Bible Study A Branch in the Vine: Abiding in Christ.

[Tenchi]

John 15:4-5
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself
unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me
and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
​

The "branch and Vine" analogy is a hugely important description of what it is to be a child of God and a disciple of Jesus Christ. As usual, when one digs into an analogy offered by Christ himself, there are great Truths to be discovered. First of all, the analogy doesn't describe a condition into and out of which one can move freely, like a room in a house, or a career, or human friendship. No, to "abide in Christ" is to be saved, "born-again," made a "new creature in Christ" (John 3:3-7; 2 Corinthians 5:17). This is a state of being that, once effected, cannot be undone; it isn't a changeable situation, dependent upon the powers of endurance and faith of the one abiding in Christ. To make "abiding in Christ" so dependent would be to guarantee the dissolution of such abiding in short order. As Jesus said, "Without me, you can do nothing" - not physically and certainly not spiritually. We are, in-and-of ourselves, "without strength" (Romans 5:6), helpless against the impulses of our flesh, the allure of the World and the conniving traps of the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3). We need to be delivered from ourselves and our incorrigible weakness and sinfulness, from the tantalizing call of the World and the deceitful machinations of the Evil One - and we are when we come to abide in Christ and in him find the life, wisdom and power to be all God has created us to be.

The one who trusts in Christ as their Savior and Lord is placed "in him"; they have, by faith and the Holy Spirit taking up residence within them, "put on Christ" (Romans 13:14; Galatians 3:27), "grafted" into him who is the Vine by the Spirit (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11; 1 John 4:13; Romans 11:17-24). To such an one, God makes the following promises:

Hebrews 13:5
5 ...for He Himself has said, "I will never leave you, nor will I ever forsake you."

Romans 8:35-39
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written, "For your sake we are being put to death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 6:37
37 "...the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

In the common style of ancient Jewish literature, this "abiding" state is set in contrasting parallel to the unsaved condition, to the condition of one who is not abiding :

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

In accord with the nature of the parallel, the person in view here is not a saved person who ceases to abide and is then "cast into the fire and burned" but one who has never abided in Christ, one who has never been saved. Abiding in Christ and not abiding him are, then, descriptions of the saved and the lost person, not descriptions of two states into and out of which the saved person can migrate, back-and-forth, as is sometimes taught.

In any case, one who has been made a "branch in the Vine" lives in connection to Christ in very much the same way a branch lives in connection to the vine out of which it grows. How is that, exactly? Well, consider that no branch grows by dint of its own effort. No one ever sees branches of a vine quivering and straining to enlarge themselves, gripping the vine out of which they're growing tightly and fiercely lest they are blown off in a stiff wind, or shrivel under the hot sun and drop to the ground. No, the branches are actually just extensions of the vine, existing and developing only as the life-giving sap of the vine continues to flow into them, expressions or manifestations of the vine that birthed them. No branch in the vine produces or sustains itself. As Jesus said, "For without me, you can do nothing."

All branches are conduits of the life and fruit of the vine; they have no other purpose but that which arises from the life of the vine. No branch of the vine, then, has its own agenda, its own reasons for being, but exists simply to manifest the life of the vine that brought it into being. No branch in a vine thinks to itself, "I shall be a wooden spoon, or boat, or maybe an arrow, or stool." No branch breaks itself free from the vine that produced it and totters away to find its own purposes for its existence, its own identity and meaning. Instead, all branches of the vine bear the fruit of the vine and do so as naturally, plentifully and effortlessly as you and I breathe, or think. As Jesus said, "He who abides in me and I in him bears much fruit."

Does a branch in the vine produce raspberries rather than grapes? Can a branch in a grapevine bear lemons, or coconuts? No, only grapes can appear upon the branch; for that is all that the sap of the vine will ever naturally produce. Only by unnatural, forced grafting might a branch from another plant be connected to the vine and some strange aberrative fruit come into being. But what fruit does appear will not manifest the true life and character of the vine, though it be sweet, or pleasing to the eye. As Jesus said,

Matthew 7:18-20
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

Are you living as a branch in the Vine, who is Christ? Or are you straining and striving to produce spiritual "fruit" for God rather than simply abiding in Christ, waiting patiently, in loving submission to the Spirit of Christ, for him to bear the fruit of himself in you? Are you living in pursuit of your own agenda, desiring an existence separate from that of a branch in the Vine, one that serves your own will and way before any other? Or are you content to be a "vessel, sanctified and meet for the Master's use," seeking first God's kingdom (2 Timothy 2:21; Matthew 6:33) and bringing forth the life of the Vine? Are you trying to mix the life and light of the Vine with the death and darkness of the world, the flesh and the devil, bearing "strange fruit" as a result? "Come out from among them and be separate," God says to His own (2 Corinthians 6:14-18), there can be no fellowship between light and darkness, no mixture of the holy life of Christ with the foul idols of evil temples. The joy, peace, goodness, love and power of the Vine are offered to all but only those who abide in the Vine, truly abide, can enjoy its life and fruit.

Peace, Light and Life to you all in Christ.

 

[Hopeful 2]

John 15:4-5
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself
unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me
and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
​

The "branch and Vine" analogy is a hugely important description of what it is to be a child of God and a disciple of Jesus Christ. As usual, when one digs into an analogy offered by Christ himself, there are great Truths to be discovered. First of all, the analogy doesn't describe a condition into and out of which one can move freely, like a room in a house, or a career, or human friendship. No, to "abide in Christ" is to be saved, "born-again," made a "new creature in Christ" (John 3:3-7; 2 Corinthians 5:17). This is a state of being that, once effected, cannot be undone; it isn't a changeable situation, dependent upon the powers of endurance and faith of the one abiding in Christ. To make "abiding in Christ" so dependent would be to guarantee the dissolution of such abiding in short order. As Jesus said, "Without me, you can do nothing" - not physically and certainly not spiritually. We are, in-and-of ourselves, "without strength" (Romans 5:6), helpless against the impulses of our flesh, the allure of the World and the conniving traps of the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3). We need to be delivered from ourselves and our incorrigible weakness and sinfulness, from the tantalizing call of the World and the deceitful machinations of the Evil One - and we are when we come to abide in Christ and in him find the life, wisdom and power to be all God has created us to be.

The one who trusts in Christ as their Savior and Lord is placed "in him"; they have, by faith and the Holy Spirit taking up residence within them, "put on Christ" (Romans 13:14; Galatians 3:27), "grafted" into him who is the Vine by the Spirit (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11; 1 John 4:13; Romans 11:17-24). To such an one, God makes the following promises:

Hebrews 13:5
5 ...for He Himself has said, "I will never leave you, nor will I ever forsake you."

Romans 8:35-39
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written, "For your sake we are being put to death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 6:37
37 "...the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

In the common style of ancient Jewish literature, this "abiding" state is set in contrasting parallel to the unsaved condition, to the condition of one who is not abiding :

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

In accord with the nature of the parallel, the person in view here is not a saved person who ceases to abide and is then "cast into the fire and burned" but one who has never abided in Christ, one who has never been saved. Abiding in Christ and not abiding him are, then, descriptions of the saved and the lost person, not descriptions of two states into and out of which the saved person can migrate, back-and-forth, as is sometimes taught.

In any case, one who has been made a "branch in the Vine" lives in connection to Christ in very much the same way a branch lives in connection to the vine out of which it grows. How is that, exactly? Well, consider that no branch grows by dint of its own effort. No one ever sees branches of a vine quivering and straining to enlarge themselves, gripping the vine out of which they're growing tightly and fiercely lest they are blown off in a stiff wind, or shrivel under the hot sun and drop to the ground. No, the branches are actually just extensions of the vine, existing and developing only as the life-giving sap of the vine continues to flow into them, expressions or manifestations of the vine that birthed them. No branch in the vine produces or sustains itself. As Jesus said, "For without me, you can do nothing."

All branches are conduits of the life and fruit of the vine; they have no other purpose but that which arises from the life of the vine. No branch of the vine, then, has its own agenda, its own reasons for being, but exists simply to manifest the life of the vine that brought it into being. No branch in a vine thinks to itself, "I shall be a wooden spoon, or boat, or maybe an arrow, or stool." No branch breaks itself free from the vine that produced it and totters away to find its own purposes for its existence, its own identity and meaning. Instead, all branches of the vine bear the fruit of the vine and do so as naturally, plentifully and effortlessly as you and I breathe, or think. As Jesus said, "He who abides in me and I in him bears much fruit."

Does a branch in the vine produce raspberries rather than grapes? Can a branch in a grapevine bear lemons, or coconuts? No, only grapes can appear upon the branch; for that is all that the sap of the vine will ever naturally produce. Only by unnatural, forced grafting might a branch from another plant be connected to the vine and some strange aberrative fruit come into being. But what fruit does appear will not manifest the true life and character of the vine, though it be sweet, or pleasing to the eye. As Jesus said,

Matthew 7:18-20
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

Are you living as a branch in the Vine, who is Christ? Or are you straining and striving to produce spiritual "fruit" for God rather than simply abiding in Christ, waiting patiently, in loving submission to the Spirit of Christ, for him to bear the fruit of himself in you? Are you living in pursuit of your own agenda, desiring an existence separate from that of a branch in the Vine, one that serves your own will and way before any other? Or are you content to be a "vessel, sanctified and meet for the Master's use," seeking first God's kingdom (2 Timothy 2:21; Matthew 6:33) and bringing forth the life of the Vine? Are you trying to mix the life and light of the Vine with the death and darkness of the world, the flesh and the devil, bearing "strange fruit" as a result? "Come out from among them and be separate," God says to His own (2 Corinthians 6:14-18), there can be no fellowship between light and darkness, no mixture of the holy life of Christ with the foul idols of evil temples. The joy, peace, goodness, love and power of the Vine are offered to all but only those who abide in the Vine, truly abide, can enjoy its life and fruit.

Peace, Light and Life to you all in Christ.

It sure makes it clear that no sinners are "in Him".
Or of His branch or root.

 

[Tenchi]

Please refrain from posting what you know, and have been shown repeatedly on this site, is an unbiblical and dangerous falsehood. Saints do sin - though they never have to. As branches in the Vine, the life of Vine is always ready to flow into them, filling them and bearing fruit in them in due time.

In any case, if I must, I will ask the moderator to remove your posts from this thread if they persist in asserting your sinless perfection error.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Please refrain from posting what you know, and have been shown repeatedly on this site, is an unbiblical and dangerous falsehood. Saints do sin - though they never have to. As branches in the Vine, the life of Vine is always ready to flow into them, filling them and bearing fruit in them in due time.

In any case, if I must, I will ask the moderator to remove your posts from this thread if they persist in asserting your sinless perfection error.

So the branches of the Vine CAN bear miserable fruit ?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Tenchi,

First of all, the analogy doesn't describe a condition into and out of which one can move freely, like a room in a house, or a career, or human friendship. No, to "abide in Christ" is to be saved, "born-again," made a "new creature in Christ" (John 3:3-7; 2 Corinthians 5:17). This is a state of being that, once effected, cannot be undone; it isn't a changeable situation, dependent upon the powers of endurance and faith of the one abiding in Christ.

I am not suggesting that Jesus is speaking of "a condition into and out of which one can move freely like a room in a house", but I disagree with OSAS. I consider that salvation occurs when we affectionately believe the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and Name of Jesus Christ and allow this to motivate us to identify with the death and resurrection of Christ by baptism in water and after this live the crucified/resurrected life motivated by the love of Christ.

I consider that it is possible to fall away, and this could be by gradual neglect or as a result of severe trials. I consider the lesson of the Vine, the Branches and the Fruit is very relevant to this question. The reason why Jesus gave this lesson is to encourage the Apostles to be steadfast in the face of the impending situation when Jesus was to be arrested, tried, crucified and then die. They needed to heed the warning and respond to the encouragement to "Abide in Me". The repetition by Jesus of "Abide in Me" indicates the importance of this message and the danger of falling away. Jesus also emphasises the need to bring forth fruit.
John 15:1–8 (KJV): 1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
You quoted John 15:4-5 but the whole passage above gives a better perspective of what Jesus is teaching.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Tenchi]

I am not suggesting that Jesus is speaking of "a condition into and out of which one can move freely like a room in a house", but I disagree with OSAS.

Okay. I hold to it quite staunchly, as it appears to me to be very evidently taught in God's word.

I consider that salvation occurs when we affectionately believe the Gospel of the Kingdom of God and Name of Jesus Christ and allow this to motivate us to identify with the death and resurrection of Christ by baptism in water and after this live the crucified/resurrected life motivated by the love of Christ.

Does the "affectionately" part in your description above find any echo in God's word? We are to believe in Christ as Savior and yield to him as our Lord (Romans 10:9-10; Acts 16:30-31; John 3:16, etc.), trusting in his atoning work for us on the cross of Calvary, but I can't think of any place in Scripture that teaches that we must do so "affectionately."

By faith, we ought to stand upon the truth of our spiritual union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6:11) worked upon us by the Holy Spirit who "baptizes" us into Christ (Acts 2:1-4; Titus 3:5), imparting to us his life and thus making us new creatures in him (2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans 8:9-14; John 3:3-7). This should all find expression in the ritual of baptism, which is symbolic of our union with Christ. As the Spirit works to transform the submitted born-again believer, the fruit of himself - love, joy, peace, and so on - manifests increasingly in his/her life (Galatians 5:22-23; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Ephesians 3:16; Philippians 2:13, etc.).

I consider that it is possible to fall away, and this could be by gradual neglect or as a result of severe trials.

Then you are your own savior, ultimately, securing Christ's salvation of you by dint of your own efforts to maintain it. I don't see, though, in Scripture any place that teaches that salvation is Christ plus my own labors to stay saved. In fact, this thinking is directly in contradiction to God's word. See Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5-8, and 2 Timothy 1:9.

There is only one Savior and his work on the cross of Calvary was perfect, fully satisfying the demands of God's holy justice. See John 14:6, Acts 4:12, 1 Timothy 2:5. It is ONLY on the basis of Christ's perfect atoning work on my behalf that I find acceptance with God. He always accepts Christ and so those who are "in Christ" are also always accepted by Him, too. We have, then, nothing of which to boast in our relationship with God through Christ; it is all because of the Savior that we enjoy fellowship with God.

The reason why Jesus gave this lesson is to encourage the Apostles to be steadfast in the face of the impending situation when Jesus was to be arrested, tried, crucified and then die.

No, it was Christ teaching that ALL need to be saved, to be born-again, and thus to abide in him - even his own disciples. And so they were in Acts 2.

The repetition by Jesus of "Abide in Me" indicates the importance of this message and the danger of falling away.

The phrase "falling away" does not appear anywhere in John 15:1-6.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Tenchi,

Does the "affectionately" part in your description above find any echo in God's word? We are to believe in Christ as Savior and yield to him as our Lord (Romans 10:9-10; Acts 16:30-31; John 3:16, etc.), trusting in his atoning work for us on the cross of Calvary, but I can't think of any place in Scripture that teaches that we must do so "affectionately."

I am not sure why you object to "affectionately", but possibly the following goes some way towards this concept, even though most translations have "mind".
Colossians 3:2 (KJV): Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Then you are your own savior, ultimately, securing Christ's salvation of you by dint of your own efforts to maintain it.

Perhaps we have a different conception of what "faith" is. I consider that the faith in each individual is both qualitative and quantitative. Each individual is different according to their background, character and spiritual education. Faith is NOT an injection that we receive, but a response to the preaching of the Word. Abraham at a certain stage in his development was "strong in faith". I consider that true faith comprises both the intellect, the emotions and many other aspects of our mental processes. We encounter the Bible teaching in the following:
Genesis 15:4–6 (KJV): 4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir. 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Romans 10:16–17 (KJV): 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Luke 8:15 (KJV): But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

I do not consider that the Holy Spirit takes over our thinking and then gives us an armchair ride to the Kingdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
If I may join you in this discussion, please consider what Paul wrote in relation to what Luke wrote.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Luke 8:15 (KJV): But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

If there are none that are righteous, how does a person have an honest and good heart? Remember what Jeremiah wrote:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

There is an obvious transformation between Jeremiah's "desperately wicked" and Jesus' "honest and good" hearts.
Who or what causes the change?
If we agree with Paul, " . . . There is none righteous . . . ", then the person is incapable of making this change. That stands to reason.

We also agree that "good ground" (an honest and good heart) is necessary for the seed to grow.

Also, who or what causes us to have the ability to hear the Word, and have understanding.
Who or what gives us "ears to hear?"

What has the seed done in any of this transformation?
The sower prepared the soil to make it "good ground."
The sower plants the seed.
Other than being the recipient, the seed has done nothing in this process.
It is all the work of the sower.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Tenchi]

I am not sure why you object to "affectionately", but possibly the following goes some way towards this concept, even though most translations have "mind".
Colossians 3:2 (KJV): Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

It's not that I object to the word but that I wonder if you have any good basis for it, in connection with salvation, in Scripture. I can think of many - myself among them - who've trusted in Christ as their Savior and Lord who did so out of a fear of hellfire and damnation, not "affection" (at least in the modern sense of the word) for Christ or God. In fact, at the time, God seemed frightful and dangerous to me (an eight-year-old) and, taking Him very seriously as the One who could destroy both body and soul in hell, I resorted as quickly as possible to the Savior for rescue.

Ideally, the Gospel properly understood should provoke love for God (1 John 4:16-19), or, at least, deep gratefulness for the gift of His incredible mercy, grace and love. But in my child's brain so many decades ago all I could see was the dancing flames of hell and the need to avoid them at all costs. Trusting in Christ as my Savior as a child, then, was just enormously relieving to me. Many years passed before I began to be filled with the love of God and had anything like "affection" for God.

My story is not the case for every other person, of course. For some, there is affection in their hearts prompting their trust in Christ; I'm not confident, though, that it has to be there in order to be saved. Ideally, yes, but not necessarily. And so, my question to you about the term "affectionately."

Perhaps we have a different conception of what "faith" is. I consider that the faith in each individual is both qualitative and quantitative. Each individual is different according to their background, character and spiritual education. Faith is NOT an injection that we receive, but a response to the preaching of the Word.

Yes, I would agree with this - as far as you've explained your view. The capacity for faith is present in every normally-functioning human being. The atheist exercises faith just as I do: He has faith in his wife, doctor, dentist, barber, chef at his favorite restaurant, etc.

I do not consider that the Holy Spirit takes over our thinking and then gives us an armchair ride to the Kingdom.

Nor do I.

But once reconciled to God, I embark on a process whereby I yield up control of myself more and more to the Holy Spirit and am transformed, manifesting Christ in my living with increasing clarity and depth. (Romans 6:13-18; Romans 12:1; James 4:6-10; 1 Peter 5:6; Galatians 5:16, 25).

 

[Tenchi]

Hey All,
If I may join you in this discussion, please consider what Paul wrote in relation to what Luke wrote.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Luke 8:15 (KJV): But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

If there are none that are righteous, how does a person have an honest and good heart? Remember what Jeremiah wrote:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

There is an obvious transformation between Jeremiah's "desperately wicked" and Jesus' "honest and good" hearts.
Who or what causes the change?
If we agree with Paul, " . . . There is none righteous . . . ", then the person is incapable of making this change. That stands to reason.

Does it? Does it stand to reason? I'm not so sure. Certainly, your conclusion doesn't seem evident in Scripture.

Consider Job:

Job 1:1
1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

How was this true of Job if "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked"? How was Job able to overcome such a heart and be called by God Himself, "perfect and upright"? Well, God indicates something of how in his remarks about Job to Satan:

Job 1:8
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one who fears God, and eschews evil?

Some would say that such a man, given his "desperately wicked" heart, is impossible without God's Spirit making him a "perfect and upright man" through spiritual regeneration. But this isn't what God says here, is it? No, God points to Job's "fear" of Himself (Heb. - "yare" - to fear, to revere) as the basis for Job's "eschewing evil." It doesn't, then, look to me like those whose hearts are "desperately wicked and deceitful" are therefore incapable of changing and moving in God's direction.

What about Cornelius?

Acts 10:1-2
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Only after the events of chapter 10 transpire does Cornelius come to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thus spiritually-regenerated by him (Acts 10:44-48). He was, then, prior to his conversion "a devout man, and one who feared God" which means that, like Job, Cornelius was capable of righteous living, too, though he was afflicted with the heart Jeremiah the prophet had described.

There are others who, without spiritual regeneration of the post-Calvary, born-again sort, were nonetheless good and righteous: Noah (Genesis 6:9), Boaz (Ruth 2-4), Asa (1 Kings 15:9-14), etc.. It seems pretty apparent to me, therefore, that the wicked natural state of the human heart doesn't make people utterly unable to "fear God and eschew evil."

Also, who or what causes us to have the ability to hear the Word, and have understanding.
Who or what gives us "ears to hear?"

God's truth, His word, is a "hammer," "fire," "piercing sword," "light," nourishing "milk" (Jeremiah 23:9; Psalm 119:105, 130; Hebrews 4:12; 1 Peter 2:2) and the Gospel itself contains the "power of God unto salvation to every one who believes" (Romans 1:16). God has invested His words with His power and their impact can, therefore, be very powerful, convicting, illuminating, purifying and changing wicked people.

What has the seed done in any of this transformation?
The sower prepared the soil to make it "good ground."
The sower plants the seed.
Other than being the recipient, the seed has done nothing in this process.
It is all the work of the sower.

Well, if the "seed" is God's truth, it has done many things, as I just pointed out: It convicts, illuminates, and purifies, having the effect which God intends it should have (Isaiah 55:11).

None of this, though, negates the free agency of the individual and their responsibility to respond positively to the Gospel in humility and faith (Matthew 18:4; Matthew 23:12; James 4:10, etc.). In each of these verses God calls us to humble ourselves, which indicates to me that my response to God's truth and to His drawing, convicting, and illuminating (John 6:44; John 16:8; 2 Timothy 2:25) is mine to make.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Tenchi,

It's not that I object to the word but that I wonder if you have any good basis for it, in connection with salvation, in Scripture.

For starters I consider that another meaning for the word "Gospel" is "Good News" or "Glad Tidings". What a contrast to the normal newspaper "news", especially with the two major wars at the moment,

I can think of many - myself among them - who've trusted in Christ as their Savior and Lord who did so out of a fear of hellfire and damnation, not "affection" (at least in the modern sense of the word) for Christ or God. In fact, at the time, God seemed frightful and dangerous to me (an eight-year-old) and, taking Him very seriously as the One who could destroy both body and soul in hell, I resorted as quickly as possible to the Savior for rescue.

I find your account very strange. To allow an 8 year old to be subject to such teachings is to me outrageous. My fellowship practices adult baptism, and many of our baptisms are late teens and early 20s young people brought up in Sunday School over a 15 year syllabus of 5x Junior, Intermediate and Senior series. Even then the individual applicant is then personally tutored and prepared and only baptised when they appreciate the blessing and benefit of what is involved. In other words, when an affectionate belief of the things of the kingdom and name is awakened Acts 8:5-6,12. Their baptism is a happy occasion attended by many of the local children and adults and in our region we have 8 meetings and a private school and most of the young people are very good friends.

My only experience of "hell fire" preaching was when I was invited to a local Baptist Church over 25 years ago. There was a great deal of singing, then a fiery red haired speaker tried to scare us with the Devil and fiery torments, and as he got worked up his face started to match the colour of his hair. He then called for anyone to come forward to be saved or to renew their commitment after a lapse, and two old ladies went forward. The lady two seats along from where I was sitting said "not her again".

Nor do I.
But once reconciled to God, I embark on a process whereby I yield up control of myself more and more to the Holy Spirit and am transformed, manifesting Christ in my living with increasing clarity and depth.

One of my workmates was an ex-Baptist now part time Pentecostal Pastor. He claimed that because he had "the Holy Spirit" he could come up with the correct answer. On one occasion, when we were discussing OSAS, and I thought what I had shared was an obvious dismissal of his error, but he seemed to hesitate and then he stated something that to me was ludicrous, but he seemed very happy with what he had stated, possibly with the assurance that the Holy Spirit had "spoken". My own position is that we develop a "Spirit" mind by hearing, reading and meditating on the Word of God, not by having a voice within or any direct guidance by the Holy Spirit.

As far as the instruction by Christ "abide in me" I was encouraged very much by our meeting this morning, and the refreshing and encouraging words by our speaker on the need to be ready for Christ's near return and also one of our hymns, common to many hymn books, "Soldiers of Christ, arise, and put your armour on", though we have changed some of the wording.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Tenchi]

Greetings again Tenchi,

Hello.

For starters I consider that another meaning for the word "Gospel" is "Good News" or "Glad Tidings". What a contrast to the normal newspaper "news", especially with the two major wars at the moment,

Yes, "gospel" comes from "good spell," an old way of saying "good news."

I find your account very strange. To allow an 8 year old to be subject to such teachings is to me outrageous.

That's...interesting. Jesus died for all, didn't he? Even eight-year-old boys.

My fellowship practices adult baptism, and many of our baptisms are late teens and early 20s young people brought up in Sunday School over a 15 year syllabus of 5x Junior, Intermediate and Senior series. Even then the individual applicant is then personally tutored and prepared and only baptised when they appreciate the blessing and benefit of what is involved.

Along with symbolizing the new convert's union with Christ in his death, burial and resurrection (Romans 6:1-6) and the new spiritual life they've been given in the Person of the Holy Spirit (1 John 4:13; Romans 8:9-11; Titus 3:5), baptism also is an opportunity for the new convert to immediately express their faith in concrete, overt action (James 2:14-26). Waiting a long period before being baptized quite ruins this last purpose/benefit of being baptized immediately upon confession of a saving faith in Christ as Savior and Lord, as happened commonly in the Book of Acts (Acts 2:41; 8:12-13, 36; 10:47-48; 16:30-33, etc.).

My only experience of "hell fire" preaching was when I was invited to a local Baptist Church over 25 years ago. There was a great deal of singing, then a fiery red haired speaker tried to scare us with the Devil and fiery torments, and as he got worked up his face started to match the colour of his hair. He then called for anyone to come forward to be saved or to renew their commitment after a lapse, and two old ladies went forward. The lady two seats along from where I was sitting said "not her again".

I've been within the Baptist denomination all of my life, the son and grandson of Baptist pastors and I've never experienced anything like what you've described above. No red-faced hellfire and brimstone preacher, no gossips eye-rolling at those who go forward in response to a sermon. Your experience actually has the flavor of a caricature...

One of my workmates was an ex-Baptist now part time Pentecostal Pastor. He claimed that because he had "the Holy Spirit" he could come up with the correct answer. On one occasion, when we were discussing OSAS, and I thought what I had shared was an obvious dismissal of his error, but he seemed to hesitate and then he stated something that to me was ludicrous, but he seemed very happy with what he had stated, possibly with the assurance that the Holy Spirit had "spoken". My own position is that we develop a "Spirit" mind by hearing, reading and meditating on the Word of God, not by having a voice within or any direct guidance by the Holy Spirit.

I don't see any ground in Scripture for the idea that the Spirit, through vague inner impulse or as a voice in the mind of a believer, communicates with the person in whom he resides. The Bible says the Spirit will bring to remembrance the teachings of Christ (John 14:26), which are found in the Bible. There is also 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Matthew 4:4, Psalms 1, Psalms 119, 1 Peter 2:2, etc., all of which tell the born-again person that God has - and is - speaking to them from His word, which is entirely sufficient to fully inform them on all matters of Christian doctrine and practice. While I hold very firmly (and biblically) to OSAS, I don't subscribe to the Pentecostal spiritual hyper-subjectivism/sensuality that your workmate demonstrated to you.

The word of God does indicate, though, a pretty comprehensive list of things the Holy Spirit will do to the believer:

- convict (John 16:8; Revelation 2-3).
- teach (John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16).
- strengthen (Ephesians 3:16; Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13, 4:13, etc.).
- comfort (2 Corinthians 1:3-5).
- transform (Galatians 5:22-23; 2 Corinthians 3:18).
- glorify God within the born-again person (John 16:14).

And so on.

Often, it seems to me, Christians occupy one of two extremes when it comes to the Holy Spirit: He is either acting upon the believer in a manner rather like demonic possession, or he has no direct, discernible effect upon the believer whatever. I don't hold to either of these extremes but live daily in the experience of the Holy Spirit that the Bible verses above describe. There is no hysteria, no hyper-sensuality or emotionality, no searching for a mysterious inner "voice" or impulse, just the rather meat-and-potatoes experience of the Spirit's conviction, illumination, strengthening, comfort and transformation of me day-by-day.

As far as the instruction by Christ "abide in me" I was encouraged very much by our meeting this morning, and the refreshing and encouraging words by our speaker on the need to be ready for Christ's near return and also one of our hymns, common to many hymn books, "Soldiers of Christ, arise, and put your armour on", though we have changed some of the wording.

I very much seek to live in Galatians 5:16 and 25 these days, having realized that "living in/by the Spirit" is not the same as "walking in/by the Spirit." As I wait in faith in, and submission to, the Holy Spirit throughout each day, he changes me, subtly, unnoticeably, but profoundly altering me, making me more and more a reflection of Jesus Christ. How good God is!

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
You are right Tenchi, I made a mistake in my post. ( I guess you can now officially cross me off the perfect list. There goes my halo and everything.) Thanks for catching it. I will correct my mistake later in this post.

For now let me work through your post.

Job 1:1
1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

"How was this true of Job if "the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked"? How was Job able to overcome such a heart and be called by God Himself, "perfect and upright"? Well, God indicates something of how in his remarks about Job to Satan:" Quote from Tenchi

Genesis 6:8-9 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

So was Noah. We gotta throw him in there as well. What else do these men most likely have in common? They lived prior to the Law; during the age of the patriarchs. Job was a patriarch. The Law changed the paradym. Nobody, save one lone person whom you did not mention, (I will say whom later.), born after the Law was given, and in awareness of the Law, can fairly make, this claim. And if we agree with Paul, all have sinned. If all have, nobody after the Law is perfect. All is an absolute term. So that stands.

"What about Cornelius?" Quote from Tenchi

Acts 10:1-2 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

A Roman centurion; and by all accounts a good man. A devout man, who feared God, cared for me less fortunate, and who prayed. Are these the characteristics of an unbeliever? Heathens (non Jewish people)can receive Jesus also. (I know because I are one.) This man is a believer. He may not know Scripture. But he knows there is something beyond the gods of Rome. His actions prove this. There are people like Cornelius throughout history.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Everybody is accountable for what they know. There will be Native Americans in that choir who never knew Jesus by name. People who knew in their hearts that there was something greater than just Tatonka. They worshipped the greater: As did Cornelius.
So the evidence for Cornelius being a believer is there. One could also argue that the Law did not apply to Cornelius as he was not Jewish, and maybe not even aware of the Law. On that basis alone, Cornelius is not a good mountain upon which to die.

"There are others who, without spiritual regeneration of the post-Calvary, born-again sort, were nonetheless good and righteous: Noah (Genesis 6:9), Boaz (Ruth 2-4), Asa (1 Kings 15:9-14), etc.. It seems pretty apparent to me, therefore, that the wicked natural state of the human heart doesn't make people utterly unable to "fear God and eschew evil."" Quote from Tenchi

People are neither good nor righteous of their own accord. Paul taught:

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

This is in the Old Testament as well. It is not word for word, but certainly the same sentiment.

Isaiah 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.

The Bible does not contradict itself. This cannot be false here, and in Isaiah, but true elsewhere in the Old Testament. After the Law was given, anyone who knew the Law was subject to, and judged by it. Nobody can live up to it; especially after Jesus redefined when the sin actually started. If someone is righteous, that righteousness has been imputed to them from one who is/was/and always will be righteous. A sinful nature is incapable of changing itself. That is why we need Jesus.

Did Jesus die for, "Noah (Genesis 6:9), Boaz (Ruth 2-4), Asa (1 Kings 15:9-14), etc.." as well as for us? Of course He did. If Jesus died for their sins, they were not perfect.

I am surprised you didn't go with Elijah. He is the much harder person to argue against; for he did not die, yet. He is the unique man in the Old Testament: Born after the Law, before the resurrection, yet he was good enough to be taken. So the examples you gave, all fine people, but they are not don't need salvation perfect people.

"God's truth, His word, is a "hammer," "fire," "piercing sword," "light," nourishing "milk" (Jeremiah 23:9; Psalm 119:105, 130; Hebrews 4:12; 1 Peter 2:2) and the Gospel itself contains the "power of God unto salvation to every one who believes" (Romans 1:16). God has invested His words with His power and their impact can, therefore, be very powerful, convicting, illuminating, purifying and changing wicked people." Quote from Tenchi

I read in another post of yours that you said "God is a gentleman." Now His word, is a "hammer," "fire," "piercing sword," That does not sound very gentlemanly.
Thank you for admitting the truth. It is the power of God's Word that saves an individual. The Word of God:
convicts - makes one aware of sin.
illuminates - shows them the way to righteousness.
purifies - cleanses them from all unrighteousness.
changes people - makes them new creations.

All of this is God's work.

"Well, if the "seed" is God's truth, it has done many things, as I just pointed out: It convicts, illuminates, and purifies, having the effect which God intends it should have (Isaiah 55:11)." Quote from Tenchi

Yes it has.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The parable tells us that God's Word (seed) is distributed on good ground and bad. (Natural surfaces, and a prepared surface.) On natural surfaces (unbelievers) the seed cannot grow and bear fruit. One surface was prepared. (A person who heard the Word and understood it because they had ears that hear.)
Who prepared the ground so the seed could grow?
Who
convicts - makes one aware of sin.
illuminates - shows them the way to righteousness.
Before He
purifies - cleanses them from all unrighteousness.
changes people - makes them new creations.
Was it random chace? Or did the sower do the preparatory work to get the ground ready to receive the seed?

[I made a mistake in my first post. I said "seed" but meant ground. I apologize for any confusion this may have caused.]

Any farmer will tell you there is a huge difference between common ground, and gound that has been prepared to receive seed. The farmer plows the ground, adds nutrition to the ground, waters the ground, to the point that it is no longer just ground, but soil. The ground has been transformed to soil. That is why the seed grows.
Let's compare what the farmer does to what the Word of God does.
The farmer:
plows the ground - makes one aware of sin.
adds nutrition - shows them the way to righteousness.
waters - cleanses them from all unrighteousness.
transformes - makes them new creations.

All of this is the farmer's work.

Maybe lost in all of this is the ground (the person) to whom this is happening. Other than receiving the seed, what has the ground itself done? Nothing.

So [correcting for my mistake] it does stand to reason. All of this is God's work.

Good discussion Tenchi. I enjoyed this. Thanks again for catching my mistake.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Tenchi,

Yes, "gospel" comes from "good spell," an old way of saying "good news."

Yes and salvation comes as a result of an affectionate belief of the true Gospel of the Kingdom and Name Acts 8:5-6,12.

That's...interesting. Jesus died for all, didn't he? Even eight-year-old boys.

Are you suggesting that if an eight year old boy dies before he undergoes the process that you experienced then the immortal soul of this child will be tormented in fire for eternity? This is not my religion. I do not believe in immortal souls, and I do not believe that God is vindictive and cruel. I consider my God, the Father is a merciful and loving God.

Waiting a long period before being baptized quite ruins this last purpose/benefit of being baptized immediately upon confession of a saving faith in Christ as Savior and Lord, as happened commonly in the Book of Acts

I do not disagree, but we are sometimes much more cautious, especially with those who have not been brought up in our fellowship because most arrive with many wrong beliefs such as Trinity, immortal souls, going to heaven or hell at death and that the atonement was by substitution.

I've been within the Baptist denomination all of my life, the son and grandson of Baptist pastors and I've never experienced anything like what you've described above. No red-faced hellfire and brimstone preacher, no gossips eye-rolling at those who go forward in response to a sermon. Your experience actually has the flavor of a caricature...

It appears that it was a special occasion as the church was full, and even though I arrived 10 minutes early the singing was already in progress and I ended up on a chair in the main corridor next to a pew. The singing went on for about an hour and at one stage led by a local Salvation Army person, even though they do not believe in water baptism. The speaker started about 4 pm and lasted about 15 minutes. Then there was another session of singing. I could not join in as I did not have a hymn book. Even if you did not experience such a session, it appears that somehow you were taught that you would burn in hell for ever if you did not accept Jesus. Who taught you this ? Parents, Sunday School or Sermon? The one lesson from my Sunday School days were the promises to Abraham concerning the Land Genesis 13:14-15 where I learnt about resurrection and the Kingdom, and the commentary by Paul in Galatians 3:8,16,26-29 which teaches that we inherit these promises through faith and water baptism. The Land promise speaks of resurrection at the return of Christ, not heaven going at death.

I don't see any ground in Scripture for the idea that the Spirit, through vague inner impulse or as a voice in the mind of a believer, communicates with the person in whom he resides.

Roland Bainton in his book "Here I Stand - A Life of Martin Luther" on pages 202-203 discusses the different perspectives between Luther and Muntzer. I could quote two paragraphs, but his conclusion is that Muntzer is close to modern liberal Protestantism in contrast to Luther who professed no light within.

The Bible says the Spirit will bring to remembrance the teachings of Christ (John 14:26), which are found in the Bible.

I understand that this was portion of the Holy Spirit gifts given to the Apostles so that they could record the work and sayings of Christ.

There is also 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Matthew 4:4, Psalms 1, Psalms 119, 1 Peter 2:2, etc., all of which tell the born-again person that God has - and is - speaking to them from His word, which is entirely sufficient to fully inform them on all matters of Christian doctrine and practice.

Yes we agree here. I fully endorse these Scriptures. There seems to have occurred a division in our local Baptist Churches between those who claimed to have the Holy Spirit including the Holy Spirit gifts of healing, tongues and prophecy and those who did not accept these changes, more traditional Baptists. One of my Baptist friends at work had to change Churches, and said to me "THAT is not the Holy Spirit!!"".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Tenchi]

Hey All,
You are right Tenchi, I made a mistake in my post. ( I guess you can now officially cross me off the perfect list. There goes my halo and everything.) Thanks for catching it. I will correct my mistake later in this post.

??? Okay...

So was Noah. We gotta throw him in there as well. What else do these men most likely have in common? They lived prior to the Law;

To the Law given to Moses, yes, but not to any and all divine law. Both God's moral law, borne by every person in their conscience, and the commands God had given to those living prior to Moses concerning, for example, sacrifice reveal that, pre-Moses, Noah and others were not in an utterly lawless condition. Consider Cain and Abel, who knew what sort of sacrifice was acceptable to God, though they lived before the issuing of the Mosaic Law at Sinai.

Job was a patriarch. The Law changed the paradym. Nobody, save one lone person whom you did not mention, (I will say whom later.), born after the Law was given, and in awareness of the Law, can fairly make, this claim.

You've lost me. What "claim," exactly? And what "paradigm" are you talking about? Also, I didn't mention many I could have. My goal wasn't to provide an exhaustive list but to make a point.

And if we agree with Paul, all have sinned. If all have, nobody after the Law is perfect. All is an absolute term. So that stands.

??? I wasn't contending for sinless perfection for anyone mentioned in the Bible prior to the Atonement of Christ. Yes, all have sinned, but not all, therefore, were/are wicked profligates, degenerate wretches following every evil dictate of their sinful hearts. No, as God's word indicates, there were many people who were like Job, or Noah, or Boaz, etc.

A Roman centurion; and by all accounts a good man. A devout man, who feared God, cared for me less fortunate, and who prayed. Are these the characteristics of an unbeliever?

They were characteristics of a man who had not been permanently indwelt, and thus born-again by, the Holy Spirit. It was this fact that was the reason for my mentioning him. He was good, devout, without the regeneration of the Spirit.

This man is a believer.

He believed in God, obviously, but he was good and devout before he was a born-again man. This was my point.

There will be Native Americans in that choir who never knew Jesus by name.

No, I don't think so. John 14:6.

People who knew in their hearts that there was something greater than just Tatonka. They worshipped the greater: As did Cornelius.
So the evidence for Cornelius being a believer is there.

This is all quite beside my point. And its biblically in error, too.

On that basis alone, Cornelius is not a good mountain upon which to die.

??? "Not a good mountain upon which to die"? I have no idea what you're talking about here...

People are neither good nor righteous of their own accord.

Sure they are. They aren't perfectly righteous, but they are capable of doing good.

Romans 2:14-15
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Lost sinners don't perform morally-right acts for the only reason God accepts: Love for Him (Matthew 22:36-39; 1 Corinthians 13:1-3); but they do things that are morally good, morally right, quite often. These are a "law to themselves," following the "law (of God) written in their hearts" at certain times. They do so entirely without the help of the Holy Spirit being within them.

The Bible does not contradict itself.

No, it doesn't. But the interpretation people may make of its words may make it seem as though it does - as you've done with Romans 3:10.

Did Jesus die for, "Noah (Genesis 6:9), Boaz (Ruth 2-4), Asa (1 Kings 15:9-14), etc.." as well as for us? Of course He did. If Jesus died for their sins, they were not perfect.

Strawman. I've never argued that these people were morally perfect.

I am surprised you didn't go with Elijah. He is the much harder person to argue against; for he did not die, yet. He is the unique man in the Old Testament: Born after the Law, before the resurrection, yet he was good enough to be taken. So the examples you gave, all fine people, but they are not don't need salvation perfect people.

??? I've no idea what you're going on about here... Please re-read my last post to you.

I read in another post of yours that you said "God is a gentleman." Now His word, is a "hammer," "fire," "piercing sword," That does not sound very gentlemanly.

??? This is a big non sequitur. And it is also a Strawman of what I wrote. God and His word are not identical things.

Thank you for admitting the truth.

"Admitting the truth"? Am I under investigation, convicted of a crime? Have I confessed to it somehow? I had no idea...

All of this is God's work.

Through His word.

Was it random chace? Or did the sower do the preparatory work to get the ground ready to receive the seed?

Have I stated that it was random choice? No.

So [correcting for my mistake] it does stand to reason. All of this is God's work.

Good discussion Tenchi. I enjoyed this. Thanks again for catching my mistake.

*Shrugs* Okay... You had more than one mistake in your remarks, though...