Bible Study The earth is flat

Niblo said:

Do flat-earthers write for sport, or are they true believers? Let’s assume you are of the latter.

I would ask you to imagine that you are on a small island – on the equator – in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. It is summer time. The island has a continuous sandy beach, and you can walk around that beach in half an hour.

Allow me to assume that you are 6ft tall; and that you possess super-zoom binoculars (your choice of make, of course….and colour!).

If you look to sea (from shore level, and without your binoculars for the time being), your horizon will be 3 miles away. Look to sea in any direction you please; your horizon will always be three miles away. Stand on any shore you chose (in any country you choose); the horizon will always be three miles away. This is a constant for someone of your (assumed) height, standing at sea-level. This constant meets all the requirements of repeatability and reproducibility.

Have a peep through your binoculars. The horizon remains three miles away. You are not able to see the ship that is 3.5 miles away. It is sailing below the offing – below your line of sight. In order to see this vessel, you would need to be 8.5 feet above sea level. At 30 feet, your horizon is around 6.7 miles away; at 60 feet it’s 9.5; at 100ft it’s 12.3; and at a thousand feet it’s 38.7 miles. The higher we are, the further we see. That is why lookout points on ships (and radar installations for that matter) are set high in the superstructure (and why ‘friendly’ spotter planes are dearly loved by naval commanders). On a flat earth, a guy standing on the shore would see just as far as a chopper pilot at 1000ft. This never happens; not under any circumstance.

You’ll be familiar with a type of fighting ship known as a frigate. Lighter and faster than a ship-of-the-line (the battleship of its day) frigates served as over-the-horizon scouts. Admiral Nelson called them ‘the eyes of the fleet’. Although capable of fighting, they would avoid contact with ships-of-the-line (matchwood doesn’t make for good sailing). By the way, in the midst of a fleet engagement it was considered bad etiquette for a ship-of-the-line to fire on an enemy frigate which had not fired first! (See Brian Lavery: 'Nelson's Navy: The Ships, Men and Organisation 1793-1815').

On a flat earth, the frigate would not be needed as a scout; after all, even with the less than supa-dupa telescopes of Nelson's day it would have been possible to spot an enemy fleet miles away (some twenty miles at least).

Now back to your island: Imagine a ship – an aircraft carrier, something nice and chunky – sailing away from you. You are looking directly at its stern…no binoculars for the moment. At around 3 miles from shore the ship will begin to fall below the horizon; after a short while, only its deck and upper structures will be visible.

Now look through your binoculars. Ah……the ship does not – will not – spring back into full view (as some appear to believe). Nah. What you see is the deck and upper structures magnified (of course), but also the horizon – still hiding the hull from view. In another moment you will see nothing at all, save the empty ocean, where it ‘meets’ the sky. It is always this way…….always.

As you know, on a clear and cold day, water can create mirage effects. Your aircraft carrier might – in these conditions – appear to spring into full view. But this is an illusion. The hull will not be reflected, only the deck and upper structures; giving the appearance – at least to the novice observer – of a complete vessel.

Experiment for yourself. No need to wait for an aircraft carrier; a full moon and a beach will do just fine.

I assure you that the moon, when partly hidden by the horizon, will not spring back to a complete disc when you switch from naked-eye to binoculars.

Or you could get into a boat, and look back at the land. Same thing…no bounce-back. It is ever thus.

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Mister E said:

That’s your proof?

You are saying we can’t ever see any line of sight object at sea level beyond three and a half miles?

You need to come down range with me and see how laser targeting works. Here’s a hint. We don’t have to make them curve.

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Niblo said:

Concerning Antarctica:

Antarctica is our fifth largest continent, covering about 5.5 million square miles. The 1,900-mile-long Transantarctic Mountains divide the continent into East Antarctica (consisting largely of a high, ice-covered plateau) and West Antarctica (consisting of an archipelago of mountainous islands covered and bonded together by ice).

The following countries have (or have had) seasonal or permanent bases there: Finland; Argentina; United States; Uruguay; Japan; Russia; Chile; Germany; Chile; India; Australia; Brazil; Italy; France; Spain; United Kingdom; South Korea; Pakistan; China; Peru; Ecuador; Czech Republic; Belgium; South African; Bulgaria; New Zealand; Sweden; Norway; and Ukraine. These bases are located all around the coast, with the exception of that which lies between Edward VII Land (adjacent to the Ross Ice Shelf) and Palmer Land (adjacent to the Ronne Ice Shelf). There are also, of course, bases in the interior.

All of Antarctica’s mountain regions have been mapped and visited by geologists, geophysicists, glaciologists, and biologists. Many hidden ranges and peaks are known from geophysical soundings of the Antarctic ice sheets.

In January 1773, Captain James Cook crossed the Antarctic circle and circumnavigated Antarctica.

In 1819-21, Captain Thaddeus Bellingshausen, a Russian naval officer, circumnavigated the Antarctic. His ships were the ‘Vostok’ and the ‘Mirny’. Bellingshausen was the first to cross the Antarctic circle since Cook. He made the first sighting of the continent, reaching 69° 21'S, 2° 14'W. He described: ‘An icefield covered with small hillocks.’

In 1823 the British whaler James Weddell discovered the sea named after him (sailing to 74° 15' S). It was eighty years before anyone else entered the Weddell sea.

In the 1840’s, separate British, French and American expeditions established the status of Antarctica as a continent. They did so after sailing along its continuous coastline.

In 1840, the British naval officer and scientist James Clark Ross took two ships (the ‘Erebus’ and the ‘Terror’) to within 80 miles of the coast until stopped by the Ross Ice Shelf. He also discovered the active volcano named after his ship (Erebus). Another scientist on board identified 145 new species of fish.

Between the late 1800’s and the 20th century numerous expeditions, largely by sealers and whalers, were carried out.

In February 1874, HMS Challenger – during her around-the-world oceanographic cruise – became the first steamship to cross the Antarctic Circle. When dredging the ocean bottom, her crew discovered continental rocks deposited left by icebergs, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Antarctica is a continent.

In January 1909, the Australian Douglas Mawson reached the South Magnetic Pole.

On the 14th of December 1911, the Norwegian Roald Amundsen led a five man expedition that reached the South Pole for the first time.

In 1928, Australian Sir Hubert Wilkins and American Carl Benjamin Eielson became the first to fly over Antarctica around the peninsula region.

In 1929, Richard E. Byrd and three others became the first to fly over the South Pole.

In 1935, Lincoln Ellsworth flew across the continent.

In 1947, The United States sent the largest ever expedition of over 4700 men, 13 ships and 23 airplanes to Antarctica. Most of the coast was photographed for map making.

In 1997, the Norwegian Boerge Ousland became the first person to cross Antarctica unsupported.

Several companies offer tours to Antarctica, from South America, Australia, New Zealand and Norway.

And now you’re asking: ‘What’s the point of all this…what is this old fool up to?’

Here’s the point: According to flat earth proponents, the continent of Antarctica does not exist.

They argue that its seven million (thereabouts) cubic miles of ice – representing about 90 percent of the world’s total, with and average thickness of about 1.5 miles – are located around the entire ‘rim’ of the Earth, forming a barrier some one hundred and fifty feet high, which nobody has ever crossed. This ‘barrier’ contains the oceans and all the land masses. There is no South Pole. The equator is a circle half way between the North Pole and the South Ice Wall.

I’ve mentioned that the South Pole has been located (precisely) by explorers and by Antarctic expeditions. No insurmountable ice wall has been found in Antarctica, nor anywhere else for that matter.

The continent was ice-free during most of its lengthy geologic history: ‘It wasn’t until 34 million years ago that the first small glaciers on the tops of Antarctica’s mountains, and it was some 20 million years later, when world-wide temperatures dropped by 8 °C, that the glaciers’ ice froze onto the rock, and the and the southern ice sheet was born. The northern hemisphere remained relatively ice-free for longer, with Greenland and the Arctic becoming heavily glaciated only around 3.2 million years ago.’ (New Scientist).

There is no reason to believe that Antarctica will not become ice -free again.

Question: What kept the seas from spilling over the ‘rim’ of the world before Antarctica developed its ice; before the so-called ‘ice barrier’ could possibly have formed?

Have a great day, and very best regards.

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Mister E said:

When you flew your air plane over the earth plane, did you have to constantly run nose down to keep from gaining altitude? Of course not.

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WIP said:

There is a lake about a 2-hour drive from my home called Mille Lacs. See the screen shot from my lake contour map software below. From north to south, Mille Lacs Lake is about 16 miles in length. About centered on the north end is the Red Door Lodge (marked) where I've stayed a couple times with friends. Aspen trees, which are common around this lake grow to about 70' high and red and white pine trees, which are also native, grow even taller reaching heights of over 100'. Looking south from the lodge, one cannot see the opposite shore, any treetops, or any indication that one exists even with my 10x binoculars. I have stood there and watched guide boats heading south toward some of the mid-lake structure appearing to get shorter and shorter until they completely disappear over the horizon.

How do flat earthers explain this?

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Niblo said:

Concerning Antarctica:

Antarctica is our fifth largest continent, covering about 5.5 million square miles. The 1,900-mile-long Transantarctic Mountains divide the continent into East Antarctica (consisting largely of a high, ice-covered plateau) and West Antarctica (consisting of an archipelago of mountainous islands covered and bonded together by ice).

The following countries have (or have had) seasonal or permanent bases there: Finland; Argentina; United States; Uruguay; Japan; Russia; Chile; Germany; Chile; India; Australia; Brazil; Italy; France; Spain; United Kingdom; South Korea; Pakistan; China; Peru; Ecuador; Czech Republic; Belgium; South African; Bulgaria; New Zealand; Sweden; Norway; and Ukraine. These bases are located all around the coast, with the exception of that which lies between Edward VII Land (adjacent to the Ross Ice Shelf) and Palmer Land (adjacent to the Ronne Ice Shelf). There are also, of course, bases in the interior.

All of Antarctica’s mountain regions have been mapped and visited by geologists, geophysicists, glaciologists, and biologists. Many hidden ranges and peaks are known from geophysical soundings of the Antarctic ice sheets.

In January 1773, Captain James Cook crossed the Antarctic circle and circumnavigated Antarctica.

In 1819-21, Captain Thaddeus Bellingshausen, a Russian naval officer, circumnavigated the Antarctic. His ships were the ‘Vostok’ and the ‘Mirny’. Bellingshausen was the first to cross the Antarctic circle since Cook. He made the first sighting of the continent, reaching 69° 21'S, 2° 14'W. He described: ‘An icefield covered with small hillocks.’

In 1823 the British whaler James Weddell discovered the sea named after him (sailing to 74° 15' S). It was eighty years before anyone else entered the Weddell sea.

In the 1840’s, separate British, French and American expeditions established the status of Antarctica as a continent. They did so after sailing along its continuous coastline.

In 1840, the British naval officer and scientist James Clark Ross took two ships (the ‘Erebus’ and the ‘Terror’) to within 80 miles of the coast until stopped by the Ross Ice Shelf. He also discovered the active volcano named after his ship (Erebus). Another scientist on board identified 145 new species of fish.

Between the late 1800’s and the 20th century numerous expeditions, largely by sealers and whalers, were carried out.

In February 1874, HMS Challenger – during her around-the-world oceanographic cruise – became the first steamship to cross the Antarctic Circle. When dredging the ocean bottom, her crew discovered continental rocks deposited left by icebergs, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Antarctica is a continent.

In January 1909, the Australian Douglas Mawson reached the South Magnetic Pole.

On the 14th of December 1911, the Norwegian Roald Amundsen led a five man expedition that reached the South Pole for the first time.

In 1928, Australian Sir Hubert Wilkins and American Carl Benjamin Eielson became the first to fly over Antarctica around the peninsula region.

In 1929, Richard E. Byrd and three others became the first to fly over the South Pole.

In 1935, Lincoln Ellsworth flew across the continent.

In 1947, The United States sent the largest ever expedition of over 4700 men, 13 ships and 23 airplanes to Antarctica. Most of the coast was photographed for map making.

In 1997, the Norwegian Boerge Ousland became the first person to cross Antarctica unsupported.

Several companies offer tours to Antarctica, from South America, Australia, New Zealand and Norway.

And now you’re asking: ‘What’s the point of all this…what is this old fool up to?’

Here’s the point: According to flat earth proponents, the continent of Antarctica does not exist.

They argue that its seven million (thereabouts) cubic miles of ice – representing about 90 percent of the world’s total, with and average thickness of about 1.5 miles – are located around the entire ‘rim’ of the Earth, forming a barrier some one hundred and fifty feet high, which nobody has ever crossed. This ‘barrier’ contains the oceans and all the land masses. There is no South Pole. The equator is a circle half way between the North Pole and the South Ice Wall.

I’ve mentioned that the South Pole has been located (precisely) by explorers and by Antarctic expeditions. No insurmountable ice wall has been found in Antarctica, nor anywhere else for that matter.

The continent was ice-free during most of its lengthy geologic history: ‘It wasn’t until 34 million years ago that the first small glaciers on the tops of Antarctica’s mountains, and it was some 20 million years later, when world-wide temperatures dropped by 8 °C, that the glaciers’ ice froze onto the rock, and the and the southern ice sheet was born. The northern hemisphere remained relatively ice-free for longer, with Greenland and the Arctic becoming heavily glaciated only around 3.2 million years ago.’ (New Scientist).

There is no reason to believe that Antarctica will not become ice -free again.

Question: What kept the seas from spilling over the ‘rim’ of the world before Antarctica developed its ice; before the so-called ‘ice barrier’ could possibly have formed?

Have a great day, and very best regards.

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tim-from-pa said:

I make sundials. I can delineate them with a ruler and protractor, or I can calculate them. Either way, I can make a sundial here at home for any place on the earth and it will work. The mathematics of a sundial is such that it would not work for a flat earth. My point is that I like to try to make the proof as simple as possible. All that you said is true and great proofs, but I amused myself by saying the spherical nature of the earth can be proven with a mere ruler and protractor since the more eloquent proofs that you cite I suspect goes over some heads. As for the videos above, I can answer a FE person on all of those. The most humorous is the sun's rays going in different directions. They are not. They are parallel. They are the same azimuth for all locations, but what seems to escape some is that the vantage point of the one observer makes it appear to go in a "different" direction. What I am saying is that if the sunbeam hits me from a SW direction, I guarantee that if I went to all the locations that the beams are shining down to will also be from the SW. The sun is very far away. That's an indisputable geometric observation that even the ancient Greeks knew.

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Free said:

That is really interesting. With the mathematics, we would have to throw out all the math and science that gets us into orbit, to the moon, and to other planets, if the earth was flat. Presumably all the other planets would have to be flat as well, but that is clearly not the case.

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tim-from-pa said:

With FE beliefs, I have yet to see any serious mathematics. What I stated about rulers and protractors is indeed mathematics, but the unlearned will just counter such an argument with "you've been brainwashed" if I use trig formulas. Actually, I derived much of what I know by reasoning it out as opposed to "I just believed what I was told" as the pot would say to the kettle, but that's another story. Rulers and protractors demonstrate physically what mathematics states in concepts. Besides, it shows people who are not as versed in mathematics why it works. Now, I would hope that anyone into FE theory isn't going to doubt the interpretation of a ruler or protractor. There are not any formulas involved. Just drawing figures and measuring.

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