A reminder ...

[reba]

We have received a number of Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) complaints about their copyrighted information appearing on CF. Please refer to the Terms of Service #2.6 Use this announcement as a reminder to respect copyrighted material. Lawsuits have been started for less.

Good practice is to use one paragraph in your post, credit the source and provide a link. A link must be provided if the source is online, and full credit must be given if it is not available.

IMPORTANT - Many of the complaints have been from BibleStudy.org who do not wish any of their content be copied. Please refrain from doing this for BibleStudy.org. Instead, simply provide a link.
A reminder, from Terms of Service #2.6:
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/731/1/

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We have received a number of Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) complaints about their copyrighted information appearing on CF. Please refer to the Terms of Service #2.6 Use this announcement as a reminder to respect copyrighted material. Lawsuits have been started for less.

Good practice is to use one paragraph in your post, credit the source and provide a link. A link must be provided if the source is online, and full credit must be given if it is not available.

IMPORTANT - Many of the complaints have been from BibleStudy.org who do not wish any of their content be copied. Please refrain from doing this for BibleStudy.org. Instead, simply provide a link.
A reminder, from Terms of Service #2.6:
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/731/1/

Imagine, one Christian organization suing another.

 

[Deborah13]

Terms of Service for BibleStudy.org
http://www.biblestudy.org/terms-of-use-and-disclaimer.html

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Terms of Service for BibleStudy.org
http://www.biblestudy.org/terms-of-use-and-disclaimer.html

So Christians are stealing Christian literature from other Christians and lawsuits may occur, right?

 

[Obadiah]

So Christians are stealing Christian literature from other Christians and lawsuits may occur, right?

It happens all the time. This is nothing unusual in the real world. It's just not that hard to provide the link or the credit. If someone doesn't care enough about this site to do such a simple thing to protect it from lawsuits, maybe they should re-evaluate why they are here and ask themselves why they don't care about following this law.

 

[Deborah13]

So Christians are stealing Christian literature from other Christians and lawsuits may occur, right?

A pretty sad accounting imo.
Wonder how the world sees that kind of thing?

 

[Deborah13]

It happens all the time. This is nothing unusual in the real world. It's just not that hard to provide the link or the credit. If someone doesn't care enough about this site to do such a simple thing to protect it from lawsuits, maybe they should re-evaluate why they are here and ask themselves why they don't care about following this law.

I don't think that is Rollo Tamasi problem or point.
And it's certainly not mine. I would never deliberately do anything to endanger this site. Personally if I were a site owner, nothing on my site would be copyrighted, all would be free access and free use. I believe that is what we are suppose to be doing, promoting the Gospel. And that site threatens to sue other Christians?

 

[OzSpen]

It happens all the time. This is nothing unusual in the real world. It's just not that hard to provide the link or the credit. If someone doesn't care enough about this site to do such a simple thing to protect it from lawsuits, maybe they should re-evaluate why they are here and ask themselves why they don't care about following this law.

I've found plagiarism (stealing somebody else's material without giving credit) to be a serious issue for some in the Christian church.

I visited a new church and heard 4 of the pastor's sermons. Since I take notes when I listen to a preacher, the language I was hearing did not sound like it was original with the pastor. When I did a Google search, using the language he used, I found that three of his sermons were word-for-word from Sermon Central, but I was unable to determine the source of the fourth sermon . He had given not a word of credit to any of these sources. I made an appointment to see him to discuss this issue. He admitted that the fourth sermon was a Rick Warren sermon he had purchased from Saddleback.

I had the same issue with an elder from my own church. His messages started to improve greatly in content. Previously his content was less than average. I checked online and found all of the improved sermons were from Sermon Central. Another church member commented to my wife about how much his sermons had improved. She mentioned that he was getting them from Sermon Central. This church member made an appointment to see the elder to deal with this issue of plagiarism. Since then he has given credit with each sermon.

I've had some interaction with Sermon Central over this matter.

Oz

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thank you Deborah and Oz.
I would like to add that I have a big problem with a Christian organization willing to sue over their literature.
I can only conclude that they have a monetary investment in their literature and they are in it to make money, not share the Gospel.
Now that is an assumption, but none the less, it bothers me.

 

[OzSpen]

Thank you Deborah and Oz.
I would like to add that I have a big problem with a Christian organization willing to sue over their literature.
I can only conclude that they have a monetary investment in their literature and they are in it to make money, not share the Gospel.
Now that is an assumption, but none the less, it bothers me.

Rollo,

You raise a strong point, especially in light of 1 Cor 6:1-8 (ESV):

When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! 4 So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? 5 I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, 6 but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? 7 To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers! (Biblegateway)​

Therefore, I do not support Christians taking Christians to court. However, an issue we face today is that this passage from 1 Cor 6:1-8 (ESV) was addressed to a local church and not a parachurch organisation. I do not support Christians suing Christians, but it is made more difficult when it happens outside the local church. From my point of view, it should have ramifications at the local church level if parachurch employed Christians are suing other Christians.

Oz

 

[jasonc]

I do believe that one should post the link and where they got the sermon from. if im quoting someone I should reference them. what they are wrong, and others think its me?

 

[Deborah13]

He admitted that the fourth sermon was a Rick Warren sermon he had purchased from Saddleback.

I hope he purchased it with his own money and not the church's money.

 

[OzSpen]

I hope he purchased it with his own money and not the church's money.

Good point. I don't have a clue about the $$$ source.

I participate in a mid-week Bible study at that church and the pastor asks me to lead the group from time to time, which I did last week. So my challenging him about the source of his sermons has not become a barrier between him and me.
Oz

 

[Obadiah]

I don't think that is Rollo Tamasi problem or point.
And it's certainly not mine. I would never deliberately do anything to endanger this site. Personally if I were a site owner, nothing on my site would be copyrighted, all would be free access and free use. I believe that is what we are suppose to be doing, promoting the Gospel. And that site threatens to sue other Christians?

No, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was. But there are others that have that problem. I was in agreement with his sentiment and adding that, sad as it is, this is the real world and our members need to do their part to comply with the laws, not risk this site being sued just to try to make a point. As long as it's the law, and as long as there are people who want to make money off of Christianity (and there's lot of them) that's just the way it's going to be.

 

[Obadiah]

I hope he purchased it with his own money and not the church's money.

I really don't see why it would be a problem if he used the church's money as long as the church leadership is aware and in agreement with it. Afterall, he's using the info to improve the messages he is giving to the church. They are benefiting from it, so they should be willing to pay the expense of that if he wants them to.

We have to remember too, the gospel message is pretty simple and straight forward. After 2000 years of it's being preached, pretty much anything a pastor could say has already been said by someone else. Whether we realize it or not, almost all sermons contain content from other sermons, literature, or any number of other sources, many of which are copyrighted sources.

 

[jasonc]

I really don't see why it would be a problem if he used the church's money as long as the church leadership is aware and in agreement with it. Afterall, he's using the info to improve the messages he is giving to the church. They are benefiting from it, so they should be willing to pay the expense of that if he wants them to.

We have to remember too, the gospel message is pretty simple and straight forward. After 2000 years of it's being preached, pretty much anything a pastor could say has already been said by someone else. Whether we realize it or not, almost all sermons contain content from other sermons, literature, or any number of other sources, many of which are copyrighted sources.

that is true.

 

[Deborah13]

I really don't see why it would be a problem if he used the church's money as long as the church leadership is aware and in agreement with it.

That is what he has already been paid to do, pray, study, write, deliver a sermon. That is his job. If he wants to use someone else's because he thinks it is what is needed, fine. But he should purchase it as he has already been paid for it.
When you were working for the church, doing the sound system, etc., and if you had a substitute come in for you one day, would you expect the church to pay you and the substitute? I know you wouldn't.

 

[OzSpen]

I really don't see why it would be a problem if he used the church's money as long as the church leadership is aware and in agreement with it. Afterall, he's using the info to improve the messages he is giving to the church. They are benefiting from it, so they should be willing to pay the expense of that if he wants them to.

We have to remember too, the gospel message is pretty simple and straight forward. After 2000 years of it's being preached, pretty much anything a pastor could say has already been said by someone else. Whether we realize it or not, almost all sermons contain content from other sermons, literature, or any number of other sources, many of which are copyrighted sources.

Obadiah,

However, the issue is deliberately stealing somebody else's material without giving credit - plagiarism. When I preach, I do my own Greek exegesis before developing my sermon outline. My textual outline precedes a homiletical outline. Most of my sermons are original with me, as far as theme and outline are concerned. Of course I use illustrations to get people's attention and to illustrate some of the points I'm making. However, I do search for ways of saying it differently - even provocatively.

I don't think I'd be brave enough to agree with your statement that after 2,000 years, 'pretty much anything a pastor could say has already been said by someone else'. I've just completed the writing of my PhD dissertation (dissertation-only in the British system - 488pp, including bibliography) and I'm awaiting a date for examination of it by 2 examiners and 3 academics on Skype. One of the key issues in a research dissertation is to find a 'research gap' that I needed to investigate. This is somewhere where others had not been. In fact, in one area I found what is known as an abduction - inconsistency by the scholar I'm investigating. My supervisor said: That abduction is enough for an entire dissertation to be developed.

That's a long way around saying that I consider there are still a good number of areas of NT that still need investigation, whether by pastor or researcher, to deal with original study and research. My research is in NT studies.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

That is what he has already been paid to do, pray, study, write, deliver a sermon. That is his job. If he wants to use someone else's because he thinks it is what is needed, fine. But he should purchase it as he has already been paid for it.
When you were working for the church, doing the sound system, etc., and if you had a substitute come in for you one day, would you expect the church to pay you and the substitute? I know you wouldn't.

Deborah,

I see the issue as laziness by the pastor and elder whose example I gave. I know that preparing sermons (and I don't do it full time) is a time consuming job when one starts from scratch. I find it to be an excuse for doing necessary exegetical and homiletical work when a pastor takes his sermons from Sermon Central or purchases one from Rick Warren.

 

[Obadiah]

That is what he has already been paid to do, pray, study, write, deliver a sermon. That is his job. If he wants to use someone else's because he thinks it is what is needed, fine. But he should purchase it as he has already been paid for it.
When you were working for the church, doing the sound system, etc., and if you had a substitute come in for you one day, would you expect the church to pay you and the substitute? I know you wouldn't.

In every church were I was familiar with the budgets and contracts the pastors were not expected to pay for these type of things out of their own pockets. They were most times given a separate budget for this (not just extra pay to use as they saw fit, but a budget specifically for these type of materials that are paid for by the church) and if they needed something that went over that budget all they had to do was ask permission to spend the extra money and would almost always be given permission. (All the pastors I knew were also careful not to ask for extravagant things, but only for good value on return for the church.) Usually this type of material, once bought and paid for, comes with permission to use it in things like sermons without being required to give specific credit to the originators. Now some pastors may choose to buy something like this out of their own pay, but that is normally only their choice. I've never known a church that required this. Some may, but none of those where I have been involved in a way that I had knowledge of how they handled this required the pastor to pay out of his own personal paycheck.

As for my position as a sound engineer, yes, had they ever needed to hire someone to take my place, I would still get paid (within reason). My contract gave me a certain number of days I could take off and still be paid even if it meant they had to pay someone else to fill in. This wasn't even something I had asked for, but something they added to my contract all on their own. I never took a day off, but it was covered in my contract and I would have been paid for it.