[_ Old Earth _] A Signature of the Creator.

[John]

MUST WATCH !

http://www.drdino.com/readNews.php?id=50

What if we could see the signature of a Creator imbedded upon His creation? For years, the debate has raged: is there a God? How can we be sure? Christians are often confronted with the challenge of proving the existence of God. And yet He can be seen throughout the marvels of His creation. Romans 1:20 tells us that "the invisible things of him [God] from the creation of the world are clearly seen...by the things that are made." So can we really see an invisible God simply by looking around us?

The cuttlefish is a cephalopod which operates with such sophisticated technology that scientists today are struggling to understand just how this creature came to be. This creature is a perfect example of God's magnificent design, demonstrating stealth tactics, among other features, which include not only changing colors, but also texture, to blend in perfectly with its surroundings. If it is perched atop a barnacle-covered rock, it can conform to mirror the rock as well as the barnacles. But God's amazing creation goes further. The cuttlefish can perform this feat in a split second, and never even look at itself to examine its disguise. He does it by instinct. God is showing forth His glory through His creation.

If we see a painting, we understand there is a painter. Though we may not see him, we know he exists. If we see a complex space shuttle, we understand that this did not come about by accident. We understand that complexity demands an intelligent designer. The amazing thing is that this Designer has told us in His Word to examine His creation in order to "see" Him. And when we take a look, even at a humble sea creature such as the cuttlefish, we are amazed at the complexity and genius of His creation. In fact, when we look at something as amazing as the cuttlefish, in a way, we see God. And the last part of Romans 1:20 tells us that when we look at His creation and see Him, we are "without excuse" for not believing in a Creator.

 

[Barbarian]

So you're saying that there are no transitional organisms for any of these features? Really?

Of course organisms show us the glory of God's creation. The only difference between creationists and orthodox Christians is, we accept the way He did it.

 

[John]

So you're saying that there are no transitional organisms for any of these features? Really?

You can try your best to throw one at me but we all know what I'll say... "They are subject the the imagination of the evolutionist."

Of course organisms show us the glory of God's creation. The only difference between creationists and orthodox Christians is, we accept the way He did it.

Adaptation is wonderful and necessary thing, lets not ruin it by saying it can turn a microbe into a man.

 

[freeway]

So you're saying that there are no transitional organisms for any of these features? Really?

Of course organisms show us the glory of God's creation. The only difference between creationists and orthodox Christians is, we accept the way He did it.

John hasn't answered yet, so I will................NO........... you see what you want to see.. I see what I to see simple.... no bones.........micro sure..........macro......no

one more thing...........your saying your an orthodox Christian. sorry but evolution has been around what 150 to 200 years. Are you saying that the early christians believed in evolution... you better check your bible... and your Christianity.................. 8-) 8-)

lets put a bible in front of a child without books on evolution and science and what other christians have wrote just to make if fair..just let that child read and come to his or her own understanding of what it say... I bet......they will say 6 days of creation, Adam and Eve lived in a Garden.. Noah build a boat for the flood, and that only Noah and his family survived along with the animal that God caused to come into the ark... Jesus was born and died for our sins.... and someday he is coming back..... I don't think God will lie to them............any bets

 

[Deep Thought]

freeway/John,

Do you still believe the Sun revolves around the earth just like "orthodox" Christians believed?

 

[Barbarian]

one more thing...........your saying your an orthodox Christian.

Yep. You've had to add some things that weren't there, and removed some things that were originally there, to get to YE creationism. For example, the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism is the invention of the Seventh Day Adventists in the last century.

And St. Augustine accepted that living things ("beasts") evolved from simpler forms, about 1500 years ago.

sorry but evolution has been around what 150 to 200 years.

It's been around for about 3 billion years. YE creationism is less than a century old.

Are you saying that the early christians believed in evolution...

St. Augustine was considered orthodox by Catholics and Protestants alike.

you better check your bible... and your Christianity.................

The Bible doesn't say how God made new species, but it does specifically rule out YE creationism's "life ex nihilo" doctrine. He says that the Earth brought forth living things.

Genesis 1:24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.

Oh, and the "child as theologian" idea?

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child.

Put aside the things of a child, and become a man in Christ.

 

[John]

The Bible doesn't say how God made new species, but it does specifically rule out YE creationism's "life ex nihilo" doctrine. He says that the Earth brought forth living things.

Genesis 1:24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.

LOL you accept that bit only because it fits your world view, yet you rule out the other stuff like 6 day creation and a 6000 year old earth because it does not. You can't pick and choose, accept the whole package or don't for if you don't you make yourself look pretty stupid :

 

[Vic C.]

Yep. You've had to add some things that weren't there, and removed some things that were originally there, to get to YE creationism. For example, the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism is the invention of the Seventh Day Adventists in the last century.

Life out of nothing is not unique to YEC. OEC believers also can believe in life out of nothing. It is not an invention of the SDA. That's a first for me. Ex nihilo can be found in some of the earliest Christian Creeds and especially in the many Creeds penned during and after the Reformation.

To believe that matter always existed and is not a Creation of God is a Gnostic belief and is considered heretical by many a Christian denomination.

BTW, for the record, I am in agreement with Free and Handy... I too lean towards an Old Earth and a not-so-literalistic reading of the Creation story. However, it is a non-essential issue for believers, so it's not worth arguing. 8-)

 

[Barbarian]

Life out of nothing is not unique to YEC. OEC believers also can believe in life out of nothing. It is not an invention of the SDA.

Yep. The sort of creationism presented at the scopes trial, for example, wasn't "life ex nihilo." It really isn't possible for a Bible-believing Christian, since Genesis says that the earth brought forth life. God created life from the earth, by natural means.

That's a first for me.

Genesis 1: 24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

Ex nihilo can be found in some of the earliest Christian Creeds and especially in the many Creeds penned during and after the Reformation.

Maybe during the reformation. But I can't think of one from Apostolic sources. God created the universe ex nihilo. Life was created from existing matter.

To believe that matter always existed and is not a Creation of God is a Gnostic belief and is considered heretical by many a Christian denomination.

Indeed, but that's not what is at issue here. The universe was created from nothing. Life was not created ex nihilo; God specifically says otherwise in Genesis.

BTW, for the record, I am in agreement with Free and Handy... I too lean towards an Old Earth and a not-so-literalistic reading of the Creation story. However, it is a non-essential issue for believers, so it's not worth arguing. 8-)

It won't affect one's salvation, of course, but it can be a problem if people try to inject it into public schools.

 

[Barbarian]

LOL you accept that bit only because it fits your world view,

Rather, you reject it because it won't fit your worldview. It's just God's way of saying, in an understandable allegory, that life came forth from the earth. The details, we are just now learning.

yet you rule out the other stuff like 6 day creation and a 6000 year old earth because it does not.

The six day creation is also God explaining creation in an understandable allegory. A six thousand year earth is not a Biblical idea. It's a modern attempt to put a scientific chronology on the creation allegory. Not surprisingly, it doesn't work.

You can't pick and choose, accept the whole package or don't for if you don't you make yourself look pretty stupid

You have that much right. Might be worth thinking about, um?

 

[John]

What confuses me the most is "Yep. The sort of creationism presented at the scopes trial, for example, wasn't "life ex nihilo." It really isn't possible for a Bible-believing Christian, since Genesis says that the earth brought forth life. God created life from the earth, by natural means." Dwelling on this verse "Genesis 1: 24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so." So you believe that the earth brought forth life by natural means *cough* evolution. Yet you reject the rest of the Genesis account of God making all in 6 days, I told my father and pastor about this and you nearly gave my pastor a heart attack, he was left almost wordless, stuttering and stuff he could not grasp how someone could have this thought pattern. In fact the other day when i did another teaching on the Bible at church the whole crowd laughed. Your just cherry picking in a fashion that makes you look like one little confused person : Your contradicting your faith man.

 

[Vic C.]

I believe you may have misunderstood me. When I said, "That's a first for me", it was in reference to your SDA statement that they were the first to propose Ex nihilo. I never heard that before, but maybe one of our SDA members will clear that up.

Indeed, but that's not what is at issue here. The universe was created from nothing. Life was not created ex nihilo; God specifically says otherwise in Genesis.

Now I understand where you are coming from. Thanks for the clarification. I was confusing "creation ex nihilo" with "life ex nihilo". 8-) I agree with your statement.

 

[Barbarian]

So you believe that the earth brought forth life by natural means *cough* evolution.

Obviously, God says He produced life by natural means, but that's not evolution. Evolution is the way existing life changes, not how life came to be.

Yet you reject the rest of the Genesis account of God making all in 6 days,

No, I accept the Genesis account. I just don't accept your revision of it.

I told my father and pastor about this and you nearly gave my pastor a heart attack, he was left almost wordless, stuttering and stuff he could not grasp how someone could have this thought pattern.

We Christians sometimes have that effect on others. What kind of religion do you follow?

In fact the other day when i did another teaching on the Bible at church the whole crowd laughed. Your just cherry picking in a fashion that makes you look like one little confused person : Your contradicting your faith man.

Sorry you won't accept His word. Most Christians acknowledge that Genesis is figurative in many places, because forcing a literalist reading on it leads to logical contradictions. Of course you won't necessarily go to Hell for not accepting the way He did it, but if you do accept it His way, you'll get a closer relationship with Him.

And that might be the best thing that ever happened to you. Worth thinking about.

 

[John]

No, I accept the Genesis account. I just don't accept your revision of it.

How did i revise it? It seems to me that your the one saying things that it clearly does not.

We Christians sometimes have that effect on others. What kind of religion do you follow?

Umm. Christian.

Sorry you won't accept His word. Most Christians acknowledge that Genesis is figurative in many places, because forcing a literalist reading on it leads to logical contradictions. Of course you won't necessarily go to Hell for not accepting the way He did it, but if you do accept it His way, you'll get a closer relationship with Him.

Logical contradictions? O please go on.

I do accept the way he did it.

And that might be the best thing that ever happened to you. Worth thinking about.

Don't worry about it i am fine.

 

[Deep Thought]

John, I still don't have an answer from you as to whether you consider the entire OT to be the literal truth.

 

[John]

There are sure to be some verses in there that are not literal, i have yet to read them all. But i do believe that everything was made in 6 days and there was a great flood.

 

[Deep Thought]

Now we're getting somewhere. Can you please expand on what process you use to determine which verses are not literal?

How much of the OT have you actually read and which version/s do you have?

 

[John]

Easy i look at the logicality of the sentence or what have you a common example Jesus said he was a door, now this does not mean a literal wooden door. But there is nothing Illogical about " For in 6 days god created the heavens and the earth and all that in them is. Exodus something. how do you guys work about that Bible quote? For in 6 days god created the heavens and the earth and all that in them is

 

[Deep Thought]

OK, how about these parts of the OT - literal or non-literal

1. Talking serpent

Genesis 3:1-5 (King James Version)

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2. Talking Donkey

Numbers 22:21-30 (King James Version)

And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his ass, and went with the princes of Moab.

And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way.

But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.

And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again.

And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.

And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff.

And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.

And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? and he said, Nay.

 

[John]

Yup literal. Why Not? Did you notice how Eve was not surprised by a talking snake? Maybe when everything was perfect in the garden humans could talk to animals? Just a thought don't bash me on it, lol

Also God used many way to talk to people, a burning bush, a whirlwind, a donkey, etc.