason, when people (not just you) who support the Palestinians talk about these things, it's the continuity of government that matters for the Jews, but the continuity of the population that matters for the Arabs. A concept closely related to continuity is consistency. So, let's get some of that too. Which is it that matters, the government or the people who have lived in the area? If it's the government, then Arabs have no more claim on the land than do the Jews, and since the Arabs already rule lands hundreds, if not thousands of times bigger than Israel, it would seem logical to let the Jews have this relatively tiny piece of land for their own. But if what matters is who has lived in the area throughout history, then there have been Jews living in what today is Israel for the past 3,500 years. They were a majority from shortly after they settled there in around 1500 BC until at least the first century AD. They were the majority in Jerusalem from the time they settled there until they were ejected by force by the Arabs in the early 20th century.

The TOG
​

 

[Isambard]

Hello TOG, unfortunately your links did not work - so I may have ended up with the wrong impression of your post.

The Kingdom of Egypt.
According to Wikipedia, this isn't correct.

Actually, your Wikipedia quote makes it perfectly clear that it was called the 'Kingdom of Egypt' and not the 'Egyptian Empire'. Take another look.

If we also use Wikipedia to look up 'Ancient Egypt', which may be what you meant to do, we get the same monarchs - Kings not Emperors. Remember the 'Valley of the Kings'.

Ancient Egypt was an ancient civilization of Northeastern Africa, concentrated along the lower reaches of the Nile River in what is now the modern country of Egypt. Egyptian civilization coalesced around 3150 BC (according to conventional Egyptian chronology)[1] with the political unification of Upper and Lower Egypt under the first pharaoh.[2] The history of ancient Egypt occurred in a series of stable Kingdoms, separated by periods of relative instability known as Intermediate Periods: the Old Kingdom of the Early Bronze Age, the Middle Kingdom of the Middle Bronze Age and the New Kingdom of the Late Bronze Age.
Egypt reached the pinnacle of its power during the New Kingdom, in the Ramesside period where it rivalled the Hittite Empire, Assyrian Empire and Mitanni Empire, after which it entered a period of slow decline.

Excluding empires, the next item on the list is the Kingdom of Israel.

unnoWhy are you excluding empires? 'Empire' is only a word; a word that indicates the chosen title of the head of the victors. France is a good example; its last three names have been The 'Kingdom of France', 'The Empire of the French' and 'The French Republic' based purely on how it was governed, not on what it was doing. We don't talk about 'emperor' Hitler even though he briefly ruled most of Europe. As you point out, Egypt also expanded but that wasn't called an empire either.

To the people on the ground, the words empire, kingdom, caliphate, colonial, etc are of no interest - they all mean invasion, defeat and, quite likely, slaughter and ethnic cleansing too. You seemed to imply that an area occupied by an 'empire' allows that area to keep its name, its identity, its borders, its government, its towns and cities, etc but that is one hell of an assumption. The occupied people don't say, "Hurrah, its another empire, we'll be alright with them". In the case of Israel there were several diasporas (with varying effectiveness) which is precisely why Jews were and are spread all around Europe and latterly elsewhere.

..But look at what more it says (emphasis by TOG)

At its greatest extent, the Umayyad Caliphate covered 5.79 million square miles (15,000,000 km²), making it the largest empire the world had yet seen, and the fifth largest ever to exist.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-Blankinship_7-0"></sup>

Yes, it does seem, from your emphasis on the word empire, that you think it implies that any land occupied by that power automatically retains its identity. I'm afraid that is simply not the case. Countries, for want of a better term, are constantly changing. If you look at maps of Europe over the centuries, I think most people would be absolutely staggered at how many border changes there have been - thousands and thousands of changes. If we just consider them, instead of the East Mediterranean, which one out of those thousands of border changes should retain some 'right' over all the others?

My original point was questioning why people felt that The State of Israel had a greater right than anyone else. That sub-question seems now to be lost amid assumptions that I am insulting the Jews or any particular individual. I assure you that is not my intent. I am only interested in fairness - whatever that is.

EDIT: I nearly forgot to say that a Caliphate is simply that ruled by a Caliph. It is as misleading to call a large Caliphate an empire as it is to call American rule of other countries an empire.

 

[turnorburn]

Say Isambard is it fair to say you don't believe whats written in the bible, its safe to say no because your not alone, the world is calling foul play on the Hebrews because the world will always side with the devils lies. The Arabs believe their god gave that land to Ismael, if you don't know who Ismael is he was Abrahams other son..

tob

 

[Isambard]

But if what matters is who has lived in the area throughout history, then there have been Jews living in what today is Israel for the past 3,500 years. They were a majority from shortly after they settled there in around 1500 BC until at least the first century AD. They were the majority in Jerusalem from the time they settled there until they were ejected by force by the Arabs in the early 20th century.

What matters, I think, is living in peace together. That is pretty clearly what Jesus wanted.

I would be very interested to hear where you get your statistics bearing in mind the various expulsions and the absence of official records?

Can you also clarify exactly what expulsion of the Jews by Arabs that you have in mind?

Some Jews will undoubtedly have lived within the borders of 'Israel' continuously, even after they were meant all to have been expelled. Much of the time they have lived peacefully and in harmony with other religions under Persian, Arab and Ottoman rule. Unfortunately, the way that Ottoman land was eventually taken by force and carved up without reference to the current inhabitants continues to cause problems - Balkans, Iraq, Palestine.

The problem is that nothing stays the same and history is always far more complicated that we can know. I thought it would be simple to post a map of the Ottoman Empire but there are dozens of Ottoman maps, no two the same. What is perfectly clear however, from most of these maps, is that Palestine existed way before 1948.

 

[Isambard]

just remember that Jesus was from 'Palestinium', not from Israel.

No he wasn't. He was from Judea. The name "Palestine" (or any other form of the same name) wasn't used for that region during Christ's lifetime.

The TOG
​

The name Palestine most certainly was used. It appears in the bible several times. .

Do you know, with any accuracy, what the extent of Palestine was back then? Every map I look at seems to indicate that it was virtually the whole of the Eastern Mediterranean. Joel 3:4 also seems to confirm that.

I get the impression that Palestine included Iturea, Idumea, Trachonitis, Poenicia, Galilee, Samaria, Judea, Peria and Decapolis. Do you know if that is true?

Matthew 26:69 A servant girl came over and said to him, "You were one of those with Jesus the Galilean ..​

Jesus was of course from Galilee. Judea is much further South.;)


My point is still the same, He didn't come from Israel.

 

[TOG]

Why are you excluding empires?

Did you miss the part where I wrote...

Let's look at the others, and then get back to the empires later.

I admit that I didn't write as much about empires as I originally intended because the post was already long when I was getting around to it, but I did make the main point I had in mind. Empires (as well as the Caliphate and colonial powers you mentioned) are not comparable to independent countries or kingdoms. A kingdom or country is ruled by a government which has it's seat within the borders of the country in question (with the rare exception of exile governments during times of war or foreign occupation), while empires rule over other countries by a government that has it's seat outside of the ruled countries. In other words, it's a question of whether the people are ruling themselves or whether they are being ruled by a foreign power. The only cases of independent nations in the area in question have been either Jewish (ancient and modern Israel) or Christian (The Kingdom of Jerusalem). There has never been an independent Arab nation in the area. The "Palestinian people" are a fiction that was invented in 1967 for propaganda purposes. They have no more claim to the land than you or I.

The TOG
​

 

[TOG]

To the people on the ground, the words empire, kingdom, caliphate, colonial, etc are of no interest - they all mean invasion, defeat and, quite likely, slaughter and ethnic cleansing too.

Not quite. I think the citizens of the Kingdom of Norway, the Kingdom of Denmark, the Kingdom of Sweden and the Kingdom of the Netherlands among others would disagree with you.

Yes, it does seem, from your emphasis on the word empire, that you think it implies that any land occupied by that power automatically retains its identity. I'm afraid that is simply not the case.

No, I realize that sometimes the identity of a land incorporated into an empire loses it's identity. That wasn't my point. My point was that there had never been any indpendent Palestinian nation or people, as many today seem to believe. Thay say that the land belongs to the Palesitinians, as if they had ruled it for centuries, if not millenia. That isn't the case. The people living in that area didn't start identifying themselves as Palestinians until 1967, when the Palestinian people were invented for propaganda purposes.

The TOG
​

 

[TOG]

My original point was questioning why people felt that The State of Israel had a greater right than anyone else.

And my point was to answer that. The Jews have had an independent kingdom in the area in question. The Palestinians have never ruled that area. Nobody else is laying claim to it, so it seems to me that the only previous ruler of the land that is currently laying claim to it should have it.

The TOG
​

 

[TOG]

The name Palestine most certainly was used. It appears in the bible several times. .

Could you quote chapter and verse on that please? And remember that the modern concept of Palestinians isn't the same as the ancient Philestines. They never inhabited any area outside of approximately today's Gaza Strip.

Jesus was of course from Galilee. Judea is much further South.

Depends on how you look at it. He was born in Bethlehem, which was in Judea, but was raised in Nazareth, which was in Galilee.

The TOG
​

 

[Isambard]

Say Isambard is it fair to say you don't believe whats written in the bible..........tob

That is a huge question without a simple answer. Of course I believe a great deal of it but we all choose what to believe and what not to believe in the bible.

Can I ask you a couple of questions which are confusing me. I have noticed that a few people here, including you, refer to 'the Hebrews' rather than to 'the Jews'. Please understand that my Christian upbringing was severely restricted (see my original post) so I may be asking what appears to be a naive question. Related to that, Jesus apparently spoke Aramaic yet we don't refer to Him as one of 'the Aramaics'. Is there a group name for those who speak Aramaic? The term 'Hebrews' seems more appropriate for the people speaking Hebrew and their ancestors. Given the unknown ancestry of Mary and the fact that they didn't speak Hebrew, why would we call Jesus and any other Aramaic speaker a Hebrew?

The term Jew can mean those ethnically Jews (Hebrews) and also those who follow the Jewish religion. I presume those peoples speaking Aramaic when the Hebrews arrived, at some time in ancient history, took on the Jewish religion (more likely there was a merging). Jesus followed the Jewish religion and can therefore be called a Jew.

Sorry, I'm starting to ramble. My question is basically, why do you say Hebrew when you presumably mean all Jews?

 

[Isambard]

The name Palestine most certainly was used. It appears in the bible several times. .

Could you quote chapter and verse on that please?

OK

Joel 3:4 "Now what have you against me, Tyre and Sidon and all you ...
... Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts
of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ...

Jeremiah 47:1 This is the word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah ...
... The word of the Lord that came to Jeremias the prophet against
the people of Palestine, before Pharao took Gaza. ...

Ezekiel 16:57 before your wickedness was uncovered. Even so, you ...
... Before thy malice was laid open: as it is at this time, making thee a reproach of
the daughters of Syria, and of all the daughters of Palestine round about thee ...​

I hope that helps.

And remember that the modern concept of Palestinians isn't the same as the ancient Philestines. They never inhabited any area outside of approximately today's Gaza Strip.

Please don't mix up Philistia with Palestine! Gaza, the coast of Canaan, is certainly about right for the Philistines but that is very different from Palestine. Have a look back at the rabbi's map that I posted. Also, please note that the 'chapter and verse above includes geographical references from Philistia right up through Tyre & Sidon to Syria.

Jesus was of course from Galilee. Judea is much further South.

Depends on how you look at it. He was born in Bethlehem, which was in Judea, but was raised in Nazareth, which was in Galilee.

I think 'Jesus of Galilee' trips off the tongue more comfortably than 'Jesus of Judea'. Maybe you can start a new trend.

 

[TOG]

OK

Joel 3:4 "Now what have you against me, Tyre and Sidon and all you ...
... Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts
of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ...

Jeremiah 47:1 This is the word of the LORD that came to Jeremiah ...
... The word of the Lord that came to Jeremias the prophet against
the people of Palestine, before Pharao took Gaza. ...

Ezekiel 16:57 before your wickedness was uncovered. Even so, you ...
... Before thy malice was laid open: as it is at this time, making thee a reproach of
the daughters of Syria, and of all the daughters of Palestine round about thee ...​

I hope that helps.

Interesting. That's the first time I've seen a Bible verse that uses the word "Palestine". I haven't looked at all the verses you quoted, but I have checked out Joel 3:4 in every translation available at Bible Gateway. Four versions had "Palestine" in that verse:

• King James Version
• Authorized (King James) Version
• 21st Century King James Versioin
• Wycliffe Bible

39 versions, including the New King James Version, had "Philestia" or "Philestines". The Orthodox Jewish Bible had "Peleshet". Since I don't know enough Hebrew to know the proper translation of "Peleshet", I think I'll go with "Philistia".

Please don't mix up Philistia with Palestine!

I'm not. I just wanted to make sure you weren't, since I've seen many references to Philistia and the Philestines in the Bible, but had never run across any reference to Palestine. Probably because I don't use the only translation that has it.

The TOG​

 

[Isambard]

...Empires (as well as the Caliphate and colonial powers you mentioned) are not comparable to independent countries or kingdoms. A kingdom or country is ruled by a government which has it's seat within the borders of the country in question (with the rare exception of exile governments during times of war or foreign occupation), while empires rule over other countries by a government that has it's seat outside of the ruled countries. ...

Sorry TOG but that is a very misleading modern usage. When discussing history, we must use historical terms or we will end up talking about the 'Apple Empire'. You then go on to make huge assumptions about an imagined rigidity of countries being ruled over by others, be they empires, kingdom, caliphates, republics or colonial powers but they are just assumptions. Life is not that simple.

You only need to look at original borders after the collapse of empires, kingdoms, caliphates etc to see that they never(?) return to their original form. All countries change over the years, even the USA. As pointed out earlier, borders in Europe have changed many thousands of times. Look at just the last 1,000 years. Most people will be amazed at the changes in such a short period:
[video]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f54_1337075813#w7x6fTiiWjkU8DO7.01[/video]

If you have bothered to look at that, you will understand that you simply can not select any given point in history and say 'There and then the borders and governments in power were the 'right' ones'. It is simply impossible.

..... The "Palestinian people" are a fiction that was invented in 1967 for propaganda purposes. They have no more claim to the land than you or I.

The TOG
​

How do you ignore the thousands of maps, in existence for thousands of years that show Palestine? How do you ignore biblical references to Palestine? To say that Palestinians are 'fiction' sounds a bit desperate. People living in Palestine, calling themselves Palestinians undoubtedly have a better claim than you or I.

 

[TOG]

How do you ignore biblical references to Palestine?

How do you ignore the post immediately previous to yours? (I posted the answer 20 minutes before you posted the question. We weren't posting at the same time.) As for the rest, I have to get back to work now, but I'll answer tonight when I get home.

The TOG
​