A Challenging Question

[Not_Now.Soon]

This question was put in another thread, but I think it's worth having it's own thread for it.

Explain this to me:
If God put Satan, the beast, evil, in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, WHY did He put him there?

IF He put him there and God is omniscient and knows all, then He must have also known that man would end up eating of that tree.

So is this a mean God we're dealing with?

If God specifically put satan in our way to deceive us, then GOD would be responsible for my sin and my sins.
So then WHY would ANYONE end up in hell?

I've heard simular versions of this question as a challange from a few non christians challenging my faith. With the conclusions inbeted in the questions that either God is not Good, is not all powerful, or is not all knowing. I doubt I'm the only one who's been given this challenging question. So lets open up our insight to any answers we have, or how we deal with this kind of question. That way we can build eachother up and help christians face the challenging questions we're given in our testominies.

For me my best guess is not explained in the bible, so I'm hesitant to offer it as a valid explaination to a non believer. Either way my theory is that mankind is not the only element in the equasion. That if the powers in Heaven revolted against God, then God might have allowed a testiment for said creatures by making mankind, loving us and knowing our fall, our history and how He will bring us out of it in the end.

The journey inbetween the fall of Adam and Eve, and the return of Jesus to right our broken world, might be a giant witness to everyone in the heavenly realms to not rebel, not turn away from God, and unfortunately that the consquences for turning away are very real.

This is only my best guess, but it's probably not the best answer for a person who's asking a question like the one above. If anyone has some insight that whould help strengthen a struggling christian, or to teach a nonchristuan while (hopefully) leading them to the bible please share your wisdon.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Thankyou Wondering for posting this question. Sorry I edited it a bit to seperate it from the conversation in the other thread.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Who are we to question God?
I don't think any of us are that big.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Who are we to question God?
I don't think any of us are that big.

Good point. Sounds very much like God's reply to Job when he was questioning God for his suffering.

 

[Wrg1405]

Good point. Sounds very much like God's reply to Job when he was questioning God for his suffering.

Whilst I agree with Rollo and your point about Job we need to realise that Job beleived in God.
Even as a believer he still asked the question of why suffering.

In this day and age those who don't believe in God will ask the same question of suffering and sin.

One side will asking the question because maybe they are suffering or know someone who is and wants to understand, if that is possible.

On the other side some will ask the question of suffering and sin and don't want to know the answer. Basically athiests/humanists. They just want to disprove the existence of God and disprove the bible. Such people will read the bible or googled someone who has that pick out all bad bits and quote that. Yet the reality it they have read words on a piece of paper without actually looking at the context or the history behind the texts they quote.

I experienced this myself many a time.

Just quickly on this point. We had an alpha course going on at church. I was sat on a table with those who had come along and a couple of other people in the church. To me it became quite clear that 2 people on the course had no interest in the Christian faith. I figured out straight away that they were either humanists or athiests.

I picked this up because one said "there is no evidence outside of the bible that Christ existed"
So as I started to quote sources that quoted Jesus as an historical figure, he actually finished my sentence for me about the rest of the sources.

Then he said "you have no right to tell me that I have inherited Adams sin, original sin and therefore am sinful and suffer the consequences because I do not"

My reply was along the lines "I'm not going to talk about original sin but you sin and will judged according to your sin and not Adams, but you as a result of Adams sin you will suffer the consequences" he replied "no I won't"

I just replied "yes you will because one day you are going to die"

I suggested that actually he had no interest in the Christian faith. After that he just baulked me.
I must admit I cringed at times because Christians on the table could only offer "Its all about faith"
The following week I was removed from that table. Yet that week I overheard this guy as the leader of the Alpha course ask "can I talk one Sunday that science disproves God?

I feel that we need to be ready to defend what we beleive. Of course we cannot offer an answer for every question that's raised and when we can't that's where faith is prevalent.

I think Peter hit the nail on the head.

1 Peter 3:15-17
Instead, you must worship Christ as Lord of your life. And if someone asks about your Christian hope, always be ready to explain it. But do this in a gentle and respectful way. Keep your conscience clear. Then if people speak against you, they will be ashamed when they see what a good life you live because you belong to Christ. Remember, it is better to suffer for doing good, if that is what God wants, than to suffer for doing wrong!

Paul commended the Bereans for searching scripture based on his gospel message.

We need to be Bereans and know the scripture, their context, histocrasy in order to be able to give an answer for our hope.

The answer for questions raised by both sides are the same and we need to be ready to answer both. We also need wisdom to know when to press on and know when to stop.

As Jesus said, if they are not willing to receive me shake the dust off your feet as you walk away, do not throw pearls to pigs who will trample on them.

 

[GodsGrace]

This question was put in another thread, but I think it's worth having it's own thread for it.

I've heard simular versions of this question as a challange from a few non christians challenging my faith. With the conclusions inbeted in the questions that either God is not Good, is not all powerful, or is not all knowing. I doubt I'm the only one who's been given this challenging question. So lets open up our insight to any answers we have, or how we deal with this kind of question. That way we can build eachother up and help christians face the challenging questions we're given in our testominies.

For me my best guess is not explained in the bible, so I'm hesitant to offer it as a valid explaination to a non believer. Either way my theory is that mankind is not the only element in the equasion. That if the powers in Heaven revolted against God, then God might have allowed a testiment for said creatures by making mankind, loving us and knowing our fall, our history and how He will bring us out of it in the end.

The journey inbetween the fall of Adam and Eve, and the return of Jesus to right our broken world, might be a giant witness to everyone in the heavenly realms to not rebel, not turn away from God, and unfortunately that the consquences for turning away are very real.

This is only my best guess, but it's probably not the best answer for a person who's asking a question like the one above. If anyone has some insight that whould help strengthen a struggling christian, or to teach a nonchristuan while (hopefully) leading them to the bible please share your wisdon.

Hi NNS,
I was not asking the questions. I was asking them to someone who was making some rather wild claims I've never even heard of before. The questions were rhetorical.

However, we could pursue the matter. It is interesting and something I've thought about.

Please explain better what you mean by this sentence, which I've bolded and highlighted up above:
That if the powers in Heaven revolted against God, then God might have allowed a testiment for said creatures by making mankind,

This problem in Christianity implies that God may not be:
1. All Good.
2. Omnipotent.

(omniscient has nothing to do with this problem)

1. If He were all good, He would not allow His creation to suffer and might never have created them at all due to His omniscience. Also, if He is all good, how was evil created?

2. Assuming evil exists from an outside source, if God were omnipotent, why doesn't He stop evil from even happening?

These are basically the two questions.

You can read any number of books, listen to any number of sermons, study for years, and you'll get all different kinds of answers. The correct answer is that we don't know because the bible does not tell us. God does not allow us to know. When there are such big discrepancies between theologians, it's best to leave the matter alone. We'll find out when we get to heaven.

You did say something that is not right. You say:

might be a giant witness to everyone in the heavenly realms to not rebel, not turn away from God,

Also highlighted and bolded up above.
This idea is not feasible. There are no new angels that are falling away. They are not falling away because all the angels that rebelled and left God (1/3 of them) did that in that one time and all the rest stayed with God. So the above statement would not hold true.

I'll answer my rhetorical questions:

1. God DID NOT put satan in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Satan was an exterior being.
2. We know that God is not a mean God. GOD IS LOVE. And He loves His creation. (us).
3. God is not responsible for our sins since He did not place satan in the garden specifically to tempt A and E.
We are responsible for our sins because of free will.
4. Which is the reason why some end up in hell. Because they do not trust in the Lord for their salvation.

Wondering

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi NNS,
I was not asking the questions. I was asking them to someone who was making some rather wild claims I've never even heard of before. The questions were rhetorical.

However, we could pursue the matter. It is interesting and something I've thought about.

Please explain better what you mean by this sentence, which I've bolded and highlighted up above:
That if the powers in Heaven revolted against God, then God might have allowed a testiment for said creatures by making mankind,

This problem in Christianity implies that God may not be:
1. All Good.
2. Omnipotent.

(omniscient has nothing to do with this problem)

1. If He were all good, He would not allow His creation to suffer and might never have created them at all due to His omniscience. Also, if He is all good, how was evil created?

2. Assuming evil exists from an outside source, if God were omnipotent, why doesn't He stop evil from even happening?

These are basically the two questions.

You can read any number of books, listen to any number of sermons, study for years, and you'll get all different kinds of answers. The correct answer is that we don't know because the bible does not tell us. God does not allow us to know. When there are such big discrepancies between theologians, it's best to leave the matter alone. We'll find out when we get to heaven.

You did say something that is not right. You say:

might be a giant witness to everyone in the heavenly realms to not rebel, not turn away from God,

Also highlighted and bolded up above.
This idea is not feasible. There are no new angels that are falling away. They are not falling away because all the angels that rebelled and left God (1/3 of them) did that in that one time and all the rest stayed with God. So the above statement would not hold true.

I'll answer my rhetorical questions:

1. God DID NOT put satan in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Satan was an exterior being.
2. We know that God is not a mean God. GOD IS LOVE. And He loves His creation. (us).
3. God is not responsible for our sins since He did not place satan in the garden specifically to tempt A and E.
We are responsible for our sins because of free will.
4. Which is the reason why some end up in hell. Because they do not trust in the Lord for their salvation.

Wondering

What does rhetorical mean?
And why is the "h" after the "r"?

 

[GodsGrace]

What does rhetorical mean?
And why is the "h" after the "r"?

I could answer your first question,
But not the second one because the English language has no set rules.
However, you do hear the H sound right after the R.
But then what's the difference between
Rhetorical
Reagan

See? English makes no sense.

A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked to make a point rather than to elicit an answer.[1] Though a rhetorical question does not require a direct answer, in many cases it may be intended to start a discussion or at least draw an acknowledgement that the listener understands the intended message.

A common example is the question "Can't you do anything right?" This question, when posed, is intended not to ask about the listener's abilities, but rather to insinuate a lack of the listener's abilities.
Wikepedia

 

[GodsGrace]

Who are we to question God?
I don't think any of us are that big.

Hi Rollo,
I often say this and, basically, this is the correct answer to many questions.
Job 38:4

Wondering

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I could answer your first question,
But not the second one because the English language has no set rules.
However, you do hear the H sound right after the R.
But then what's the difference between
Rhetorical
Reagan

See? English makes no sense.

A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question that is asked to make a point rather than to elicit an answer.[1] Though a rhetorical question does not require a direct answer, in many cases it may be intended to start a discussion or at least draw an acknowledgement that the listener understands the intended message.

A common example is the question "Can't you do anything right?" This question, when posed, is intended not to ask about the listener's abilities, but rather to insinuate a lack of the listener's abilities.
Wikepedia

In English, as far as I know, "rh" was never pronounced any differently from plain "r". This spelling, as one once wrote, is basically how the Ancient Greek "ῥ" was transliterated in Latin characters.

In Old Greek using polytonic orthography, an initial "ρ" was always written with a rough breathing, indicating the Greek /r/ (whatever its actual phonetic value) was probably aspirated or voiceless at the start of a word. Greek lost its aspirates quite early on though, and by the 4th century AD this rough breathing didn't mark anything anymore. Still, it kept on being written until the 1982 reform, which abolished the polytonic orthography along with the Puristic language and introduced the monotonic system and the Demotic language as official Modern Greek language (though it is still used by, for instance, the Greek Orthodox Church, which refused to acknowledge the reform).

People who made learned borrowings from Old Greek, like "hymn", "hypnosis" or "helium", transliterated the rough breathing on vowels as "h", and did that also for words where the rough breathing was on "ῥ", like "rhythm" or "rhapsody", even though they probably didn't pronounce that initial "r" as voiceless or aspirated themselves. It was just an orthographic convention.


Taken from:
English Language and Usage

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi Rollo,
I often say this and, basically, this is the correct answer to many questions.
Job 38:4

Wondering

Thank you Mrs. wondering.

 

[GodsGrace]

In English, as far as I know, "rh" was never pronounced any differently from plain "r". This spelling, as one once wrote, is basically how the Ancient Greek "ῥ" was transliterated in Latin characters.

In Old Greek using polytonic orthography, an initial "ρ" was always written with a rough breathing, indicating the Greek /r/ (whatever its actual phonetic value) was probably aspirated or voiceless at the start of a word. Greek lost its aspirates quite early on though, and by the 4th century AD this rough breathing didn't mark anything anymore. Still, it kept on being written until the 1982 reform, which abolished the polytonic orthography along with the Puristic language and introduced the monotonic system and the Demotic language as official Modern Greek language (though it is still used by, for instance, the Greek Orthodox Church, which refused to acknowledge the reform).

People who made learned borrowings from Old Greek, like "hymn", "hypnosis" or "helium", transliterated the rough breathing on vowels as "h", and did that also for words where the rough breathing was on "ῥ", like "rhythm" or "rhapsody", even though they probably didn't pronounce that initial "r" as voiceless or aspirated themselves. It was just an orthographic convention.


Taken from:
English Language and Usage

You're a wascally wabbit.
You knew what "rhetorical" meant!!

OK. Now repeat the above in English please!

Wondering

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I can't.
I only know how to speak slang from the wilds of Citrus County.

 

[GodsGrace]

I can't.
I only know how to speak slang from the wilds of Citrus County.

Why is Citrus County wild?
Because you live there?

 

[Douglas Summers]

This question was put in another thread, but I think it's worth having it's own thread for it.

Why did God put Satan in the Garden of Eden?

I have never questioned why, but I have reasoned why. Before man, God created angelic beings and gave them paradise and a perfect world to inhabit. Like man, angels had an individual spirit to rationalize (to know or figure out things and able to fellowship and walk with God, knowing the difference between good and evil) or personal intellect. (no need for those who do not believe in free will to debate my post) I believe that man has an intellect to decide for himself (choice).

If the angels had the intellect to reason, and they were influenced by Satan's rebellion, then they did this with an immortal body (incorruptible) or that it would not decay nor feel physical pain and suffering like the corruptible body of men (made from the earth). So, for God to have a people of His own, they would have to be tested or qualify for eternal life (refined by fire as gold). So, he gave man a corruptible and perishable body to feel the results and pain of sin.. So, thus He made man in the flesh (FIRST) to see and feel the results of sin (physically and mental). This is not the body he wanted, but the seed of the body to come through trial. (1 Cor. 15:35-58) Even cursing the earth he put them on.(Rom. 8:18-25) So every thing God made in the beginning was good, but man through the influence of Satan destroyed what was good. So.....what if man did not sin, then he would have been translated like Enoch.(Gen. 5:22-24) I think God reveals his plan to those who are looking and listening to God instead of trying to make God to fit His carnal understanding and self willed worship.

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello Douglas Summers, dirtfarmer here

God created man a little lower than angels( spirit beings) so that there would be beings that would love God, not because they were created to, but out of love because he loved them first. Do the angels, love God? I have never read any scripture that states that angels love God. God created angels to doxology (praise) God, not because of his love for them, but because of they were created for that purpose. It is my belief that God desired fellowship his creation because they freely loved them.

We read in Hebrew 2:9-10 that Jesus was made a little lower than angels for the suffering of death so that through man's will, they would love him. 1 Peter 1:12 tells us that the angels "desire to look into" the salvation provided for man. Revelation 4:11 states that all things were created for God's pleasure. How much love can be expressed toward something that has no choice but to love us. The greatest show of love is love that is given freely, not demanded.

 

[Douglas Summers]

hello Douglas Summers, dirtfarmer here

God created man a little lower than angels( spirit beings) so that there would be beings that would love God, not because they were created to, but out of love because he loved them first. Do the angels, love God? I have never read any scripture that states that angels love God. God created angels to doxology (praise) God, not because of his love for them, but because of they were created for that purpose. It is my belief that God desired fellowship his creation because they freely loved them.

We read in Hebrew 2:9-10 that Jesus was made a little lower than angels for the suffering of death so that through man's will, they would love him. 1 Peter 1:12 tells us that the angels "desire to look into" the salvation provided for man. Revelation 4:11 states that all things were created for God's pleasure. How much love can be expressed toward something that has no choice but to love us. The greatest show of love is love that is given freely, not demanded.

Hi Farmer, Yes, Christ was made a little lower than the angels (for a little while) so that He could bring us (man) above the angels with Himself. Amen. Which fits into God's purpose in Jesus Christ. BTW, Love demanded would be an oxymoron.

 

[KevinK]

I can answer that question only by considering the alternative hypothesis, of sorts: what if God created only untemptable human beings, completely pre-destined to choose the "right" path back to the Lord? It could not be said that any of those beings had free will, since salvation was their only possible choice. Rather, God wants us to truly choose Him, for this is the greater Love.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Hi NNS,
I was not asking the questions. I was asking them to someone who was making some rather wild claims I've never even heard of before. The questions were rhetorical.

I know you meant the question for that other person, so I'm sorry I posted it here. I didn't know you'd be bothered by this. I do think this kind of question has stumped people or been used as a stumbling block against someone's faith. That's why I posted it again here.

However, we could pursue the matter. It is interesting and something I've thought about.

Please explain better what you mean by this sentence, which I've bolded and highlighted up above:
That if the powers in Heaven revolted against God, then God might have allowed a testiment for said creatures by making mankind,

The story as I understand that explains Satan's revolt and that a third of heaven's angels revolted against God, following with Satan. That story stems from multiple parts of the bible. from part of Ezekiel prophesying against the Tyre. From Ezekiel 26-28. Specifically in chapter 28:11-19. From Isaiah 14:12. In Luke 10:18 when Jesus explains how his disciples were able to cast out demons. And also Revelations 12:1-9.

That story comes from sections of many scripture to explain it. It's not as readily seen in one place in the bible. some parts seem to address Satan directly like Revelations, others I'm not sure are meant for explaining the fall of Satan or really were about the prophies against other nations by Ezekiel and Isaiah. I'm not a bible scholar that new these things without being told them, so I'm not as confidant in some of them either. That said. The angels that revolted (or will revolt?) with Satan happened once. The basis of my theory was that if it happened once God might have allowed rebellion on earth with it's history and every aspect of it to be a reminder to those in the kingdom of heaven to not turn from God. Not just because it will fail, but because there is so much evil from it that there is no point to being apart of it. It's my best explaination to suggest why God allowed so much suffering in the world and didn't correct the problem much earlier in history, but will correct the issue in the future. The explaination is not from the bible, and so I'd rather have something that holds more reliability to it. Like what was pointed out by Rollo Tamasi "who are we to question God," is very much in line with God's response to Job.

This problem in Christianity implies that God may not be:
1. All Good.
2. Omnipotent.

(omniscient has nothing to do with this problem)

1. If He were all good, He would not allow His creation to suffer and might never have created them at all due to His omniscience. Also, if He is all good, how was evil created?

2. Assuming evil exists from an outside source, if God were omnipotent, why doesn't He stop evil from even happening?

These are basically the two questions.

I've heard omniscient as part of the question by some non believers. Basically saying either God didn't know that the serpent would temp Eve, God wasn't strong enough to stop it from happening, or that God is evil because He allowed it all to happen anyways with all the suffering and sin attributed to the fall of man afterwards. This is the way a friend once in high school tried to debate with me that God doesn't exist. I'm glad that at the time I already found God in my experiences so that couldn't shake my faith, but I didn't have an answer for my friend to help him find God too.

You can read any number of books, listen to any number of sermons, study for years, and you'll get all different kinds of answers. The correct answer is that we don't know because the bible does not tell us. God does not allow us to know. When there are such big discrepancies between theologians, it's best to leave the matter alone. We'll find out when we get to heaven.

Your right.

You did say something that is not right. You say:

might be a giant witness to everyone in the heavenly realms to not rebel, not turn away from God,

Also highlighted and bolded up above.
This idea is not feasible. There are no new angels that are falling away. They are not falling away because all the angels that rebelled and left God (1/3 of them) did that in that one time and all the rest stayed with God. So the above statement would not hold true.

Again this is my best explaination. It was meant with the impact to not have this type of event happen again. Feasible or not though I see I shouldn't suggest this theory any more. I still don't know how to answer some of the questions I've been given in the past by those who aren't Christian outside of "have faith," or don't question God," because I think they might reject those answers. But maybe those are the answers I need to give anyways and just have faith in Gid's hands He will do the rest.

I'll answer my rhetorical questions:

1. God DID NOT put satan in the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Satan was an exterior being.
2. We know that God is not a mean God. GOD IS LOVE. And He loves His creation. (us).
3. God is not responsible for our sins since He did not place satan in the garden specifically to tempt A and E.
We are responsible for our sins because of free will.
4. Which is the reason why some end up in hell. Because they do not trust in the Lord for their salvation.

Wondering

Thankyou for your answer. Again I'm sorry for posting this question in the way I did.