Preterism

[JLB]

You know some scriptures. You know where Jesus said not one stone would be left upon another... and other places.

Please try to refrain from "selective" questions. Is the mountain side the only place you know of that Jesus spoke? It doesn't look good to phrase your questions after the, "Have you quit beating your wife?", model.

Here is what you stated -

Of course we have no idea if the Roman army will burn Cincinnati, or if it will rain comets... but all that stuff was way too clearly specifically written to the audience of that day.

Here is the scriptures that I stated -

Jerusalem.

This will take place in Jerusalem.

The armies will gather in Jerusalem.

Jesus will return to Jerusalem.

The Temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem.

Jesus was speaking to His disciples on the mount of Olives.

He was answering their question about - 3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

From verse 4 on we have what is known as the Olivet Discourse.

Jesus makes no mention of the events of 70 AD in His Olivet Discourse.

Yet, we have folks trying to establish a connection to that time period by misunderstanding what He said.

Jesus did not return in 70 AD.

The resurrection did not occur in 70 AD.

This takes place at the end of the age, as plainly spoken by the mouth of Zechariah -

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. 6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. Zechariah 14:1-7

• For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished.

• And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,

• Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

Zechariah spoke of the time when the Lord would return WITH HIS SAINTS!

This is certainly not the events of 70 AD.

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


JLB

 

[Willie T]

Hi Willie,

The reason I asked was your intial post was "Can someone shed some light on... x, y, z".. and then your posts after that seemed to indicate you'd already made up your mind anyway about end times.

No worries. I am not one for labels either. Take it easy.

I honestly believe that other than some apocalyptic prophesies, the Bible really isn't all that specific on what the true "end times" will be like for Christians.

Kind of like how we are probably pretty sure we won't be walking on streets paved with gold, when our feet were made to love soft, green grass.

 

[reba]

thanks guys for smoothing out

 

[Lloyd]

Sorry, I guess I have spent too much time on CARM where you have to read your own words six times before you post them to try to determine how the "Apologetists" (they actually like to wear the label) will try to reword or angle around a simple observation.

I'll work on the reactions, but it may take a little time.

Hey Willie,

No worries my friend. Apologies if I offended you or came across a bit heavy like some sort of Bible guru. The bottom line is, I'm trying to learn myself and can honestly say I don't know much!

Have a good day, and hopefully I'll get to see you on those paves of gold, with or without shoes!

Take care.

 

[Deborah13]

Zec 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Mat 26:30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Mat 26:55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

 

[Sinthesis]

After three months the preterism subforum lives? For a while there I thought perhaps the myriad forms of preterism were no longer controversial.

 

[JLB]

Zec 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Mat 26:30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Mat 26:55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

Are you trying to suggest that this scripture has been fulfilled?

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two...Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:4


JLB

 

[jeff77]

This is all very interesting as I have no pre-conceived ideas about it. I had not heard the terms "pre-trib" or "post-trib" until I came to this website 2 years ago.

 

[Sinthesis]

This is all very interesting as I have no pre-conceived ideas about it. I had not heard the terms "pre-trib" or "post-trib" until I came to this website 2 years ago.

Watching good, everyday, normal Christians argue heatedly over pre-trib verses post-trib is part of what convinced me they could both be wrong and another perspective integrating what each side had right might be possible.

 

[jeff77]

Watching good, everyday, normal Christians argue heatedly over pre-trib verses post-trib is part of what convinced me they could both be wrong and another perspective integrating what each side had right might be possible.

Well I definitely don't believe that Jesus has already returned, so I guess Im not a preterist. Can you help me out with how the events happening in Israel fit in with either of these views? I think some say that the current state of Israel founded in 1947 is not what the Bible says about the regathering of the Jews to the holy land and some do believe it is.

 

[Deborah13]

Well I definitely don't believe that Jesus has already returned, so I guess Im not a preterist. Can you help me out with how the events happening in Israel fit in with either of these views? I think some say that the current state of Israel founded in 1947 is not what the Bible says about the regathering of the Jews to the holy land and some do believe it is.

Some people (which included me at one time) believe that Israel becoming the State of Israel is the fig tree budding in these verses....
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mar 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

If that is true that the fig tree spoken of in these verses is the State of Israel, who are the other trees that are also budding? Who is they shooting forth in Luke 21:30?
Could it be that Jesus meant exactly what He said to them, "when the trees bud in the spring you know summer is near?"

 

[Sinthesis]

Well I definitely don't believe that Jesus has already returned, so I guess Im not a preterist. Can you help me out with how the events happening in Israel fit in with either of these views? I think some say that the current state of Israel founded in 1947 is not what the Bible says about the regathering of the Jews to the holy land and some do believe it is.

People believe all kinds of stuff, but to make sense of it you have to be specific about exactly what verses are about 'the regathering of the Jews to the holy land'. The Bible describes several historical instances of Jews being exiled for whatever reason and then returning. These frame the principles involved, and allow one to relate today's situation to the past.

 

[jeff77]

Ok, thanks. I've got some reading to do.

 

[turnorburn]

Who said "how many people have you seen living on roofs"

tob

 

[Willie T]

A while back, I read a most interesting and enlightening book on endtimes stuff. I tried my best to assume the author's point of view, and see things through unprogramed eyes... as much as possible. Here's how he began the book. I found it especially interesting that the Holy Spirit knew that he needed to WAIT for a specific time in his life to understand some of these things.
****************************************************************************************
Since I was not force-fed a particular point of view by either my parents or my church while growing up, I had the full ability to think freely. I began to dig into studying the endtimes and very quickly realized that this study was going to be deep, complex, and scary.

It didn't take long for me to become thoroughly confused. At that point, I felt the Holy Spirit speak to my heart. He said to me, "Jonathan, please set aside your study of the endtimes. It is not the right season for you to study this. If you will trust Me, I will guide you to a right understanding in the future, but now is not the time. Wait on Me to give you a green light." So for the next two and half years, I chose to read nothing regarding the endtimes; I didn't watch the Left Behind movies (sorry Kirk Cameron); I didn't even read the Book of Revelation!

One day, as I was browsing a used book sale, I saw a book on the endtimes, and I heard the Holy Spirit say to me, "Buy that book; it is time to begin to reveal the truth to you." It has now been over ten years since that day, and what the Holy Spirit has taught me about the endtimes has been some of the most wonderful revelation that I have received from His Word.

Plenty of books about the endtimes have been written based on personal visions or wild interpretations of Scripture. This is not one of those books. I have a Masters Degree in Biblical Studies. I am a student of Church History. I am not going to fill this book with subjective visions and fantasies regarding private interpretations of the endtimes. Enough of those books already exist, and the Holy Spirit had me avoid them for two and half years so that He could prepare my heart for what He wanted to show me.
Here are my starting points.

• Every part of the Gospel is simple, including the teaching regarding the endtimes. If something is too complex for the average person to grasp, then it is being taught wrongly.
  
• Our view of the future should not cause fear. No part of the Gospel (which literally means "good news") ever causes fear.
  
  
• Our understanding of the endtimes determines how we live our lives and whether we plan long-term, build a legacy, prepare our children for a lifetime of service to the Lord, and so forth. A correct view of the endtimes will set us free from fear. It will cause us to have a renewed passion for Jesus rather than an obsession with the antichrist.

 

[Deborah13]

A while back, I read a most interesting and enlightening book on endtimes stuff. I tried my best to assume the author's point of view, and see things through unprogramed eyes... as much as possible. Here's how he began the book. I found it especially interesting that the Holy Spirit knew that he needed to WAIT for a specific time in his life to understand some of these things.
****************************************************************************************
Since I was not force-fed a particular point of view by either my parents or my church while growing up, I had the full ability to think freely. I began to dig into studying the endtimes and very quickly realized that this study was going to be deep, complex, and scary.

It didn't take long for me to become thoroughly confused. At that point, I felt the Holy Spirit speak to my heart. He said to me, "Jonathan, please set aside your study of the endtimes. It is not the right season for you to study this. If you will trust Me, I will guide you to a right understanding in the future, but now is not the time. Wait on Me to give you a green light." So for the next two and half years, I chose to read nothing regarding the endtimes; I didn't watch the Left Behind movies (sorry Kirk Cameron); I didn't even read the Book of Revelation!

One day, as I was browsing a used book sale, I saw a book on the endtimes, and I heard the Holy Spirit say to me, "Buy that book; it is time to begin to reveal the truth to you." It has now been over ten years since that day, and what the Holy Spirit has taught me about the endtimes has been some of the most wonderful revelation that I have received from His Word.

Plenty of books about the endtimes have been written based on personal visions or wild interpretations of Scripture. This is not one of those books. I have a Masters Degree in Biblical Studies. I am a student of Church History. I am not going to fill this book with subjective visions and fantasies regarding private interpretations of the endtimes. Enough of those books already exist, and the Holy Spirit had me avoid them for two and half years so that He could prepare my heart for what He wanted to show me.
Here are my starting points.

• Every part of the Gospel is simple, including the teaching regarding the endtimes. If something is too complex for the average person to grasp, then it is being taught wrongly.
• Our view of the future should not cause fear. No part of the Gospel (which literally means "good news") ever causes fear.
  
  
• Our understanding of the endtimes determines how we live our lives and whether we plan long-term, build a legacy, prepare our children for a lifetime of service to the Lord, and so forth. A correct view of the endtimes will set us free from fear. It will cause us to have a renewed passion for Jesus rather than an obsession with the antichrist.

I've read one of Jonathan Welton's books but not this one, Raptureless.

 

[Willie T]

I've read one of Jonathan Welton's books but not this one, Raptureless.

I don't necessarily agree with all his conclusions, but he sure does give you a lot of information to assess.

(Have you read anything by Jeff Turner?)

 

[Deborah13]

I don't necessarily agree with all his conclusions, but he sure does give you a lot of information to assess.

(Have you read anything by Jeff Turner?)

I haven't read his books but have read some on his website just within the last month or so. I had never heard of him before that.

 

[Willie T]

I haven't read his books but have read some on his website just within the last month or so. I had never heard of him before that.

He will be moving to our congregation around the first of October. I don't honestly know if that will be a good thing or maybe not so good. Too many of our people think the sun rises and sets on him.

 

[turnorburn]

Who said "how many people have you seen living on roofs"

tob